Dear friends, My name is Onur Kanli. I am the chairman of the Turkish Shepherds' Dogs Protection Society in Turkey and Turkish Kennel Club representative of the Turkish dogs. Our club is very new and we started registering all the dog breeds living in Turkey. We are in contact with the FCI. So far we have had 2 shows under FCI judges. We don't recognize a breed called Anatolian. Such a breed never existed in our country. This is what we told FCI. Kangal and Akbash dogs are judged under different catagories during our shows. What is an Anatolian? Mixture of our dogs. Kangal, Akbash, Kars dog, Yoruk and Turkish Mastiff. Even some mongrels. First dog taken to England were Kangals but taken from Konya region. I personally met the lady who imported the first Turkish dogs to England. At that time there were no breed awearness in our country. I am talking about 40 years back. Finding a name to register them was necessary. At that time general name as Shepherd's Dog(Coban Kopegi) was told to the lady. Finding a name was very simple then. They came from Anatolia and they were shepherds' dogs. Anatolian Shepherd dog was a perfect name. In practice it is not only the name that we object. This makes the discussion very simple. Then some other people introduced tri-color, mixed dogs to England and managed to register them under the same name. In England there are two clubs now. ASDC and AKDC. AKDC has Kangals and ASDC have mixtures. But since The English K.C. registers only Anatolians as it has always been all the dogs are shown under this name. AKDC is working very hard to change the name to Kangal. We attended a meeting together with their secretary at the English Kennel Club. The meeting was very succesful for us. E.K.C. is going to attend to our next show in May. I am sure that one day Kangal will be recognized by every authority in the world. As the Turkish Kennel Club we are making our moves slowy but surely. In such a big country no one should expect to have only one breed of dog. By the help of scientific studies we hope that we will introduce all our dogs to the world. I agree that only color does not make a breed. In our standards Kangal is in the shades of fawn with black mask and ears. I have seen pictures of mixed dogs or other breed of dogs shown as Kangals here. These are just ideas without a proof and they don't help to the recognition of Kangal Dog worldwide. Best wishes. Onur Kanli, Turkey
I agree that it's important to differ between Kangal and "Anatolian Shepherd Dog". However, I have the impression that many believe Kangal to be a better LGD. Is this a myth or true?
Before saying this is true or not we have to make certain points very clear. First of all there are many Kangal dogs registered as Anatolians all over the world.By saying Anatolians do you mean mixture of Turkish dogs ?Since there is no breed of dog called Anatolian here in Turkey it is really difficult to answer your question properly. When I look at the dogs they call Anatolian I dont see one breed or a variety of a breed but dogs which resemble different aspects of Turkish Sepherds' dogs.Some of them look like nothing but simply mixture of everything including German S.D. If we look at the question from this point of view of course Kangal dog is a better then mixture of everything. Nowadays ve see a lot of Kangal effect in Anatolian lines.They think it is only the color that we care .This is a mistake .
With Anatolian Shepherd Dogs I'm talking about 1. The ones that exist in the USA, both the Karabash colored and other colored. 2. The ones that lives in Turkey simply refered to as mutts or mixed breed. When I say mixed breed that means those who are mixed with working dogs, and not western pets. I don't know whether you call them solak or coban kopegi
Some mixed bred shepherd dogs can work well but here we can not talk about breeds.Our aim is keeping the dogs pure.In Turkey there are regional breeds and they are all effective in their own or similar environments. A more general term is used here for all working dogs and it is coban kopegi.Sokak kopegi is used for the dogs which have no owners and live specially in big cities in a way they are stray dogs.Mixed bred sheperds' dogs are not sokak kopegi.
Thanks for the information. Do you have any experiences with Kangal compared with Akbash? I'm not talking about appearance, but as workers. What are the differences when it comes to aggressiveness towards strangers, dogs or predators? Does the Abkash bond stronger to the sheep/flock or is there no difference?
Thanks Onur. All the best with getting the Turkish dogs the recognition they deserve.
There is a general belief that Akbash dogs are more agressive than Kangal dogs .I observed the same thing but I believe that it is more related with the sosalization rather then the breed characteristic.Also it is the owners that make them more agressive. As far as I know both breeds bond with the flock very well.I am using both Akbash and Kangals for my own flock. I am trying to place only Akbash dogs for certain flocks and only Kangals for some other flocks.I will be able to see the difference better in the future.There aren' so many quality Akbash dogs left in Turkey because Kangals have been very populer lately.
Thanks Maximus.We are trying our best but we all have limitations.I am sure that one day we will be able to give you a better chance to be able to understand our dogs.Thanks again.
Well, this is perhaps the wrong question to ask a Kangal breeder but: What is the most significant issue/problem with Kangals as working LGDs? I mean, every breed has some "issues", or potential problems/disadvantages. I've heard that Kangals or Copan Kopegis are in general excellent working dogs, but they're more likely to injure/kill more of its own livestock than many other European LGD breeds? What is your view on this?
I already did this in Kangal gallery here but I'll say it again. I want to thank Onur Kanli for deciding to take a part and to participate here on molosserdogs.com. Finaly, after all those beautiful photos of dogs from your kennel, you have join us, and (with all respect to other participators) we now have someone here that is true authority for beautiful Kangal dogs and other breeds of Turkey. Onur, I like to wish you all the luck in international recognition of Kangal breed, and I wish you to clear all the stupidities of some foreign breeders who dont make any differences between autochton turkish breeds. Best regards! Aleksandar Tomic - Aleksa
Dear Recercare if you start a question with a comment ,I don't think that you will take my answer seriously. Every breed might have a potential problem to a certain degree under different circumstances.I have been breeding Kangals for almost 20 years now.Set aside killing its own flock member I haven't come across with a single injury with my own working Kangals. I have heard some cases like this.If there is a sheep injured by a wolf and the dogs couldn't catch the wolf when they come back and get the wolf smell on the sheep they may attack that sheep.When the dogs run after the wolf their character changes dramatically.For them it is the matter of survival. I have read the booklet published by the A.M of Agriculture(I think it was) showing the effectivenes of LGD'S being used in America.They showed similar results but with which dogs.Akbash was the best according to that article.I love Akbash dogs but I do not think they had enough material to be able to come to this conculusion. I am not breeding only Kangals ,I have got the other T.S.DOGS. I breed dogs to contribute our breeds, to have the real types as an example for ather fanciers.
Dear Aleksa ,thank you very much. We would like to cooperate with everybody but noone should try to teach us our own dogs because we are living with them.They are part of our lives.Of course we all keep learning every day but from our dogs not from the imaginary events.
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Hi Onur, I have seen many of your Kangals now and I would like to say that they are all fantastic dogs! I really respect people like you when they do such huge work to get this breed recognized by the FCI! The Kangal really derseves this chance and I will look forward to that day hopefully comes.. Good luck! :D
Sevgili Montana çok teşekkürler.Köpeklerimizi en iyi sekilde tanitmaya ugrasiyoruz Senin de KANGALİN varmı?Umarım daha cok konusuruz.Sevgiler... Ayrıca kendi dilimizde yazmamız biraz garip olmazmı.Insanlar yanlıs anlayabilir.Hoscakal. I would like to write in English all the time but if anybody wants to ask me something in Turkish they are welcome but through private mails please. Thanks again Montana .
Dear Charlotte ,thank you very much.I had a quick look at your web page and good like to you too with your own breed.
Onur thank you for your information. And Charlotte, Aleksa, Recercare Wolf thank you to. At last we got a Turkish Shepherd dog breeder who has practical information and knowledge. After 2,5 years of research to Turkish shepherd dog breeders my personal favourite is Onur Kanli. I heard of him then i made a neutral investigation…never saw him advertising himself? never heard him say that he is a ekspert? and so on. I only heard positif things... There is so much people in Turkey who’s admire him ore has dogs from his bloodlines…and after that his personality in al those years knever changes. It was me who asked him to be a member of this site…For me and a lot of people in Turkey and outsite Turkey he is the agent of Turkish Shepherd Dogs. Who’s give up everyting and choose for this life in a distant (Oyaca Haymana) village where it is in the winter 7ore 8 degrees lower than Ankara.. Working, (Breeding) and care for Flocks and Shepherd dog in that (wether) circumstances is not easy. Onur i know you have a very busy life. This year in May when I and Kubilay was invited by you we saw you behind your computer, at least 35mails you must answer 8O :) i hope you can make time to write and answer questions from members of this site. Kindly Greetings to everybody. M. Sonmezer Holland
Dear Wolf ,thanks a lot.I am enjoying it already.My only worry is that I might not have enough time to contribute because of my other duties in time .I will try my best for sure.
Dear Sönmezer thank you once more.You worked very hard and put many pictures some of which I have never seen before.It may sound funny but sometimes people take pictures and you never see them. It is our duty to have the knowledge of our dogs not only for ourselves bu for everybody.Othervise we will have more Anatolian..... breed of dogs that we have never seen ,or heard of before. Dear friends I have been away from technology for a long time and haven't practiced English enough.I can only write by one finger.I am a slow writer.Take care.....Onur Kanli
[blockquote]Dear Recercare if you start a question with a comment ,I don't think that you will take my answer seriously.[/blockquote] Don't worry about that Onil. I take your answers seriously. I asked the question because I know people who have different LGD breeds working together in the same flock of sheep, and who notice some general differences in the way they work. Of course this is not a scientific proof of breed differences, it's just observations from experienced farmers. It can very well be that it's just differences among individuals, not breeds. It was not my intention to critisize or claim that one breed is better than the other, but to ask whether you'd done any observations on this issue.
welcome boss! this is akin.
Dear Kangal Prof Onur Hoca. Welcome to molosser dogs website. We are looking forward to your posts to inform and educate the world about our beautiful Turkish Kangal Dogs. Kangal Godfather.
Dear Recercare, I agree with you.Even the littermates maye have different behaviours under different management. As far as I heard European breed of LGD's are not as succesful in America as they used to be in Europe.I think this is because of too much socialization.Also they are mainly bred for shows there.This may happen to Kangal as well.Away from trditional methods and under such strict rules (animal laws),with lots of socialization plus shows, they will definately loose some of their characteristics. We can not say that every Kangal and Akbash work very well.We have to choose and breed accordingly.As I said before working Akbash numbers are limited so it is wrong to make generalizations at the moment.They need a come back.We are working on it and we will see what happens afterwards.
Thanks Akin , and well done with the Turkish Mastif pictures.I think you should give some more examples .Like one Kangal and one Turkish Mastif each time so that our friends can see the differences.You should also show the size diferences.Please be carefull while choosing pictures because there are some Kangal and T. Mastiff mixes which resemble both breeds. Dear friends this is another problem that we are having at the moment.People who are not aware of the breeds mix them to have bigger dogs.They think that they are the same.
Thank you K. Godfather.I am here to learn as well.We will exchange ideas and try to understand other LGD's. As far as I am concerned ,I am not an expert.I am an observer and breeder. In our country every book writer is considered as expert which is wrong.Most of the books are not based on experiments.They simply show the interest of the writer .One can not write a book just by travelling and talking to people about dogs and taking pictures.Since our dogs are LGD's they can be observed best while working.Best wishes.Onur,neither Boss nor Professor .
[blockquote]Thank you K. Godfather.I am here to learn as well.We will exchange ideas and try to understand other LGD's. As far as I am concerned ,I am not an expert.I am an observer and breeder. In our country every book writer is considered as expert which is wrong.Most of the books are not based on experiments.They simply show the interest of the writer .One can not write a book just by travelling and talking to people about dogs and taking pictures.Since our dogs are LGD's they can be observed best while working.Best wishes.Onur,neither Boss nor Professor .[/blockquote] Now I see why people respect you that much Onur. World of dogs would be much better place if there are more people like you.
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hi boss(onur kanli) okey i try. no problem! :wink:
Hi ! There is been lot of talking about interaction between the size and working abillity of LGDs.We can hear often a theory about mid-sized dogs and that theory speaking that mid-sized dogs having better working abillity than big lgd's.According to that kind of theory,smaller and lighter dogs are better in moving,running,more agile,they eat less...So,they should be better for moving through the mountain or desert high-planes.Big sized dogs usually staying near mountain village,near home,to guarding.As we know, cao could be very different sizes,depending on the type.Consider that mid-size cao is dog about,let's say... 75cm at shoulders and about 55kg. for male.Bigger size cao's could be a dogs above 80cm and 65-70kg. Quite simillar situation is with kangals,I would say... If we looking average size ,kangals are even bigger than caos.But... at the same time,those big kangals(or cao's) looking like dogs with phenomenal working abillity.Most of the dogs which I saw(on the photos and some in the movies) are very fit,athletic and looking like very seriously dogs.And my experience with bigger dog(cao) telling me that things are not so simple.They bigger dogs can be very quick runner,can moving easy through the very harsh terrain,for very long time.And there's needs for food(compare with other big non-lgd's breeds) are so small.Personally,I prefer much bigger dogs,with strong and correct built,but I'll would like to hear some first-hand experiences about that, from the kangal breeders. Also,in the gallery ,we can see many nice pictures of beautiful and impressive kangals.But pictures of running or jumping or other action photos of kangals are very rare.Is there anyone who got some action photos of kangals? I really would love to see that.Think that they dogs looking most beautiful when they are in movement. Thanks... My regards
hi gile, my english is not good.but i can understand %50.i think u wanna kangal photos on training or other action! i have it.i try upload this web site! now!
Dear Ugur and Oktug thank you very much.I couldn't write before as you already know I lost one of my favorite young dogs.During the first snow of the year 5 days ago he fell in a well and died.He grew up with the sheep but it was his first week with the flock up in the hills.
Dear Gile, some peple who have smaller dogs claim that big dogs can not work well.This is not true.Many of my working dogs are above avarage.They work very well and some of them are proven wolf killers.I agree with you, big dogs with correct bone structure can be very fast and agile. At certain point they need power as well.How powerful can a 40 kilo dog can be.It can only be fast enough to run away from the wolves. The pictures here of course show some of the popular dogs which is very normal.Dogs shown as 70-80 kilos can not be more than 55-60 kilos while working.Our shepherds are poor and the dogs work under very difficult conditions.The rest is exaggeration.For a working Kangal more than 60 kilos is too much.When peple talk about weight this should be kept in mind.With less exercise and a lot of food Kangals can be 70-80 kilos or more. I personally preffer bigger dogs with correct type and structure.
Akın ,Gile bey egitim degil de surude kosarken veya hareket halindeki Kangal resimlerini soruyor.Varsa bir zahmet koyuver.Resimleri biraz kucultursen sayfa duzeni de bozulmaz.Selamlar.....
Hello Onur Considering that many wolves weigh 30-45 kg... don't you think 40 kg dogs can be capable of protecting sheep from these wolves? Is it not more about guts and temperament than power? If 40kg for a dog is too little, then bitches from the breeds Kuvasz, Maremma, Estrela, Cuvac, Tatra Dog, Laboreiro could never have been used as LGDs for centuries.
I have seen a documantery about the difference between a Wolf and a GSD in Kroatia. They grew up together. And so far as i saw en know they has around the same weight and high. The difference what i saw is the Wolf was stronger, and had much more condition. Three dogs from 40kg could defend and kill together one wolf. The Shepherds in Turkey wo are using shepherd dogs from 35-40 kilos are using (at least) 3 shepherd dogs. But when they use one dog most of the time these are Shepherd dogs from around the 60 kilo’s. In Van (East Turkey) people used between 20-30 dogs around 35kilo’s (Zaar) most of those dogs where split apart by Wolfes. You could only find their tails ore a peace of their ears. A dog from around 60kilo has a bigger vision/look this could be a good advantage to scare the Wolf. I don’t want to say that the Wolfs would not attack when they see a bigger shepherd dog. But it could be a advantage. And Wolf hunting most of the time (ore almost) together. I give an example: In wildlife 1 hyena shall has the guts to steal the food from 2 ore maby 3 cheeta’s ore from 1 leopard. But 1 hyena has not the guts to steel it from a 1 lioness. There must be at least 3 hyena’s to have success and try to chase 1 lioness away. And even she is chased away it’s during a long vice versa fight. (And we don’t talk about Lions know)
It sounds logical Sonmezer, but some shepherds were poor and didn't have enough food to keep more than 1 dog. I'm sure that dog, even it was 40kg, must have made a difference or the shepherds would never used it.
Recercare if we say guts ,temperament plus power we can agree.Dogs do not have to fight wolves alone .There are many shepherds dogs as well that they have to fight while working. 40 kilos of dogs can fight wolves they can even kill them but what about a fight between 4 wolves and 2 fourty kilos of dogs. I prefer 40 kilo dog with guts and right temperament of course to a 100 kilo dog without these qualities.Also why not have bigger dogs with more power.In Turkish we say (it is its' heart that makes the dog a dog).This is a direct translation,it did not sound very English to me .Guts is the first thing that we should look for in a LGD.
Our grazing system is little different than Europe .Our flocks go to higher places and don't come back until it snows heavily.Especially in hot summer sheep can graze only at nights.With one dog and hundreds of sheep the management is very difficult.Wolves are very intelligent animals and they can easily trick a single dog.One wolf goes first from one direction while the others wait .If your dog is not experienced enough and starts chasing the first wolf he sees, a loss of sheep is very possible.If you graze the sheep during the daylight one dog can be enough.The wolves attack mainly at dawn or sunset.It is very rear to see a wolf attact during the day.
Shepherds have to use any dog available.In the western parts of Turkey where there are no wolves left, people even use hunt dogs just to bark in case of emergency.You can not do it in Central or Eastern Anatolia ,the wolves would eat your dog first.
I think it all depends on location. In Norway you'll seldom find big wolf packs. If you're lucky you'll see 2 wolves hunting together. Nevertheless shepherds always use 2 or 3 dogs to protect livestock (Usually Maremma, Great P. or Tatra Dog). Just like in Turkey it's a tradition to bring the sheep up to the mountains where they graze until winter arrives. However, we do not have extreme heat during daytime. Sweden is quite different. The sheep are kept in fenced-in pastures. They don't have the mountain grazing tradition.
I have seen at least 10 wolves together in Sarıkamıs.Fıve ,six very normal in central Anatolia especially these days since at last hunting wolves throught the year was banned 15 months ago.Now people will understand why LGDs are really important. Last year in Erzurum 11 wolves attacted a flock where two of my 14 months old Kangals were working.The experienced bitch was in heat and was not with the flock.Wolves divided into two 9 in one group and 2 in the other it was the dogs first fight with tha wolves.We lost the one which went after the first group.They simply killed the dog until his brother and the shepherd was there to help. In Kars region in Winter they tie the dogs close to each other to protect them from the wolves. Two days ago my friend called me and said that wolves killed 16 sheep which was guarded by only one Maremma.This was in Sweden ,very close to you.They wanted to know how many Kangals they needed to guard that flock.As you have said they have fences there and Kangals need to be trained for such condition since they are used to working with a shepherd. Our sheep sleep in an open area .They are not kept indoors during that period.The wolves may attact any time at night.The lazy looking dogs during the day time change dramatically at night because it is time to work.
Centuries ago wolves existed in various parts of Scandinavia. Then they were driven back to certain areas. Now their territory is expanding again, and farmers in small communities dislike the wolves' return. They are not prepared as they have no knowledge about LGDs and totally inadequate fences. A LGD in Scandinavia, especially in Norway, must be very laid back against humans. The grazing pastures up in the mountains are open for everyone (hikers, tourists etc.). -and because most farmers don't use shepherds to supervise the dogs it is very important that they don't disturb or attack humans. Actually, a tourist should be able to pass a flock of sheep at close distance without being barked or growled at.
Dear Recercare under these curcimstances farmers should either give up sheep grazing or exterminate all the predators.Then they will have no problem and no need for LGDs.
You have a point Onur, but killing all predators is not an option. However, I believe the Norwegian way of farming must change. As I see it there're three solutions. 1. Instead of sending sheep to the mountain they must use fenced-in pastures in the lowlands. Preferably 5 or 6 farms can join forces. (share pastures, build a good fence and invest in LGDs.). 2. 9 or 10 farmers can hire a shepherd with LGDs and send the sheep to the mountains. As the shepherd is always there he can control the dogs. 3. Work on finding or train a dog breed that can be a labrador towards humans and a fierce fighter against predators.
They can change their way of farming but as long as they think that this planet is for only humans it will not work. They can have a solution when they realize that we have to share our plenets with every single creature living on earth without changing their nature according to our needs.Regards...
Selam Onur agbi.. welcome on this site, it is quite amusing that you also here are .You are on of the real experience kangal breeder from Turkey and you are certain that right person that all questions perfectly can answer. Many success and enjoy here. with kind greeting from Holland Kubilay Kurtgozoglu
Kubilay ,thank you very much.I hope everything is fine with you and with your dogs. We had a meeting today with the Ministry of Agriculture and things are getting better.It is likely that thay will reduce the amount of money they are charging for pedegrees.Take care.Onur....
Onur first my condolances to the lost of one of your favorite young dogs. The one who whas at work and fell during the first snow in a well.. So far i can remember it was one of the 4 brothers that i saw in may05 when i was a guest. Im happy to hear your positif news about the meeting with the Ministry of Agriculture. And i wish you a nice trip. Best regards WKGr M. Sonmezer
Hi Onur, It was pleasure for me to found you here in these web site. I wish you success in your dog activity and all the best. Sincerely yours, Nick (Bulgaria) [quote=onur]Dear friends, My name is Onur Kanli. I am the chairman of the Turkish Shepherds' Dogs Protection Society in Turkey and Turkish Kennel Club representative of the Turkish dogs. Our club is very new and we started registering all the dog breeds living in Turkey. We are in contact with the FCI. So far we have had 2 shows under FCI judges. We don't recognize a breed called Anatolian. Such a breed never existed in our country. This is what we told FCI. Kangal and Akbash dogs are judged under different catagories during our shows. What is an Anatolian? Mixture of our dogs. Kangal, Akbash, Kars dog, Yoruk and Turkish Mastiff. Even some mongrels. First dog taken to England were Kangals but taken from Konya region. I personally met the lady who imported the first Turkish dogs to England. At that time there were no breed awearness in our country. I am talking about 40 years back. Finding a name to register them was necessary. At that time general name as Shepherd's Dog(Coban Kopegi) was told to the lady. Finding a name was very simple then. They came from Anatolia and they were shepherds' dogs. Anatolian Shepherd dog was a perfect name. In practice it is not only the name that we object. This makes the discussion very simple. Then some other people introduced tri-color, mixed dogs to England and managed to register them under the same name. In England there are two clubs now. ASDC and AKDC. AKDC has Kangals and ASDC have mixtures. But since The English K.C. registers only Anatolians as it has always been all the dogs are shown under this name. AKDC is working very hard to change the name to Kangal. We attended a meeting together with their secretary at the English Kennel Club. The meeting was very succesful for us. E.K.C. is going to attend to our next show in May. I am sure that one day Kangal will be recognized by every authority in the world. As the Turkish Kennel Club we are making our moves slowy but surely. In such a big country no one should expect to have only one breed of dog. By the help of scientific studies we hope that we will introduce all our dogs to the world. I agree that only color does not make a breed. In our standards Kangal is in the shades of fawn with black mask and ears. I have seen pictures of mixed dogs or other breed of dogs shown as Kangals here. These are just ideas without a proof and they don't help to the recognition of Kangal Dog worldwide. Best wishes. Onur Kanli, Turkey[/quote]
Dear Nick I am glad to see you here as well.I was in the USA for a while, so, sorry about the late answer.Have you managed to get a Kangal puppy or are you still looking?
Hello everybody, Do you think a Kangal can work with a herding dog in the same field? I believe we have the greatest flock guardians in Turkey however we simply do not have a very talented herding dog (as far as I know). have you ever tried to pair up a kangal with a herding dog in the same field? Say a Border Colie and Kangal? Do you think it is a good match? A friend of mine is asking this question who has a very large herd. I told him that it won't work out. I think a Kangal would go nuts when a nipping BC is around. Tell me what you think Thank you
Merhaba Onur abi, From a distance i am able to watch your good work regarding Turikish breeds. As a dog lover my thanks. I think its very important to make sure all the Turkish breeds will latst as purebreds. Lets start to make standards for all different types of our dogs and create our own FCI, so we can recognize or own dogs. For this its important tot found institiutions. Or else sombody else wil recognize our dogs and mix them, whith te risk of losing their name, origins and behaviour. Selam Ali Riza Kucukozel Holland origin Sivas
Dear Ali Rıza, we have already prepared the standarts of various Turkish breeds and gave to FCI.Our federation is working closely with FCI.We have already had 4 shows with FCI judges.At these shows all our breeds were evaluated seperatly. If we solve some problems in our country we will be a member of FCI very soon. FCI rule says that every counrtry gives the name of her dogs and prepares the standarts.This means that we are on the right path.Best wishes.Onur.