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American Bully - part 2

was searching molosser dogs and came across my really old thread, heres my boy on the flirt pole and some bitework

flirt pole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4--H7NYAjgI

 

truck guard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0-IOkXe__E

 

bite work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXCKj-27EfY

 

 

I have had a little experience with the American Bully. As far as I can tell they are basically a companion dog. They are bred for looks. I am also on a Bully site where I post, blog, comment, etc. What i have learned from them is that they bred them to basically have the look of a pit bull but not be dog aggressive. I've seen a lot of inconsistency within the breed. You can have some nice looking dogs the breed and there's a good chance that the litter will not resemble the parents. I hear about a lot of health problems. Dogs that don't breathe well. too low to the ground, feet going inwards and outwards, crooked tails, etc. I hears some are so bad that they are carried around instead of being walked. The worst they are often they are sold as being the baddest of the bad. There is way too much infighting in the bully community. Many are good dog people, Also many don't know anything but want to earn a living off of their dogs.

 

I recall speaking to the owner of the site when some guys wanted me to evaluate his dogs for protection work. I was told don't wast my time. They can't do it. He had beautiful dogs. But the site owner was correct. The dogs didn't have the temperament for protection work. It would be good for a Stack Off competition. I believe that there are some exceptions to the rule. Sure they will look good doing hang time, but won't protect.

 

They also have a so-called new breed they call Exotics. This is allegedly 2 American Bully bred together and produced a different breed the "Exotic". Impossible, but they will stand by it. Others will call them out on it. Everyone knows that it is the American Bully mixed with a French Bulldogs or a English Bulldog. Again no consistency. There appears to be an excessive amount of hanging papers. Even with all of this going on it is a very popular dog. Even the most unhealthy is popular. I would have considered having a couple of them, but it is not functional enough for my taste. I'm also afraid that if I did breed I would hate if my pups don't look like their parents. They might look like some of the other breed put in their used to create this breed.

theres a few different types of bullies in the bully world

about 10 years ago or so the thing was to have huge dogs, so you have what they call the xxl bully. These are pitbulls crossed with various types of mastiffs to produce extremely large dogs.

You then have the bully that you mentioned, short, low to the ground etc.

The newest craze is the pocket pits, which are the very small bullies crossed with english bulldogs and even french bulldogs.

I consider my dog more of a bandogge than a bully, because he is a pitbull that was outcrossed to various type of mastiffs and he is not built like the dogs you mentioned. If i had to guess I would say he has cane corso and mixed in somewhere down the line but I will never know and of course the UKC papers say hes a pure pit which he obviously isnt. 

The bully scene is more or less ran by a bunch of gangsters, I am familiar with the whole scene and had my dogs in atomic dogg magazine and blah blah blah back in the day.

Because of my dogs build and the fact that he was outcrossed to a my best guess a cane corso he is much more like a bandogge than your typical bully. 

You can see his build in this picture, he is a lean 90 lbs and he is doing great in his bitework training. He is also 10 years old! everyone is always amazed at how old he is and never would guess his age, usually they guess about 2 or 3 years. I just started his bitework training at 10 years old and he is doing really good. 

 

 

 

 

 

You have a nice dog. He has some prey drive.  He doesn't display the same drive to a dog that has been doing bite work since a pup. That's fine to me. I don't typically start bite work with my pups either.  I work on obedience first. Many teach biting first. They will excel in biting. I have a few questions. In the video the dog bites the sleeve in the truck. It looks like the decoy might be the owner.  How does he do with a stranger as the decoy? In the bite work video he looks like he's working with the owner again.  He didn't look like he was trying to get the man. He's biting the sleeve when presented. This is good for developing drive. But will he run off a stranger?  Have you done some muzzle work with him so that he tries to bite and shows aggression even though he can't bite? 

Actually, most sleeve trained dogs are focused on the sleeve rather than the person wearing it. It becomes a game to them to get the sleeve. You can see many videos of the dog taking the sleeve and then walking away.  How about this one! watch to the end.

http://molosserdogs.com/m/videos/view/Terrible-dog

 

Gary

I have seen this video many times.  I believe I've seen this decoy work some different dogs. He's good. That dog is awesome. I have no doubt that the dog would protect my  family and home.  

yeah thats me playing with him with the sleeve. I just recently have been getting some pro training. working on focusing on the the decoy not the sleeve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgNYMYL6Wao

I watched the video and gave it a thumbs up.  With more work he should take the sleeve and throw it down and try to take a bite out of the man. Also, with a muzzle on still try to get the man. 

that was only his 2nd training session. just getting him started but he seems to be doing good. My other 2 I tested and dont seem quite cut out for it but he is doing pretty good. He has a nautral guardian and territory protecting instinct but going to have to work on him fully engaging. something I have always wanted to do with my dog but never gotten around to until now!

good pic of my dog, looks like a corso influence for sure

maobirthday031.jpg82.5K81 views

He looks very serious and ready to work. Great conditioning.

I hope you keep us updated on his progress. I believe he will continue to do well and will get better. It's good when you find those dogs that will do the work that you want them to do.

 

This is one of my dogs first time seeing a sleeve do doing any agitation.

https://youtu.be/elcrmKoQe_A

 

This I one of my pups I was training for his owner to protect his property.

https://youtu.be/CF3sDOQ4C4s

 

cool videos I am interested in presas, I would like to see them work in person

Heres a video of us working some other dogs besides mine. Here is a well trained malinois. Man these dogs are impressive. I have never really seen any other breeds of dog with drive like that other then pits.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lcKT9NQw_4

They have a lot of drive. They are high energy dogs. They ate smart and agile.  This is why they are preferred in police work. They can get up and over a fence or wall better than most breeds. Being smaller than other working, guardian breeds helps them with that. 

haha man you are right about them being athletic agile etc.

We have heavy equipment caterpillars on my property, my friend hid in the cat, mal did a search, was having a difficult time finding him and climbed the cat!

The dogs are also extremely fast.

We have had several break ins to steal stuff out of our contractor yard. We have even released my dogs on people before but they made it to the fence before my dog got them.

It makes me think that having a very fast dog such as a mal is better than a large powerfull dog for security. or maybe a 2 dogs. A fast one to catch him and large one to finish him off.

 

on a side note heres a clip of my boy on the spring pole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxNaEDyT_7U

I like the Mal. But it's a little too small for me. However, they fit within the range of what is said to be a good size for a protection dog. They are perfect if you need a police dog. It can go over a fence or climb a wall when needed to assist in apprehending a suspect. But for guarding my home and personal protection I prefer a bigger dog. A 65llb Mal can be tossed over a fence by a average person. That become more difficult when you have a 80 to120 lbs dog. Not only will they use their size and force and motion to take down a man they posses a greater bite pressure having larger heads. Of course a bigger dog the size is more intimidation which is perfectly fine with me too. But the problem I have with dogs over 120 lbs is they lose agility. They will bite hard. But if I'm in the yard doing  some yard work. I'm not paying close attention. If someone were to try to catch me or my family unaware the bigger dog would be seconds too slow. That can be the difference in life or death. My dogs aren't going to be that far away that I need the speed of a mal. I don't need to send them over a fence to catch a person. 

 

If I had a number of acres to protect with livestock I would choose a larger breed like the Caucasian Ovcharka. They are big enough to fight off large predators. They are agile enough to protect the land. They are watchful enough to watch over the family and livestock.

But for my current situation my presas fit my ideal type of dog. They tend to stay in close proximity. They are serious about the work. They are not too big or too small. They are fast and have enough size. They will run off anything on 2 or 4 legs. They can catch and hold wild boars even though mine are unlikely to ever encounter one. At 9 month one of my females stopped a huge longhorn bull that was charging towards me. She wasn't for sale at the time, but I had to have her afterwards. They are big enough that unwanted neighbors will avoid them. They are big enough that if the unwanted neighbor foolishly attempts to come in anyway they can and will stop them.

 

The Mal will need a lot more exercise. They need to burn off some of that high energy. They are perfect for demonstration dogs for dog trainers. Because they have such a high ball drive they will do anything for the reward(ball). Their bark and show of teeth are great for crowd control. Again that is more police work. But I've seen too many that were just sleeve happy. They only want to sleeve as their toy. They have no interest in biting the man coming in my home without an invitation. Most are trained to want the sleeve. A number of them when they are tough getting the sleeve is a game they don't ever translate that to being serious about protection the family. Most breeds never make that transition. Breeds like the molosser dogs are often more serious about protection. They can be taught the game and serious work. With many other types they have to either good sports dog or a good protection dog. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

Basically it is a person preference as to which you should have. Most people thing bigger is better. Other believe a certain breed is better. We all like what we like. Too many just follow the latest trend. They often parrot what they have heard others says. But they lack the experience and lack the knowledge.

 

More than 20 years ago I had a neighbor. One day he stopped me and wanted to talk to me about my dogs. I knew he was going to complain about how many I had and that they were barking too much. In my opinion they didn't bark much unless there was a reason. Out of courtesy and respect I stopped to listen to his gripe. He then thanked me for having those dogs. He stated that his home was being broken into one and sometimes more a week. He showed me where they would take his entire window frame out to come in. Then they would put it back up to make it look as if no one had been there. I had no idea this was going on. But he said that every since I got those dogs they have stopped breaking into his home. Those big dogs size and bark were intimidation enough to even protect my neighbor's property. It wasn't so much that they were going to jump the fence and run them away from his property. But they were going to bark and someone might hear them and see them. Then there would be witnesses to the crime that could call the police or identify them.  I left feeling pretty good about how my dogs helped him. I felt good too that he wasn't complaining but he was thanking me.

I agree with most of what you said. I recall a long time ago a thread about dog size and whats best etc. there was a video of a mal that the police let go on a very large man. The dog bit the arm and did not let go. The man picked the dog up and slammed it a few times but the dog did not let go. I guess the point that I am trying to make is that even if the dog is small, it can still do so much damage that even a very large man is going to have a hard time dealing with the dog. And if he did manage to get the dog off of him, its just going to bite again in a different location a split second later.

I have never seen a presa in person, only online. There are some that seem kinda of short and stubby looking, similar to bullies, and there are some that are more leggy.

i live in one of the most dangerous cities in california. my yard is a very large yard with heavy equipment. There really is nothing worth stealing on my property but the crackheads dont know that and like to break in to investigate.

I dont have any room for anymore dogs as my dogs dont even get along with eachother so theres no way to bring in an outside dog. that being said a live stock guardian breed might do the job for me

 

 

But the problem I have with dogs over 120 lbs is they lose agility. They will bite hard. But if I'm in the yard doing  some yard work. I'm not paying close attention. If someone were to try to catch me or my family unaware the bigger dog would be seconds too slow. That can be the difference in life or death.

 This is a great topic of discussion and I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this topic. I am particularly quoting the three sentences above just so you know that I agree with everything except this statement.  Though I disagree, it is not to be taken as disagreeing with your overall view.

Here is where I differ - a dog that weighs 120 lbs in general may be slower than smaller dogs.  HOWEVER, and this is the main point - it depends on the breed and their function.  Case in point is that the Central Asian and Caucasian Ovcharka are very large dogs and are some of the most athletic and agile dogs I have seen. They can go from zero to flat out in nothing flat, turn on a nickel and give you change.  I have seen my CO jump over my picnic table without touching and make short work of my 5 foot fence.  In the past one of our dogs (Caesar, r.i.p) jumped the 6 foot table lengthwise. 

There are also other heavy mastiff type dogs that may hit that weight mark of 120 lbs and could still perform these athletic feats with proper conditioning. Over the next few days while it is still a bit cool in Texas I will try to capture some videos of the dogs in action to show on here.

As you know, we typically discuss breeds in general but there are exceptions in every breed.  Generally I do agree with your posts - just wanted to point out that there are very large dogs that are bred to be athletic and agile because their life, and the livelihood of their owners depend on it in their natural environments - being a livestock guardian. Most people who see an LGD with a flock laying in a yard, just see a big lazy looking dog - that is a mistake. 

Thank you again EGP, Cawkazan - I do enjoy reading your posts and seeing your photos and videos.

Gary Sicard

thanks yeah, i like the larger dogs but.......the dogs need to be built correctly to be athletic. Lets take for example the bully kutta dogs. They are pretty much built like a game apbt more or less, they are just 100 lbs. Compare that to many of the dogs here, such as mine for example, he is athletic etc but not as much as a leggier dog. If you could take a dog like a mallinois, keep the same build, but make it a 100 lbs dog. you would have a very large strong athletic dog. Just using that as an exmaple im sure you guys get what im trying to say. 

big large strong athletic dogs, with legs! lol

 

Image result for bully kutta Image result for bully kuttaImage result for bully kutta

I agree there are some larger breeds that are agile. The Boerboel is considered to be agile. In my opinion they are agile for a dog of their size. But they will not be as agile as a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Just like my breed preference is the Presa. I like their athleticism, temperament, etc. But there are those that breed them to be oversized. Now there is no maximum weight for the presa. But once they get to be to a certain size they lose some of their athleticism. For one dog it might 120lbs. Another dog it might be 135lbs. The 120 number I used is a generalization. It is not an exact figure. I recall at the Monogrphica they had a 145 puppy (18Mo). It was earning a title for defense of handler. He hit the sleeve very hard. But it took it too long to travel 100 yards or so. My 95lbs dog could have gone there an back in the same time frame. My 125bs dog would have gotten there sooner. But no matter his weight he would have never been as fast as the other dog. He is still very fast. She is faster than most. She is an exception.  Training a grate dane it was the hardest hitting dog training that day. But it was slow as I don't know what in comparison to all of the other dogs. In my house the Dane is ideal. In my yard my presa is. Gong for walk either will work.

Regarding if a Mal was 100 pounds: The Germans shepherd today are often 100lbs. They are still used for police work. But the Mal or Dutch Shepherd is preferred today because they are smaller and more agile. Since my needs are not police dogs and more for personal protection and property protection I chose for my personal preference a large breed dog. I've seen pit bulls get tossed over a fence while biting a person. They bite hard. But the size is too small for me. They can do the same work and excel in it. But I just prefer something bigger. I would have some Caucasian Shepherd if not for the long hair.  I know they have a short hart breed too, but I like the long hair one better. Who know I may still end up getting a CO one day. I haven't ruled it out. I like the look and the temperament.

check out the central asian ovcharka, nice looking dogs. I like the kangal also but there seems to be alot of confusion about them. I am not going to get any breed of dog without seeing it in person. The boerboel I have seen in person, athletic for their size, but yeah smaller more lean built dogs are much faster. I dont see how anyone can toss a pit over a fence if its got a good hold of their arm and wont let go. Im not into the police work, more personal protection, with home/yard protection being the priority. My home defense program currently involves myself, a shotgun, and 3 pitbulls. 

not my dog but a bully built more like a bandogge here

 

http://mindchangingkennel.com/myfiles/files/2_American_Bandog_GUAPO.jpg

There was a caught on tape video of a pit bull attacking a man. The guy threw it over the fence to get it off. I can't say. How much training it had, but it was a good bite. The pit bull can excel in personal protection. They are game. They get too much bad press. Also, there are many myths associated with them. They don't have that lock down jaw or the bite pressure that they're said to have. Those are just urban myths. As those myths grew they became more popular and got into the hands of people that shouldn't own dogs. They were used for illegal purposes. Drug dealers and gang members used them. You could get them for cheap and everybody got them because of their reputation and bred them. Now we have 150 plus dogs being called pit bulls and tiny dogs being called micro pit bulls. All of the paper hanging and so called breeders ruining the gene pool. It happens with mant other breeds too, especially if they become popular.

Since we have mentioned home protection. I'd say the owners of these dogs homes are protected well. This is why I have not ruled out getting one of these in the future. They are awesome. They are intimidating. After seeing some in person I came away even more impressed.

Yeah bro I hear what your saying. I live in san bernardino, bout the same as in detroit. all kinds of knuckle heads with "pits" that want to feed them gun powder and whatever other nonsense.

I have a question for you. I cannot work my dog as often as I would like..........unless I am the one doing the work.

Would it be ok to agitate him myself?

Get him focused on me rather than the sleeve myself? etc etc.

If I can work him by myself, I can work him alot more. 

But I have been told not to do this.

 

if i can work him myself i could do it every day, he gets pretty bored around the house and really enjoys working.

Ever since the city filed bankruptcy, its turned into the wild west. Its nickname is San Murderdino. However after that terrorist attack, the city has final cleaned up a bit. I am happy to say that my part of town is much better than it was before. 

Personally I wouldn't have my dog focus on biting me. Sure you can build a dog's drive by doing this. But will the dog take the job serious and bit a stranger? That is the real question. This can vary for dog to dog and fro breed to breed in my opinion. When teach a dog personal protect you teach the dog to get between you and the threat. You teach the dog that it wins. This build the dog confidence and desire to do it's job. You can also teach the dog when it should protect. I understand there are those that will teach the dog using prey drive and they allow the dog to bite them wearing a sleeve. They are not using the dog's protective nature to drive the dog to defend and bite.

 

It's been years since I've been to San Bernadino. I don't recall it being anything like Detroit...lol I live in an Urban area. It regularly ends up on the list as one of 10 (most dangerous cities)worst cities for crime or violent crimes. I want my dog to protect me and my family. So I use strangers to agitate them. Not just one stranger. I use multiple. Also, I don't want the dog to only look for the sleeve. We train with and without. WE use hidden sleeves, muzzles, sleeves, and bite suits. We use guns to make sure the dog don't run away if guns are being fired. You can teach the dog to bite the hand with a weapon and to bite the leg and arm that is striking. Those things are up to us. You can even teach it to bite the groins. These thing are between you and your trainers.

i dont like having to rely on other ppl to work my dog, because I cant work him as much as I want to but what I have been told and what you said makes perfect sense. He is at the begining stages now so I dont want to mess up, and have him confuse the sleeve, or a game, vs protection. 

I was told the only thing I should really do myself with him is flirt pole. 

I would say that he does have some sort of idea of protection vs a game though. The reason I think this, is because his behavior is much different with other people, especially men, if I am not around and its just him and my wife. 

If someone gets too close, and its just my wife, he will bark, growl, and snap at them. This was before I ever did any bitework with him too. 

I have also been told that this behavior is him, owning or claiming my wife or something along those lines. 

It has been over 30 years since I've been there. I'm quite sure much has changed. It was quiet and beautiful. I was on my way to LA and Inglewood.

I understand that it can be hard and at time difficult to get others to work your dogs. While I will not say it is wrong for a person to work their own dogs. I can only say that I don't do that. I do use a flirt pole too. I prefer not to teach my dog that it is okay to bite me. I know the dog is smart enough to know it's a sleeve. So it's not really biting me. I don't want the dog conditioned to biting a sleeve that it won't bite the man. This is why we vary the tools that we use. The dog has to show the same willingness no matter what the conditions may be. These are my personal preferences.

yeah it makes sense and I agree with that. I will do the same. Which means I will have to rely on others.

I just wish there was something else that I could do with him, myself. 

I am open to suggestions if you have any?

Personally I wouldn't say it was him owning your wife. I believe that was his protective instinct working. It can also be that your wife may have felt uneasy or uncomfortable  when those guys came around. Some people would say the dog sense this. But It has to do more with hormones. Your wife body release a hormone and the dog can pick up the hormone. It would be similar to the one they a dog gives off that say danger and other dogs will smell it that are nearby and they all begin to react to it even though they all did see the initial danger.

the city has changed alot in 30 years, baseline is like skidrow. City has a huge homeless population, meth and crack problem, and those 3 things bring crime etc. You can search a San Bernardino crime map if you are really interested. It kind of reminds me of how back in the day compton was nice and then kinda went to shit. 

yeah i didnt agree really with him "owning" my wife either. I think he knows. 

I had never seen it myself but there was another instance where some people that broke into the yard before, were really bold and continued to come by and case our house. They were at the back fence and she let him out and he rushed the fence like he was going after another dog/cat etc. I wasnt home at the time and never saw him act like this. Because of this situation we installed a new fence, during the new fence installation until it was complete, we had NO fence, which was a real shitty few weeks. Each night I would do a "patrol" with my gun and my dog, for people to see. And every night I would encourage him to "get" them on our patrol, I think he learned from this. Now if someone is at the fence hes on them like you were dangling a rabbit in his face. 

Today I was playing with him with the sleeve, and after I gave him the sleeve, I was able to agitate him enough to forget the sleeve and focus on me, I got him to forget about the sleeve, bark at me quite a bit, and everytime I got close, I would let him win and back away, I even got him to chase me a few times, and also did a few running away from with the sleeve on, and half climbed the fence, and got him to take the sleeve while I was doing that(simulating someone in the yard trying to make it to the fence). But afterwards I was thinking, what am I doing? I am going against the advice I was given. That being said I know that he does not want to bite or hurt me, my sleeve is open hand, its covered but theres no protection there if that makes sense, so you cant see my hand, but theres no protection on the hand. and of course he like to go for the hand, so thats how me and him both learned, theres no protection on the hand! Because of this, he is hesitant on my sleeve sometimes cause he doesnt want to hurt me. With other people theres no hesistation though. point im trying to make is that he wont bite me. 

 

Long story short, I will not be doing any sleevework with him myself. But I feel he is pretty smart and is getting the idea. 

My suggestion is to keep using the flirt pole.  Dogs like to chase. It's part of their instinct to hunt. The reward is when they finally get to bite or catch the prey. Have him chase a ball or some other toy. Make sure his obedience is good.  Make sure he has a strong recall.  Also make sure he will out on command. That is just as important as biting.  

 

I can't say for certain without personally observing but I think the barking he did at you was probably out if excitement and play.

 

It sounds like he possess some good protection instinct.  It's up to you to get with a good trainers to polish it. 

so quick update.

long story short, someone broke into my utility trailer the other day.

The guys you see me doing the bitework with in the video are more of acquaintances than friends, the original deal was for them to work my dog and they can use my yard because they didnt have anywhere to work their dogs(they run a business), well now they want me to pay, which I cannot afford and am not willing to do.

So basically if I am going to work my dog, it is going to be me doing it alone. at this point i am thinking me working my dog myself is better than nothing.

any suggestions.

 

 

I created a group on facebook to hopefull connect with some like minded people.    IE protection dogs, please join. to help me network

I don't have any other suggestion other than keep using the flirt pole to use the dog's natural instinct to chase.

 

I'm not on Facebook. I know that may sound odd to most people today.

I don't have any other suggestion other than keep using the flirt pole to use the dog's natural instinct to chase.

 

I'm not on Facebook. I know that may sound odd to most people today.

i suggest you get on there. Forums have kinda died down because of all these facebook "groups" its essentially a forum on facebook. its very active for every breed, it would be a good place for you to network with your presas. I am on a group called old country blood, which very much reminds me of this forum back when it was really active.