Forums Home
 
Forums  ›  General Discussions  ›  General Forum MD
 

I Remember When...

I just got a cup of coffee and came on the MD site to look around and see what is new and it occurred to me to write this little topic.  

You see, there was a time, about 8 years ago, when members of websites, discussion forums, gallery sites, etc.. were not afraid to discuss things relating to their dogs. One could find a bounty of information simply by reading a forum.  Discussions were thorough and opinions were expressed freely and sometimes very forcefully. Many people would participate in the discussions and there was great learning to be achieved. For instance when someone asked about the temperament of the Caucasian Ovcharka, owners, breeders, fanciers, and dog experts would chime in. A discussion about the difficulties in breeding Neapolitan Mastiffs because of human intervention proves enlightening when the discourse is debated from all sides as in this topic. There are many more discussions that are actually discussions and full of great information in the forum.

So what has happened? I think the emergence of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, p Interest, etc have relegated discussions to posting short nonsensical sentences or just clicking like, or thumbs up/down buttons.  It is assumed that we no longer have to actually think and write something, after all there is so much other things we have to click on, who has time to actually think and write.

Yes, I remember when it may take a day or two to get an answer to a question posted in forums because you would actually think about it and formulate your opinion and then write something that was designed to inform, convince, or motivate to action.  We would use an actual keyboard on which typing was easy, we had real computer screens on which to compose our thoughts (I still do).  Many of us now use a mobile device to visit websites but mostly to check their activity stream on large social networks and construct any response using a minuscule onscreen keyboard that was not designed for typing many words.

So, why construct a masterpiece of words on the giant social networks and then as soon as you press "post" it is relegated to the dustbin of likes, pins, pokes, tweets, never to be found again?

I think it is time to take our discussions and information sharing seriously and start contributing to the standalone dog sites and specific interest social networks again. Most websites and forums will allow members to post, create discussions, comments, and upload photos just like the major social nets.  So, next time you have an inspiration or a nagging question, please find a specific website (search google, yahoo, bing) for your interest and take the time to write there.  More people will see it and appreciate it than if you post it on FB, Twitter or others and it is gone to the bottom of the info stream as soon as you press "post."

Yes, I do remember the good old days of us actually having relevant discussions such as this one about coat color genetics in the Neo. One could learn something from the shared knowledge of others. Yes, I remember when.... a topic like this would have some responses. :) 

Gary

I for one am grateful and happy with the existence of MD. Its members have helped me out with advise and solutions over the years.  I love seeing and reading about all the fantastic breeds out there and owned by every member. I must say i hate facebook. Dropped it for some time. . . But then, it won. I had to return because of business related issues. I believe like everything, it to will pass. And quality over fast shallow content will prevail. I dont consider myself an expert on anything other then krav, but i will chip in my two cents on this forum if i get the chance to contribute. Maybe something i experience with my dogs can help out someone else, and that alone should be worth my short investment in time to post on the forum.

Keep up the good work MD. Thanks!

gsicard,

I have discovered this in dogs & in horses. Where have all the thinkers gone? Where have all the deep discussions gone?

I was lucky to have been born into a family of very old fashioned people. I have sat under the table as  a child & listened to the old men discussed breeding practices, manner of testing their breeding stock for breeding worthiness, hardness & the weaknesses they found in their own lines & the lines of others. Those were good days. There were arguments, fusses & loud heated discussions. Those were good days & they were good men with superb dogs. At those tables you spoke your mind but first you had to know enough to speak. You had to spend the time in the trenches as a grunt before you had enough knowledge to ask questions. Hence why I stayed under the table as a very young child. I listened & was fascinated so whatever they said I absorbed like a sponge. I saved my questions for my parents or the old men when they weren't having a pow-wow. They were patient & a little fascinated because I was a serious child intent on learning.

As a young adult I got a shock to learn those discussions died with the old men. People no longer sat in conference with each other. The world had changed a great deal while I was growing up. I went seeking the old councils & found few existed. Breedworthiness was replaced by the world of ribbons & trophies. It was a foreign place to me. When my parents' dogs were tested it was testing done in live theatre deployment, on the job & it was real. We had Dobes who would hunt, fish, gather the livestock & protect the family & farm at any cost. Ribbons & trophies were fun but they weren't the be-all, end-all for a breeding dog or their offspring, their usefulness, their grit, their fire for the work.  This was the true prize for the breeder. The dog who guarded hearth & home was as valuable as the trophy winner, even more so. It wasn't that their dogs were not judged by outside people, they were judged by the mass of old men who learned from generations of dogmen.

In my short lifetime I've seen many breeds leave the building the same as the old men, the same as those hard discussions. The message boards have done the same & it's a sad thing.  Where are young people interested in someday becoming future breeders to learn from, to hear ideas far & wide, from people all over the world about dogs, breeding, health, handling, training. I feel sorry for them. Twitter is but a sound byte. Facebook has it's uses but it's also full of bullies. That's another problem with the world these days. There are all these little cyber bullies who are very good trolls & not much good for anything else. When a good discussion on a message board takes place they come in on their high-horses ready to slay dragons (translates to anyone who thinks differently than they do).  Trolls don't bother me, I've been known to eat a few & ignore them as called for but they bother a lot of folks who leave the table when the nonsense starts. I've seen these people destroy some very exciting & deep level discussions. I've been threatened (sometimes ugly threats) by such people. It doesn't really pay off as they expect when they attempt to threaten me.

I agree with you that it is due time to put thought & effort into this sharing of information, the discussions & fussings that take place when we have such discussions is part of growing, part of learning. In my way of thinking the dogs are worth the time & effort. I miss those discussions. I learn from them. I hope I can bring something of interest to the table. Many of the breeds discussed on the board I am unfamiliar with so I find myself fascinated to learn. The dogs benefit when we have these discussions & they're certainly deserve it.

 

Jeepers wrote: ...it is due time to put thought & effort into this sharing of information, the discussions & fussings that take place when we have such discussions is part of growing, part of learning. In my way of thinking the dogs are worth the time & effort.

That and a compendium of other thoughts and events are what prompted me to really write the original post today. I miss the discussions that made us think, pause, reconsider, wonders, and most of all learn. Learning is what I find most absent from the current networks today as it appears that there is no substantive level of thinking applied to the "discussions" on most forums including FB.  

We still have very smart people who sometimes read the postings on the forums but chose not to participate for various reasons.  Could it be that over time they have seen that their words are not read and processed and have chosen to save the energy by not participating?  Sometimes I feel that way and here is why.  I have a hiking group at Meetup.com where we take hikers out into nature on weekends. I have noticed that instead of reading the description of the hikes, members will just post a comment asking questions that are already answered in the hike description. What time does it start, how long is the hike, what is the pace, when will we finish, etc etc... 

This points to a general apathy toward reading and understanding which I think is at the crux of the matter. Why read two paragraphs when you can just ask a specific question and get a one or two word answer? The answer is simply that technology and connectivity have made us lazy.  They have relegated most of us to living for the little blips of "life" that crosses the screens of our little shiny mobile devices.... so on to dogs.

Contactcombat wrote: ...And quality over fast shallow content will prevail. I dont consider myself an expert on anything other then krav, but i will chip in my two cents on this forum if i get the chance to contribute.

 Edward Mayhew in 1854 made the following observation: Dogs are intelligent and honorable creatures, and no man will have reason to regret who teaches himself to trust in their better qualities. 

If we agree that dogs are intelligent and honorable creature how can we not invest the time and effort needed to discuss, learn, and share our knowledge about them? I have found that dogs pay more attention to us than we do to them every day. They know when we have a good day and a bad day, when we are ill, happy, or angry and they always want to be with us regardless of how we feel.

Since 1998 we have raised 7 Caucasian Ovcharkas and one thing that is obvious from that experience is that though they are from the same breed they are very different individual dogs. Each is individually unique in temperament, behavior, and expression. Here is the learning that took place from this experience - Individual dogs do not make a breed, nor does a breed dictate the specific behavior of an individual dog.

Let us have some fun with this one.. do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

Gary

 - Individual dogs do not make a breed, nor does a breed dictate the specific behavior of an individual dog.

Completely agree with this statement !

but being now a first time dog owner i sometimes don't feel it's my place to give people advise since i, myself am still a novice.

3 years ago i was thrown in a lovely world... The dog world And this site has given me alot of advise  and help along the way. I asked alot of questions and received alot  of answers and learend from them. I hope sites like this remain in existance, they offer so Much to new dog owners or to dog owners who changed to a more challenging breed. 

Thank you Gary for all the work you have put and keep putting into this site ! 

 

but being now a first time dog owner i sometimes don't feel it's my place to give people advise since i, myself am still a novice.

 Actually, your thoughts on any dog related items would be welcome as it may give us a different perspective. It is through the ideas of others that we (the old people) continue to learn - and think openly about "new" ideas. You can always feel free to post on this site as we are non judgmental and will not put up Trolls or rude behavior.. so - go for it when you see something you want to chime in about. :)

Gary

I whole heartedly agree with that statement.

Ideally the superior individuals in a breed are what should be used to further the breed. When I look at training someone's dog or handling my own everything is looked at the individual first. I had a Collie who exemplified all the traits of her breed but from long ago. She would have no problem aggressively defending me, her two tiny Chihuahua charges, her chickens. She was fearless but she also understood herding her humans wasn't necessary, herding naughty humans who didn't listen to the rules were another matter. So if you came to our home & let your kids run wild, you would find old Tucker herding your children away from barbed wire fences, horses, snakes, etc... Her breed gave her the instinct to herd but how she processed & dealt with it was all about the individual. I hear all the time how yappy Collies are, as if this is a breed trait. Some individuals are more vocal than others however training & handling shape the individual just the same as nature does.

My Giant Schnauzer possesses livestock guardian traits. This surprised me a great deal. Our Pyranees could go out with our horse herd but other dogs would most likely be driven out or killed by the mares. Yet my Giant would go out & make the mares get up if they lay too long.  She posses this natural time clock for what's 'normal' & when it's time to rouse them up. She could read our herd of cattle & know what cows she could go into the pasture with & which she dare not approach. I expected this of my Great Pyranees but not my Giant Schnauzer.  We no longer live on the farm ((sigh)) but it was the best place to see what came natural to a dog.

I think when bred properly the breed instincts are there but the individual & how they process & act on these instincts are what makes dogs so fascinating.

I F*****in love Md its a place to express and share experiences with like minded people and still has an enormous amount of useful information within it.Long live MD 

Thank you very much. Through this site I have learned a lot and gotten to know some wonderful people all over the world.  It is fantastic to discuss the dogs that bind us together and the learn from each other. 

Gary

MD is great and you are doing a great job!
Thanks for this !

I miss the days of discussions and active forums. When like ppl would get together and bounce idea's of working, breeding and training off one another. 

Social media is terrible for good discussion and tends to turn into a ego driven pissing match 90% of the time.

Ok then - lets do this. At some point in my ramblings on this topic, and partly the reason I started it in the first place, I thought I would pose a few questions to stimulate some substantive discussions (in my opinion). The emergence of giant social media with mega millions of users have really caused most consumers of the social stream to severely reduce their time spent on any one topic. After all there is so many different bits of data screaming for attention the most users are overwhelmed and resort to pressing the like button of posting one liners. Heck, I am guilty of it sometimes. With that said, lets jump in.

1.  Do the National Dog Registries (AKC, CKC, UKC, FCI, etc,) and their supporting national breed clubs contribute to the demise, health issues, lack of working abilities and the destruction of their true temperament?  A few examples would be nice.

2.  Are there any good reasons to take a rare breed (in the USA a rare breed is anyone that is not recognized with the AKC) and seek AKC recognition?  If so, please explain. You may also apply this question to your own country and breeds and discuss that.

3.  Will you buy a puppy without a contract? For the record I have never bought a puppy with a contract nor have I sold any with a contract.  Good or bad - go for it.

4.  Should guardian breeds (specifically Livestock Guardian Breeds) only be owned and kept by those who has a job for them to do, preferably guarding property and livestock.

5.  This one is very very easy.  Should the American Pit Bull Terrier be banned or should stupid owners be banned.

Ok, that may be enough for now so lets see how it goes.  :) 

Jump in and press the like button.. just kidding.

Gary

I enjoy this site. I love to come here and learn about different breeds that I have never heard of or that I have little or no experience. I would love to see more discussions.

I like the questions that this had led too as well. I think that each one could be its own discussion topic. I don't use facebook. There is a facebook page for our dogs. I have never used it. I don't even have access to it. I don't know what is on it. I do know there are pictures of our dogs and a lot for "facebook friends". My son created the page and use it.  guess he still does things on there. The problem I see with social media is that people are not really that social unless you are part of their closely knit group and even then they might not be that social.

 

1.  Do the National Dog Registries (AKC, CKC, UKC, FCI, etc,) and their supporting national breed clubs contribute to the demise, health issues, lack of working abilities and the destruction of their true temperament?  A few examples would be nice.

- ANS -  I have often heard people blaming AKC or other registries for ruining a breed. I disagree. If a breed is ruing or harmed in anyway the fault in my opinion lies within the breeders. Breeding and showing a dog does not change its temperament or working abilities. It does not cause health issues. AKC, UKC, FCI do not create the standards for the breeds. These standards are created by the parent registries that submits their breeds for registry.

We have breeders that do not use any selective breeding practices. The results are that many dogs that should not be bred are being bred. They breed for exotic colors even if that means breeding a dog that is not the same breed and lying on the paperwork to say its purebred or a pedigree dog. There are breeders that breed for excessive size whether that is small or large. This things can and do negatively affect the breeds. The breeds are no longer functional for the work in which they were created. They are either too small or too large to do the work effectively. Due to the lack of selective breeding dogs are being bred with health and genetic issues. This is being passed along to future generations of litters. These are my thoughts.

2.  Are there any good reasons to take a rare breed (in the USA a rare breed is anyone that is not recognized with the AKC) and seek AKC recognition?  If so, please explain. You may also apply this question to your own country and breeds and discuss that.

ANS -  I don't know if there are good reasons to do this. But there are reasons why I would. I show my dogs. I want them evaluated by non biased qualified persons to see if the meet breed standards before I use them in my breeding program. There are no FCI shows near me. The closest one that I had been invited to go to was in Puerto Rico. Sure I would love to go there one day. But it is not cost effective for me to do so and show my dogs. I can and do attend UKC events. But near me there is only one a years. The next closest ones are 5 plus more hours away. There are AKC show often near me. This would be to my advantage.

Another reason would be for pride. I'd like to see my breed on Westminster even if it is not my dog.

Another reason many might have is for profit. Everyone knows AKC. One of the first things perspective owners or shoppers ask is are they registered with AKC. Also, I like to won things that have my specific breed. I can buy customized thing with a GSD, Rottie, Dobe, etc. But it is rare to find anything with my breed. Even my vet when I get a health certificate do not put my breeds name on the certificate because it is not in their computer. Allegedly there is supposed to be a way to select other and type in my breed, but no one there knew how to do it when I've gone. This has given me problems when shipping a dog. The vet used a different breed that had more restrictions for flying than my breed should have. Even though I can explain it to the airport personnel. They can look and see that our dogs do not have the snub nose. But they have to follow their guidelines and use what is on the paperwork.

3.  Will you buy a puppy without a contract? For the record I have never bought a puppy with a contract nor have I sold any with a contract.  Good or bad - go for it.

ANS - I have purchased dogs without a contract. I don't think this is a good idea. I've been fortunate not to have any problems. But I prefer a contract. I have run into a number of people that don't want a contract. Some but not all of them were trying to buy a dog at pet quality prices and want a breed quality dog. A few know they are getting pet quality but do not want to get the pet fixed. They claim they have no interest in breeding. But i don;t know and send them away without a dog.

4.  Should guardian breeds (specifically Livestock Guardian Breeds) only be owned and kept by those who has a job for them to do, preferably guarding property and livestock.

ANS - In my opinion no. There are fewer opportunities to find owners that are in need of livestock guardians. water rescue or mountain rescue dogs. However these dogs are working dogs. They can still perform a variety do duties. They can still make great companions for pet owners. They can compete and excel in a variety of canine events.

5.  This one is very very easy.  Should the American Pit Bull Terrier be banned or should stupid owners be banned.

ANS - You might be able to figure out my response to this by my previous comment. The answer is no the American Pit Bull should not be banned. There should be no BSL either. There are people that should not own a dog. There are people that should not own dogs of a certain temperament. Breeders should do their best to screen them out. But even if they do of course some will still slip through the cracks.

 

 

I have often heard people blaming AKC or other registries for ruining a breed. I disagree. If a breed is ruing or harmed in anyway the fault in my opinion lies within the breeders. Breeding and showing a dog does not change its temperament or working abilities. It does not cause health issues. AKC, UKC, FCI do not create the standards for the breeds. These standards are created by the parent registries that submits their breeds for registry.

 Ok - I will do this one at a time. I agree with some of your statement but disagree with most.  I agree that Breed clubs are responsible for their breed's form, function and looks.  Your statement that breeding and showing do not change temperament or working abilities is subject to much more debate but I disagree. What I do know from experience and have seen and read and discussed with other dog fanciers is this - When a breed enters the major registries like the AKC and CKC they will be changed forever.  There are several breeds - lets stick with guardians - the if they are worth anything will never let a stranger put a hand on them let alone open their mouths and feel around at the genitals. You can see it happening with most of the rustic breeds today.  CO, CAO, Kangal, Anatolian, Neapolitan, Cane Corso, Presa Canario, Black Russian Terrier, German Shepherd - to name a few.  These breeds are no longer the breeds they were when they were "recognized" by a breed club.  Pick any breed you like and go back 50 years and observe the difference. 

Take the Neapolitan Mastiff for instance. The once venerable guardian dogs of the Italian country side the would scare the heck out of an intruder and provide an unstoppable frontal attack if needed. They were athletic and catlike, fearless, healthy, indomitable, fierce when guarding and loyal to their family - now they are only loyal to their family for the most part.  There are a handful of breeders who are actually trying to maintain the rusticity and athleticism of the breed - but for the most part the harsh temperament which enabled them to properly do their job and remain relevant is gone.

What took decades of centuries to develop into a breed can be ruined in a couple generations of show dogs. Yes, I have heard of people saying they take their dogs from the field and wash them and off to the show they go.  Ok, some people probably do that but not most.

About health issues - I remember when the Neo was accepted in the AKC and shortly there after the standard was changed to accentuate the breeds, big head, wrinkles, "massive" bone .. and a term called WHAM was coined by judges or others.. Wrinkles, Head, And Mass.. Lots of wrinkles, huge head and Much Mass.. 10 years later the dogs could barely walk around the ring let alone do their job and most of them could not see because of the wrinkles.. they also could not breed properly because their equipment was so far away from where it was supposed to be that the male could not find it.. if the male was healthy enough to mount her. Most Neos are bred today by artificial insemination. 

Ok, I fully agree that it is the parent breed club's responsibility to police their breed and protect its health and longevity.. they for, the most part, fail miserably.

 

Gary

I understand what you are saying. I would have said the same thing too in the past. However there is no proof that we can link that here has been a change in temperament. There are changes. But the changes lies in how the dogs are raised. conditioned, etc. The argument I hear all of the time from those that are anti show is that a show dog won't bite or can't do the work. These people do not breed to the standard. They breed "working" dogs.Often they know the dogs they are breed do not meet the standards set by the parent organization. If temperament was genetic link every dog from the working line should make great working dogs. They should all be able to earn a schutzhund title coming from strong schutzhund lines. The fact are that every dog is not going to be a great schutzhund dog just like every dog from a "show" line will be champion of record. The true difference is how the dogs are being raised. Today dogs are being raised to be more socially acceptable. They do more early socialization to allow the dogs to be touch and handled by people other than the owners. I recall when we were taught not to let anyone touch your dogs. In fact they taught you to raise the dog in a crate and to not let in see any strangers or have any contact with humans outside of the family. The bite development started at 8 month. All of the puppy imprinting was geared towards developing the dog's drive. Some still hold fast to this type of methodology. However, today we are taught the dog should see over 1000 people before it is 8 weeks of age. Many look down on those of us that use forced correction. They don't even believe dogs are pack animal. There is no alpha(mentality) type dog. Some say there is no different drives like prey drive, etc. This they back up with scientific data. Many believe if we use a slip collar or prong collar that is abuse. They try to solve everything with cookies and hot dogs. I know a ball can be used instead of food for some dogs. However edible are the most common way to reward the dog positively. Of course a dog that has been trained from the time it has been weaned to to guardian type work are going to be better at that work than a dog that has been taught to be socially acceptable. But this does not change the instinct that the dog has to to guardian work. The instinct is there. But it has been taught what its job is. It can be taught through training. It can also be taught by seeing other dogs. Often my dogs learned what to do by seeing my other dogs do it.

 

Science has concluded that temperament has a genetic component. But it is greatly influenced by environmental conditions. It is developed by experiences. It is polygenic. There are multiple or many things that influence temperament. Scientist have been studying dogs behavior or phenotype. But it is difficult to defining behavioral metrics. It s extremely complex. They can draw conclusion, but there are also many independents variable that they can't explain.  If it were all genetic every dog in a littler would be champion of record. Every dog in a schutzhund line would earn a schutzhund III title. We know this does happen. There are still going to be some pet quality dogs in a litter. You are lucky if you get 2 or 3 goo show quality dogs. A schutzhund line might produce some good personal protection dogs, but in that same litter not every dog will be able to handle being a good schutzhund dog.

 

I agree that there has been changes in the dogs. It is related to AKC and other breed registries. I do not fault the registries, but IMO it is directly related to them. Since the registries accepts breeding dogs from anyone with a dog we have dogs that are not breeding quality being bred. People say they want to improve the breed. But they only want to create their ideal dog not the ideal dog for that breed. They want a bigger head, a larger dog. We can look at the Huge dog that is being talked about all over the internet right now in one other than Hulk the "biggest pit bull" in the world. It is a beautiful dog. It is impressive looking. However a pit bull is not a 175 lb dog. Of course I wasn't there when the dog was bred or the dogs that produce this dog was bred. But somewhere along the line it would surprise me if something else was bred into it to get the size other than pit bulls. I wouldn't be surprised if someone hung some papers saying this was a purebred. Since there is no score that a dog has to reach before it can be bred and its puppies get registered anyone with a dog in their yard can breed. The lack of selective breeding practices have produce the changes and health problems in dog breeds.

 

If we go back to selective breeding the ideal working dog or dog in the Guardian group should have the correct conformation to do the work as well as the correct temperament to carry out the work. If the dogs do not have both they should not be bred IMO. That leads me to the policing of the breeds. This says to me that this is up to the individual breeders since no registry make this a requirement.

There is this "breeder" in Canada. He has presa canarios. His thing is size. He want all of his dogs to be huge. In the process of doing this his dog lose agility. Allegedly his top stud is huge and can't jump into the back of a truck. It has to be picked up. Sure it's huge and looks nice. Some would say impressive. But it is no functional. I was at a big presa event. There was a dog that wasn't fully matured yet. It was 148 lbs and still growing. He can still move gratefully. it was doing a temperament test (in defense of handler). It performed well. It hit the sleeve hard. Might have been the hardest hit if the day that I witnessed. I didn't see them all. But the problem I had was it took a long time for the dog to get to the decoy. I could have taken a nap before it got there. It was too big. Again it is not functional. Hopefully my dog will never have to protect me. But if it does I need to know it will get there fast. I need to know it can go over the fence and stop and attack if needed. Time can be the difference in me surviving or not.

Thank you for a very nice and informative, thoughtful post. I agree with your premise.

We have often discussed on this site that form follows function.  So the morphology of any breed will be determined by genetics and what they do for a living. So a coursing dog such as a greyhound, saluki, etc.. looks like they are built to run... because they are.  A mastiff type looks like they are built to fight and do battle because they are... so if the presa canario is supposed to be the gripping dog of the canary islands.. it must be able to jump up, grab and subdue a bull. 

By the way - I am not anti show - I had a wonderful show dog named Julius - he was great at the ring and was a multi national champion.  When people came to the house and wanted to meet the dogs - they met Julius.  You can guess why?

So anyway, the real guarding and protecting was left to the other 3 dogs.  Shows do change the way a dog behaves toward strangers and anyone who says it does not is mistaken. 

Thanks again for a great post.

Gary

I used to be anti show. I don't know if I want to say anti but I had absolutely no interest in it. I AKC was the devil so to speak. I blamed them for messing up breeds. This is what I had been taught. I didn't understand the importance of having some unbiased people rate the dogs. I only wanted my dogs to do protection work. because I've been there I'm empathetic towards them. I can't talk about them without talking about myself. But today i see the value on both. I have judges evaluate the dogs to affirm that they meet the standards to be bred. I also test their temperament to see if they have the correct temperament for the breed. I don;t do schutzhund. I like to watch it, but I prefer personal protection for my dogs. When schutzhund trial were created it was a temperament test to see if the dogs had the correct temperament before the dogs could be bred. Today in is a sport. Many dogs that compete in that sport will not make a good family protector. they can put on a show and do well biting a sleeve, but many will not bite an intruder or aggressive person or anything that doesn't have a sleeve. Sure there are some exception. There are certain breed that usually does better at crossing over and doing the sport and doing the real work.

 

Personally I would not call my dogs show dogs. Other will refer to them as that. My dogs have been shown and have done well. But they do not have a show career. Once the title was earned there was no need to show them again. Some breeders show the same dogs over and over. Some have asked me why didn't bring the dog that won it all last time? The reason why I don't is that I use the sow for its original purpose which is to evaluate your breeding stock.

Can anyone denie that a 5th , 8th or 13th generation show dog has way more health problems and way less temperament?? Look at ANY breed of dog that became mainstream and popular. They all got ruined. Be it a retreiver or a guard dog . In general i think dog shows do ruin breeds. And then we are not even talking about the crazy extremes that are just plain dog abuse. Dogs with to small skull for their brain. Hips in german sheperd so low they look like they are sick. The extreme wrinkels and skin in Napoletano . The list goes on. 

The health problem has little or nothing to do with the show. It is the breeders or the ones that call themselves breeders. The pedigree on my dogs has a long pedigree that goes back many generations. Also, many of those dogs have been health checked for genetic defects. So yes you can have 13th and more generations of dogs that are not unhealthy and still maintain the function. health problem are due to a lack of selective breeding and too much inbreeding. There is no perfect dog. All dogs have some type of fault. The closer the inbreeding the more you double up on those faults. It has been mentioned that of a dog didn't work or of a dog wasn't of standard those dogs were eliminated from the gen pool. A responsible breeder should do the same. But the puppy peddlers and backyard breeders will put any 2 dogs together. Many do not even know or care what the standards are. They don't know anything about health issues. They will breed a blind dog, cow hocked dog, etc. They breed dogs with rare or exotic colors. They will breed dogs of different breed and claim that they are the same breed. I recently saw on world pedigree dog canario site a dog and some of its offspring since they put picture of the dogs if you have them with the pedigree. This one dog was almost all white. That is a disqualifying fault for a presa. That is an indication that that dog was not a presa. It has been mixed with something. Then in the offspring that were pictured they all have too much white in them. The pedigree on the first dog is not even a 3 generation pedigree. Unfortunately the many people that will purchase one of these dogs will not know that these dogs are not of standard. They will think they have something rare or more special. These dogs might in themselves be great dogs. But they should not be registered to breed as a pedigree dog. It is doubtful that anyone will know what health issues might be passed through the line that are in other dogs in their pedigree. If the breed registry would have required a picture to be registered or DNA testing those dogs would not have been able to be registered. The only time that I have had to submit a picture of my dogs to register them was when I took an FCI dog or other registry dog and registered the with a different registry. I have not registered my current dogs with AKC. But I have considered doing it even though they can only be registered AKC FSS. 

 

In regard to the "Show" changing a dog. I understand what is being said. I agree and I disagree. Yes it changes the dog. But it is not the show so to speak. Any training changes the dog. This is true no matter what type of training is done with the dogs. That can be basic obedience, Conformation, Rally, herding, Boar Catching, Protection, Weight Pulling, Agility, Fly Ball, etc. That is the environmental stimuli.  Dogs know how to sit, down and walk without human interaction. We teach them to perform those task at our discretion. Without this they would be wild and do whatever it wants. We teach them to live under our rule set. We teach them to allow stranger to examine them (touch their bodies, testicles and look at their teeth). This is just like the elephant that when it was a calf it is tied to a stake with a huge chain to prevent it from going any further than the chain. Then when it becomes an adult is tied to a pole with a rope. The elephant is still powerful enough to walk away regardless of the rope. But it has been trained or conditioned to stop at the end of the rope. The training does not change its genetic make up. It has been taught to follow human rules. My dogs would pull me all over the place if I didn't teach them to walk at my side when I want them too. In fact most would reject the leash and or collar. They had to be conditioned to accept them and to comply with my rules. So yes the "Show"changes them. They must be conditioned for it. I do notice a difference in the "Show" in the USA than in the "Show" in Europe. A dog can still be a dog in Europe. If a dog or a person gets too close in Europe they will bark and growl. Basically the dogs is being protective. The dog will not be disqualified. In fact the judges appear to like this as they know the dog is a guardian. In the USA in AKC or UKC they can and some judges will disqualify the dog for doing this. The dog can even be banned and you can't register any of your litters from that dog. I read that they can send a notice to those that have a pup from that dog that those dogs are no longer registered dogs. It is at the judges discretion. Some judges don't like to do it. I was told it is a lot of paperwork when they do that. Some judge are quick to do it. But when we have the FCI judges it is much different. I saw several dogs that attempted to bite the judge. Some were out of control. One that tried to bite the judge then refused to walk around the ring to show its gait. The judge award that dog 1st place and the out of control dogs got first place. In the written critique it mentions the dogs drive. On dogs that have been trained to walk at heel the judge comment was a lack of drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yku1MSa5vRY 

 

Breeding show dogs for show. Breeding for looks. Is in many cases , torture. 

I didn't view the video. I have seen some horrible videos. I will look at the video later when I get some more time if the video is not too long. Even if it is long I will at least look at some of it. I do agree that there are some bad breeding. But this is true whether if it is for show or otherwise. I just added a couple of images. These dogs are examples of horrible breeding IMO. However, on one of those dogs I've seen posts where people are wanting to breed to them. They are popular and the new puppy owners don't know why there are having a lot of health bills with the offspring. I wanted to upload the images from my computer. But I didn't see the option on this image up-loader.

2dog.png47.9K1 views

I haven't read anyone else's responses before posting this so as not to color my answers.

 

1.  Do the National Dog Registries (AKC, CKC, UKC, FCI, etc,) and their supporting national breed clubs contribute to the demise, health issues, lack of working abilities and the destruction of their true temperament?  A few examples would be nice.

*** Once upon a time I would have argued differently but I've begun to see AKC registration to be the beginning of the end for a good line of working dogs. I don't find UKC to be as bad because they seem to have a stronger focus on working ability. I once saw purpose in conformation shows until I realized that form stopped following function. Form was focused on trends & what looked neat. Looking neat does not get the job done. If you don't believe me ask a bulldog or a bull terrier with their head so domed they look like a banana head.  As the Collie whose head got so narrow I question where the poor dogs put their brains!  Colors being bred for without regard for the simple question: can the dog still preform it's original duties?  No, I do not believe in pit fighting dogs however what makes the bulldog a bulldog was his ability to handle a bull. My Gram had a Pit Bull or a Pit Bull mixed with Bulldog. His name was Bullger. On the day they went to gather milk cows & were attacked by a range bull, Bullger did what bull breeds do. He took care of business. Tore the ring out of the bull's nose & brought him to his knees so the children could run for cover then he followed his children making certain the bull didn't follow. THAT is a skill set. There are essential ingredients within each breed of dog that makes them a member of that breed. When those ingredients are bred out & destroyed the breed. A Doberman who will not defend his master is something else but NOT a Doberman. To me this is what I see from the likes of AKC. Politically correct for the humans, destruction for the breeds.

On the other hand I bought a puppy from a breeder I both know & respect. I've trained on his field. He refuses to allow his work to fall into the hands of the likes of the AKC. I once thought he was eccentric. Now I understand. The pup I had from him was the best dog I've probably ever owned. Beautiful dog but she was all work, all serious, all the real deal.  Now the pitfall of dealing with dogs with no paper/pedigree is being able to trust the breeder you buy from. I knew the man I bought my dog from. Had she had a genetic problem, a phone call is what it would take & he would make it right. He does not sell puppies he considers inferior. Parents, grandparents, great grands are all his dogs & they've all been worked extensively. I'd take a pup from a breeder like this over an AKC pup any day. Again the catch is finding one you can trust.

 

2.  Are there any good reasons to take a rare breed (in the USA a rare breed is anyone that is not recognized with the AKC) and seek AKC recognition?  If so, please explain. You may also apply this question to your own country and breeds and discuss that.

******* Not in my opinion.  See #1  :)  I think it's the fastest way to the destruction of the breed.  I fear the Dutch Shepherd will go that way now

 

3.  Will you buy a puppy without a contract? For the record I have never bought a puppy with a contract nor have I sold any with a contract.  Good or bad - go for it.

******** Here's a little known fact that many don't understand. If you buy a puppy from a breeder in your own state, the contract has some teeth. If you buy a puppy from out of state, the contract is pretty much like child's toy shield. Meaning it may make all parties feel better however enforcing it is pretty hard to do.  I've been on both ends of the stick. I've bought from a very bad man who basically said, "I've got your money & the dog's your problem". I've also bought from a breeder who did not know his dogs had an underlying genetic problem. He was actually a very honest man who did not know he had a problem until it became painfully obvious through pups he'd sold me. It did not end well however he did everything humanly possible to make it right. I had a contract on the first pup, no contract on the rest... never needed one. He did the right thing. I've got a file drawer full of contracts on pups but in the end they don't mean much. It's false security in most cases.  And I will not buy a dog under any circumstances that dictates spay/neuter. That's a whole other hot button for me.  Thanks but no.

 

4.  Should guardian breeds (specifically Livestock Guardian Breeds) only be owned and kept by those who has a job for them to do, preferably guarding property and livestock.

************ I think the guardian breeds can do more than one type of job. I know a Great Pyranees who is taking care of a Daycare full of kids. Nanna doesn't allow the children to fight, sounds the alarm if someone tries to breach the fence & is an excellent scraped knee fixer. But I think you can't fit a square peg in a round hole. So I wouldn't buy a certain breed of dog knowing I was going to live in an apartment where the dog might not understand the small boundaries of his job.

 

5.  This one is very very easy.  Should the American Pit Bull Terrier be banned or should stupid owners be banned.

*************ban the idiots... keep the pits

 

 

 

Here's an article that can be quickly glanced through. Pretty dogs on the right. Dogs retaining working ability of old on the left. I'm not certain how anyone could look at dogs

https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/100-years-of-breed-improvement/

 

Granted the largest part of the problem is breeders putting up with folks dictating what these dogs should look like when the very people making these rules don't work the dogs. I had a bulldog out of all Champion lines. She was kept lean to prevent health problems & she did stand her ground against a herd of cattle but if she hadn't bluffed them, she'd have been killed. If you look at the photographs of then vs. now it's undeniable the breeds have been changed & most often is done with little regard as to what those changes mean when the dogs are working. Exaggerated wrinkles, massive heads, dumbing down the working temperament to suit the folks who don't wish to work the dogs but insist they are champion breeders.  No, it doesn't work that way.  I have a dog right now out of a multitude of champions. Everyone thought I was crazy but the reason I bought her is I knew the breeder. I've watched her & her dogs for over 20 years. She's tough as nails & breeds dogs who aren't politically correct. Through training you can curb those instincts to accept what they must to survive in modern day life but the instincts were there FIRST. Therefore this dog works. The genetics must carry the right ingredients or the dog is not what it appears to be. Unfortunately there is too much of that these days

Peeper in my opinion is correct. I haven't followed the Dutch Shepherd. So I can't speak much on them specifically. I have a friend that has one that is an import. I'm aware it is believed to be better dogs cor specifically a better Dutch Shepherd because of where he got him as they tend to do or require more selective breeding practices. This is the same reason why police department allegedly only get their dogs dogs from overseas instead of finding good one in their own country. I cant verify that information. instead of speaking on the Dutch Shepherd I believe that the South African Boerboel will have a downfall now that it is accepted by the AKC. They will be over-bred because they are popular. People that should not be breeding dogs will breed them and breed dogs that should only be pets. These dogs will not meet the criteria of a breeding dog. Again this is my opinion. I know right now there are no known health issues with the breed. I fear this will change. I fear that people will mix other breeds into it trying to create their idea of a dog that is not what the image of what a Boerboel is supposed to be and then pass it off as a pedigree dog. The future will tell if I'm correct. I don't blame AKC as it is simply a registry. It is the largest registry as far as I know. They do what they do best and that is take our money and keep a record of pedigrees a given to them by the so-called breeder.

 

All roads or problems lead back to the people that are breeding dogs. If they breed dogs that are not functional and continue this practice that leads to generations of dog that can't perform the work that the breed was created to do. There are puppy mills that are notorious for breeding sick dogs, dogs afraid of their own shadows and selling the dogs saying they are from champion bloodlines. There might be one or 2 champions on the pedigree. Those dogs are so far back on the pedigree that they won't have much influence in the current breeding. The lack of knowledge of the consumer allows this the grow. Later the health issue shows up in these dogs. The owner might have bred it too thinking they can make some money because they paid a lot from the pet store or puppy mill. When the health issue show up they don;t want to put the dog to sleep because it is now a member of the family. I remember walking into a home many years ago. The people had a cocker spaniel. I saw this huge ball in it neck about the size of a soccer ball. The dog was struggling to hold its head up and could barely walk. I felt sorry for this dog. I was upset with the owner. I know it wasn't my dog. I asked about its neck. The dog had a tumor. They didn't want to put it to sleep because they had it so long. It was family. The only thing I could think of was that dog could be in a lot of pain and can't tell us. I'd rather put it to sleep than to see it suffer.

 

More on the Boerboel. There is a well known breeder of them in my state. On his website he talks about them being guardian. He states on there he will not sell a pup to anyone that want to do any type of protection training with a dog. That says to me that the prospective owner will not make it known that they plan to do this. it also says to me that I will not buy a dog from him if I decide to get this breed later. Just like I research a breed before buying I also research the breeders. I have seen recently online how at least two of his adult dogs were stolen from his home. I don't know how old the article was. But this goes back to environment having an affect on the dogs. The instinct to protect is there. But his dogs have been taught to accept stranger and the humans are not a threat. He may have not done this on purpose, but that is the result. I remember when I had American Bulldogs. I initially got interested in them because I saw video of them hog catching. They were fearless. I saw them doing some protection work. They were great manstoppers. There was a place (MMM Kennel) in Mississippi where this one breeder had it that you could send your pup or dog there to be trained in hog catching. I considered doing it even though I had no plans on ever going hog catching. I don't think that that kennel is around anymore. I have tried to find it online. If it is around maybe they don't advertise online. I got my AB from a line that was hog catching. I saw video of the mother, father, and other dogs in the line on some hogs. I was invited to come down to Texas and go hunting with them. Bill Hines has since passed away. His dogs were great working dogs. At least the ones that I got were. I never heard of any that weren't. Others might have a different story. That was a long time ago. That was before I knew enough to know that I should find out if any health testing was done on the parents. There are only a select few breeders that I know that have their dogs tested for health or temperament. This is why many dogs are being produced that are unhealthy and have unstable temperaments. I preferred the Hines Line to Johnson lines. The Johnson line was popular for the look and excessive size. But I preferred a more athletic dog that could breathe. I want my dog to be able to go over a fence to protect me if needed.

I have now watch the video in its entirety. This is not new information. This is show a problem with breeding practices from the breeders. This is done in so-called working lines. Ive seen breeders hat claim how their dogs are working dogs. They put down the Shows. Then they boast how on a particular breeding that this is a double bred or triple bred dog. In other words they are heavily into inbreeding the father back to the daughter back to the new daughter. Personally I wouldn't bu a dog like that from a "show" line or "working" line. We also have those that breed ban dogs. That no nothing of the history or the health history of the dogs that they are breeding. Just because the dog has been crossed with a different breed doesn't mean it will not produce unhealthy dogs. If the dog has genetic health problem it can sow up in future litters of its offspring. offspring.

These are mixed breed dogs that some registry has created a name for them. Some are being passed off as pedigree with some small registry and now with the UKC. The dogs have to be carried. They are so low to the ground. Legs go east and west instead of straight fronts. They can't breathe and will easily overheat. There are many other health problems with them and they have a short lifespan. they can't have a natural tie nor a natural birth.

 

Those pictures in the last photo are pure & simple dog abuse. Creating animals that must be carried rather than walking. Despicable. What a sad life those dogs lead :(

 

The Boerboel is one of the breeds I came very close to going with. I like the look & what I learned about the working ability of the breed. The dogs I met, however were very disappointing. I met breeders who bragged about their dogs' protective instincts yet if you even hinted at getting a puppy for guardian work, you were labeled 'one of those' & put in the discard pile. My question is simple: are the dogs so truly poor the breeder fears people will discover the truth?  My parents bred working Dobermans. I raised working Dobermans. I have handled, worked & trained more guardians than I can count. In my experience breeders who behave like that have something to hide... generally it is the truth. One only has to listen to what the potential puppy buyer says to tell if this person is a nut job wanting a tough dog to bite & intimidate vs. someone who is responsible, who does their homework, employs a trainer, does the time & work with the dog. Either the breeder is lazy or incompetent (in which case I would never want a puppy from such a person) or they have fear/concern that they haven't reconciled with or they have something in their dogs they don't want exposed so you sell to the people who won't reveal it.  The Boerboel is a dog who was born to work, to do a job & part of that job is guardian work. There is a difference between vicious/dangerous vs. trained/competent.


Of course, at the moment I am helping a good friend locate a dog plus I'm trying to decide what to get for myself. The more I look the madder I become at what has happened to a noble creature who did not deserve to be destroyed at the hands of silly people more concerned with more wrinkles, bigger head, bigger chest. I have only to look at the photos of those poor dogs who must be carried to experience fury on their behalf. Being made & born to be crippled. If that's not cruel, I don't know what is. For the breeders who hold their ground & stubbornly refuse to bow to the masses, you are held in the highest regard by me. At the base of it, humans seeking trophies & assurance that they have the best is the root of the problem. The win became more important than preserving the purpose & abilities. Grrrr...

As far as the picture of the dogs those dogs should be put to seep. But some of them are breeding. They say they are getting $5000 to 20000 a pup on dogs like these. I've seen the post that people say they can't wait to breed to one of these deformed dogs. Other say they want one. The sad thing is they are not being sarcastic. Those dogs should not reproduce. They should be put to sleep. The often mix french bulldogs or English bulldogs into these dogs to get this look.

 

I like the boerboel. It is a breed that I have thought about owning. I agree they are bred to work. IMO it is sort of abusive not to have a working dog work. It should do some type of work. It ca be competing is some dog sport if not the the original work that they were bred to do. I don't think the breeders that don't want you to train the dog to do protection work are afraid that their dogs are not good for this. It is how our society views things today. Many do not understand what it takes to have a guardian. They believe that the dog will automatically do this without training. Sure there are some dogs that will. But this is not true for the majority. I have heard too many people say that my dog will give their life for me. They really believe this. Then I test the dog to show them that do will be behind them all of the way. The dog will outrun them to get away or just hide behind the owner looking for the owner to protect them. Some dogs will bluff but the bark is worst than the bite or lack of a bite. Those breeders tell the consumer this breed in naturally protective. They do need to be protection trained. They know when and how to do it. That is the ignorance of those breeders. How will a dog know who to bite and not to bite unless it has been taught. The dog does not know that the lady pushing her baby in a stroller is not a threat and the guy that is peering through the window is a threat. The dog can read body language if it is taught what that language means. It can learn that the guy shaking my hands is not being threatening and the guy that is agitated is. I read a post online where this woman said teaching a dog to do this was abusive. Then there were others that agreed with her. They called the owners idiots and other vile names for doing this to a dog. The owner attempted to teach them that the dog was bred to do this type of work. My thought were I guess they have problems with what the military and police teach dogs too. They don't know the difference in teaching a dog to be aggressive and teaching a dog to be protective.

 

The dog can read body language if it is taught what that language means. It can learn that the guy shaking my hands is not being threatening and the guy that is agitated is. I read a post online where this woman said teaching a dog to do this was abusive.

 Well there you have it.  If some find it offensive that we teach our dogs to recognize threatening situations and behave differently from friendly non-threatening situations they we have to consider where we are as the dog owning public. The lady who wrote that in the post that you read is not fit to own any type of molosser breed.  

Please post some of those links where you read this kind of nonsense so I check it out.

Gary
  • As far as that lady that is her ignorance.  She lacks the  knowledge.  I don't know if she owns any dog are not. I don't know where that post is. I do know it was on YouTube. She had attacked me before. But  that time she commented and attacked the person who posted a video I had committed on the  video or liked it prior to her post. Makes me think she is following what I do in order to be an antagonist. 

Gary,

I don't have a link to this as it happened on my street. I was out walking my dogs one morning & a ding bat in a truck came speeding by. I saw her looking at the dogs but didn't think much of it. People usually look at my dogs. But this lady whips the truck over & jumps out. She had a night stick in her hand & she was yelling at me at a volume & speed that I couldn't  understand what she was angry about or why she was coming at us. The dogs moved into position, one on either side of me. To be honest my first thought was this is a mentally ill person. Who does this sort of thing? I live in an open carry state plus there are concealed carry permits. I was carrying my pistol in open carry fashion in hopes that if some moron decided to come after me he'd see the dogs & the gun & his brain might engage, maybe thing about going to McDonalds & leaving me alone. But not this lady. She was just railing at me. At one point she kept advancing & as she was threatening me with the nightstick, I very nearly drew on her. One of the neighbors was on the porch & his wife brought him the rifle while she was calling 911. It was quite a show to happen before the sun has risen. I pointed out that my dog could make it to her before she could make it to her truck so she needed to back off. Police arrived. I have to say, I love our police officers out here. So far (knock on wood) I haven't met one who was a jerk, they've all been very nice & kind to me & my dogs. We were surrounded & the police took over & I have never been so glad to see those cars & uniforms in my life! The dogs lay down at my feet & we had to tell our perspective of what happened.

The thing the woman went batty over was the fact that my youngest, a large powerful Giant Schnauzer, was wearing a prong collar. I would have laughed except I wanted to kick this woman in the butt so very badly. I was accused of abusing my dogs, accused of being a dog fighter, she swore she saw me jerk my dogs around & kept telling the officers they needed to check my dogs for signs of such brutality. I invited the officers to please bring a flashlight & let's look at my 'abused' dogs. They did. My Giant Schnauzer is coal black & if she had a scar on her it would stand out like a flashing neon sign. I showed the officers how to test the flesh on a dog's neck for abusive type corrections, to feel for the heat in the tissue & explained what they would see if this was an abuse case. My Collie was a brassy sable & white (lots of white) if you abused her or made her bleed it would stand out red/pink on that big white collar & white legs. The officers asked me enough questions that they even joked later they should be paying for the information. So the officers deferred back to the ding-bat inquiring what exactly did she find abusive.

Again she referred to the collars. I explained to the officers that my young Giant, despite her size, was still quite mentally a puppy. She makes mistakes, gets over zealous & can be a bit much. All my working dogs wear a wide leather collar then they wear their training collar, which is usually a prong. The different with the Giant is she also had a 3rd collar, her choker chain. For the majority of her life, the chain collar is all that's needed as far as a 'correction' collar but the prong was there as a safety precaution in the event she were to elevate beyond acceptable levels of goofiness. A couple of the officers took me aside & asked if I had changed the leash around that morning. I said that I hadn't, it's what made this whole thing really stupid & yet... really funny. You see, the prong collar was on the dog but the leash was never attached to it... it wasn't needed. She was behaving very well & there was no need for anything more than her chain. The big leather collar was to give me a hand-hold in the event that some maniac attacked us so that it didn't hurt her throat or correct her as she worked. It was at this point that the nasty woman started cussing at me & even spit at me.

The sad thing is, Gary, this has happened to me multiple times since living out west. I know the prong collar looks horrible but the truth is it can be much kinder than a choker.

just this past weekend I spoke with a woman whose dogs are a mess. I mean a MESS. No training at all, they don't know their name or come when called. When I offered to help the woman if nothing else just while we got through the vaccination clinic, the woman told me, "Oh no. They were shelter dogs. They've been through enough. I wouldn't dream of training them." As if the life they have no as out of control beasties is somehow kinder?

I don't understand some people.  

I'm glad everything worked out with you and the police.  It was uncalled for but at least they were understanding.  

 

I use prong collars. There are no laws against them here. The only time I can't have one on a dog is at the dog show or trial. I know some people think that they are the worst.  They have an opinion.  I just continue to train my dogs. 

 

I also  have a shelter dog. I wouldn't think of not having it trained. The dog gets excited every time we go out to train. 

 

Thank you for sharing that story! It is very telling about the level of stupidity of some members of our society. That lady probably is a card carrying member of PETA and if she happens to own any animals I will bet that they are basket cases when it comes to behavior. I too use a prong collar for training and correction of large strong dogs. It works.  

Good news is that the Golden Valley Sheriff seemed to be quite reasonable.  Living out west but not too far west (Cali) you should enjoy many more individual freedoms and not have to put up with crap like that.  It may be time to move to Texas.  :) You just gave me an idea for a photo contest!  :)

Gary

LOL, the police out here are very different than what I'm used to in the Midwest. Back home far too many officers have forgotten that they are not judge & jury with the trial being held on the spot. You're guilty until proven innocent. Out here in the west someone has done a very good job of not putting up with that attitude from police officers. I've been told this area used to really have a problem with nasty officers. In my opinion, someone cleaned house in a positive way. It's hard to believe the officers are so nice when people have such ugly opinions, then again, I'm not doing drugs & mad at them for finding my 'stash' or whatever it's called so that could account for a lot (tons of drugs out here). Any time you have that kind of incident, I consider myself fortunate to get luck of the draw with officers who were not only willing to listen but reasonable. Back home that same situation would have been a nightmare.

 

 

The west and Texas!  Yeahhh for some individual freedom. :)

So when we first moved here to South Texas the property was not completely fenced to my liking so I fended in about 3 acres for the goats and sheep and about 4 acres around the house.  The dogs stayed by the house because i had field and barbed wire fencing in the goat and sheep pasture.  So one night some wild dogs (wolf-dog and some mutts) came by and killed some sheep while we were away. When we got back and found the dogs still here I went inside to arm up.. Nicol chased the dogs with a big mag-lite and they went through the fence and took off.

I called the sheriff to report the incident and he was very nice on the phone .. he asked me three questions.  1. Why call me? 2. Do you have a firearm? 3. Kill them if they come back to eat their kills.   

They did and they died.  End of story.  Was a sad situation.  Since then I have the 10 acres completely fenced - I did not like to put those dogs down but I found out that they had killed many domestic animals in the area. Some locality and state governments get the idea of individual freedom and liberty.

No the dogs can be in the pasture with the goats and if a predator comes they are fair game.  We hear coyotes howling many times during the night but they tend to stay away from our place.

Gary

im glad i was around when the forums were really active. i learned alot here

Gary I hear ya. Several years ago I had to come home from work, do my chores, take a nap. Then I'd take a dog or two & a rifle & go sit in the woods near our herd of cattle. It was calving season & I had to pick 'em off as they came in to kill the new calves or down a cow while she was in labor. Strangely enough the coyotes came in to mostly pick up the afterbirth & such, they dare not get carried away with a 2000 lb bull who was a very good herd bull. Anything he couldn't handle he would come to the house to get help. But the dogs, some where dumped dogs & others were people's pets who irresponsibly just let them run. Well of course they get into mischief. Like you, I hated to do it. I don't like to kill anything I don't eat but it had to be done. Middle of the night, my dogs (one on either side of me) tensed up. I had dosed off & the bull came to check us out. He was breathing in my face. I guess I didn't look right to him. Fortunately he knew my voice & all I had to say was, "Hey Red, whatcha doin?" I talked to him for a few minutes & he backed up, snorting. Thankfully my dogs did as I told them, be still, be quiet. I'd moved to a different spot that night & when Red didn't find us, he came looking. When I didn't answer him I guess he didn't trust it was me.  My poor dogs were beside themselves but they kept it together. Broke me from falling asleep on duty too :)  By the time my military husband got home, all cows & calves were safe & I finally got some sleep. Shortly thereafter we got our Great Pyranees dogs. I always slept well with them on the loose.

 

cool story bro! tongue-out

 

im glad i was around when the forums were really active. i learned alot here

 Do you also remember all the drama we had? Wow! I did not like those at all. Some of them pitted me against friends and colleagues. All in all I think we did have great discussions and we can again.  It is the very reason I started this topic as a reminder of when we used to actually discuss things and cause learning or information sharing. Now it seems that one liners are the way to go.. not yours .. :)

From now on - when I answer a post I will try to make a substantive post to convey some information and hopefully start a trend over again.  So far we have done great on this one.  Don't you thing so?

On the topic of Food Aggression I think i will make a video tomorrow to show how they are supposed to behave.. the Caucasians I mean. Stand by for that.

Gary Sicard

I think having discussion are great. It does allow for learning and sharing different perspectives. We don't all view everything the same. We are all unique. I can present a side for or against.  :-)

 

I think having discussion are great. It does allow for learning and sharing different perspectives. We don't all view everything the same. We are all unique. I can present a side for or against.  :-)

 

To me dog shows are a bit of red herring or scapegoat if you will for the ruination of dog breeds. The real culprit, quite simply, is purebreeding. Whether it's for show or not is irrelevant, actually the dog show world probably aids in keeping things a little under control. The bullnastiff with its long show history is at least in much better shape than its close cousin- the boerboel. The latter isn't bred for shows so much as just bred pure to be a boerboel worth a lot of money and looking like some kind of cartoonishly jacked freak. I guess another good example is amstaff vs American bully. Yes the amstaff is 2nd rate compared to a proper apbt, but it's no where near as bad as an American bully.

The problem is breeding a dog because it IS something, rather than because it does something.

On a side note- count me in for missing the good old days. We need to bring back proper dog talk. This is a great site, just needs more traffic from more ppl, not sure what the solution is.

Great post Gary

Great post Gary,

Personally it is only my job load keeps me back of doing one of the things I love a lot, namely share my thoughts and opinion about dogs, especially molossers. During weekends I feel family should not been neglected and same time I try carry out various social obligations and real life's demands. I suppose most of us they operate this way. I don't know if I am the only one, but I feel like our lives have been placed into the fast forward mode ! So, I don't really think that it has to do so much with the change at the technology level (at least for the ones of us use like writing really big posts and cover everything), rather has to do with the change on our working environment due the effort to develop all the time, trying to satisfy more obligations than we actually can, sometimes yes it's even our fault by "creating" new needs to be covered at the expense of our time, and what we really enjoy to do. For sure I miss the old times, really communicating with people, even wrangle with them (if a civilized level was about to be kept), trying to make a point, trying to pass what I considered to be my knowledge, ready to enrich it and even to change it due to great arguments of the other side. For sure brief actions like posting short nonsensical sentences or just clicking like, or thumbs up/down buttons, as you mentioned above, do not fit my world. Of course I don't blame people they communicate this way and for sure I have clicked some likes, but make no mistake, this was done because of time lack. Many times when I had the time to reply by posting really big posts through the net, I been blamed and asked once (in an extremely sarcastic way) by a specific person using vulgar language in all his posts, why am I writing a f***** ESSAY and lose my f******** time through the f****** net, instead to do better f******* things. Lots other people been following the conversation they start to click one like after the other to his reply, making ironic comments against me, etc. Actually this guy gave me a great pass to specify once and for good, that time perception is completely subjective ! So what I replied to him was like, I WROTE THE ESSAY BECAUSE I HAVE NO TIME TO LOSE !!! I really have no time to lose like you replying 375 times (I actually counted his replies) within a week!!! ON THE SAME SUBJECT !!!. I have no time to lose waiting every logic or silly question to be asked and then to reply properly to every one. I have on time to lose, going back every time to find out what was the question or the point made by then, what was the argument used, when and by whom, what was that I had reply by then, and then reply now, after several weeks !!!. I have no time to lose for things like these, so I write an essay, ONCE AND FOR GOOD, most times I prevent the vast majority of the questions and I am sure I clearly made my point, leaving minimal chances to someone to get something wrong. I asked him to add the time consumed to write 375 posts and compare it with my single reply which was written within 10 minutes. The guy never replied back and most of people they been ironic toward my reply, they actually found very interesting my approach and they had the dignity to ...apologize. So yes, you right Gary, many people they just click useless likes to my opinion of course, making no point and many times this is proved to be the best case scenario, because it is not unusual when the subject is developed furthermore, FINALLY TO COMPLETELY DISAGREE AND THEN GOING BACK TO UNCLICK ALL LIKES TURNING THEM TO DISLIKES , AHA, HA, HA, HA, What you dig out now Gary, "the temperament of the Caucasian Ovcharka" I still remember the great wrangle between Yelena and Stacey, been so much sarcastic to each other, many times with an intelligent way and for sure amusing many of us this way, many times though making great points and dealing with great source of knowledge, both of them. If I remember well at some point I was all against Stacey, considering she favors the watered down edition of Caucasian Ovcharka. I think within the same discussion it was me trying to prove to Cindy, why we need nowadays, within this civilized world (Cindy used this expression to make a point favor watered down COs), with its "civilized" crime evolution,  more than ever the highest level of aggressiveness out of our COs and still would have been ...little !!!!  ha, ha. I even quote the results of an FBI report for the insane rise of hardcore crimes from 60's till 2007 !!! Yeah Gary great old times, I hope to to have more time in near future to participate actively.

Be well Gary, take care

I just went back and read this entire topic again. What a great gem it turned out to be.

I looked around the social sites for some good content regarding dogs but it is very hard to find anything of substance anymore.  Some breed specific websites do still have great content and I will feature some of them in another post.

If you find a wonderful article or discussion please share with us. Note: It probably will not be on Facebook. :)

Gary Sicard