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WHITE ENGLISH BULL TERRIER / PIT BULL CROSS
 
Quote · 2537 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
FRIENDS WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS CROSS?
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why would you make a cross like that. same origin diffrent dogs. they are a seperate breed for a reason.
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send i pic so i can criticize or not..i gotta see what it looks like
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What's wrong with using a colored Bull Terrier?
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[quote=jaymz]FRIENDS WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS CROSS?[/quote]my friend has this very cross.good looking dog,and very people friendly.she did have a high prey drive,and some dog agression problems
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i really dont no until u get a pic posted.. and ur grammar is bad orthos
Quote · 2532 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=TCraig00]i really dont no until u get a pic posted.. and ur grammar is bad orthos[/quote]sorry about the bad grammar friend ,i'm doing the best i can to learn the language.i'm gonna have to take a trip to texas so i can get some pictures.all i can say is that it looks like an indian or pakistany bullterrier
Quote · 2522 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=Paint]why would you make a cross like that. same origin diffrent dogs. they are a seperate breed for a reason.[/quote] A concern for the breed (EBT). Show breeders are eventually going to have to face the truth. The damage they're done to their respective breeds will compromise their existence. They're so close to the end, that simply changing the rules won't be enough, they're going to have to aggressively out-cross, and I think APBTs and Greyhounds will be the top dogs of choice. EBs, ASTs, EBTs, FBs, these breeds would all benefit from APBT out-crossing. Not to say that other dogs can't/won't be used, such as the LB or AB, but most AKC types probably aren't knowledgable enough to know of those breeds.
Quote · 2521 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
This is a popular cross in South Africa. My friend has 2. Their heads look like EBT heads but with a pronounced stop. They have erect ears. They have the bodies of EBT's Another friend has a 2 month old cross. Her head type is closer to pure EBT. Has slight stop and her ears are starting to picuk up/ She has the body of the APBT. More athletic than above. The dogs I mentioned earlier are highly aggressive to both man and animal. My friends 2month already snaps at slightest provocation. I think this may be coz both owners don't know how to handle these dogs. They do stupid things wrap towels around their arms and taunt the dog by blowing into its face until it gets angry and bites the towel. They think that this will make them better guard dogs??????? My uncle used to do the same stupid stuff with his EBT. That dog bit into his neices face. She needed palstic surgery. Bad owners = bad dogs
Quote · 2521 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
2 different sets of breeding rules...APBT & EBT... and your friends are idiots...why don't you school your friends since your such a pitbull advocate :wink:
Quote · 2521 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
I try to explain without sounding like a pompous ass but they don't listen. Also they are the sort of people who get those dogs for their ego and image..you know wat I mean? My friend with the 2month old cross has in his yard now 1. One car chaser mongrel with a broken back leg 2. A very thin male boerboel with massive frame and head thats covered in ticks. 3. A 1 year old female rott he got from a good breeder. She is perfect in every way. Anyway he didn't spay her when I suggested it and at the tender age of 1 she is mom to 6 mongrels. He just gets dogs so he can say hey look wat I got and tehn neglects them...so sad
Quote · 2521 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
nunbug, no offense ment by this, but why,with you being into dogs, would you still associate with this person? personally, if i had a "friend" that couldn't properly care for his/her animals, i would do what i could to get the dogs out and leave it at that. your "friend" is a great example of why so many breeds are getting bad rep. again, the seemingly accepted attitude here applies...bad owners=bad dogs. this is just my take on things though.
Quote · 2521 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
orthos are you greek? and I saw wat dog you were talking about. I guess it doesn't look so bad
Quote · 2520 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Hey flukie. You know the thing is for all the crap his dogs have been through they stil have wonderful temperaments. The broke leg mongrel, the thin boerboel and rottie are extremely friendly and social and when I visit him I take along tick and flea treatment and try and help them. They are good animals and I won't abandon them. In addition although I said some harsh words about him here his neglect seems to stem from ignorance rather than maliciousness and I really do think he will come around. The rottie Ive known since she was a pup and she let me hold one of her pups after they were born and I hadn't seen her for a long while..you know protective they can get. She's such a good dog. Sticking to principles is important but the welfare of animals is even more important.
Quote · 2520 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Also if i do get the dogs out i have no resources to care for them. They will end up in the shelter and get put down. Lesser of 2 evils.
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nunbug...i get the lesser of 2 evils that you mean. if the dogs still have good temperments, consider everyone involved to be lucky. mypersonal advise to you would be to educate your friend as much and as often as possible. find out what kind of punishment he could possible face in your area and make your friend aware that properly caring for an animal is ALWAYS cheaper than going through the other possibilities. hopefully, this will open his eyes to what he's doing. sorry, i'll get off my soapbox, but i just can not understand how people think and this is another example of the craziness of life.
Quote · 2517 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Our dogs of choice are usually rough dogs. They like to hunt,fight and play hard. If and when they get hurt it hurts us and we do our best to patch em up. When it comes to neglecting dogs I get very emotional. First reaction is to beat the holy hell out of the perpetrater. That soon passes and I just feel sad for the dogs and chalk up another reason to dislike the human race.
Quote · 2510 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Why would any fool want to croos a pure bred english bull terrier with a mongrel pitbull. If on the other hand the pitbull was a pure bred and atleast 10 generations of pure pitbull why would this dog be put with the english bull terrier. Man took a long time breeding and creating two perfect breeds. Then some numbnuts comes along and thinks he can make a nice dog in the first breeding = stupidity. Crossing to get the outcome wanted takes many any generations and a lot of culling. Why not just by a american stafford in the first place,coz this must be what your after to breed two such dogs in first place. The pitbull is a supreme fighting dog thats pretty good around people when well socialised,the english bull terrier is not as comfortable around people as the pitbull terrier. Now when you cross the two dogs you have no idea of what is going to happen. you might not even get dogs that look similar to any of them. the progeny will be mongrels,strong mongrels but mongrels. With so much breed legislation problems do you realy think this cross will benefit either breed ? i dont think so. as for why was the coloured bull terrier not in the mix ws probably because that is not pure english bull terrier,it has other breeds in with it. just an honest opinion from the uk .
Quote · 2251 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
dragging up an old post but just had to comment on the best dog I have ever owned it was a white APBT x White EBT went by the name of Rebel I got him from a guy in NC that had his mother the Apbt she was a short stocky dog went oh about 40 pounds only saw a picture of his father which went about 55 pounds I got Rebel as a 8 week old pup and he grew to look like the old style EBT except he did not fave standing ears more like the APBT he was an extremely athletic dog and was great with other animals and people the most loving dog on the planet and loved kids and was very protective over them me and my family he would always stay in between my little cousins and any kind of danger (so he thought to them) be it the road or the cattle and horses behind our house he would never start a dog fight and was very laid back the only time I ever saw him in a dog fight was my nieghbor got a "ghetto" pitt bull and it got loose and came at me and he stepped in and commenced to "mop" the ground with that dog as well I was charged at by a cow with a young calf and he grabbed a ear until I could get out of the way and call him off the smartest most loyal dog I have ever owned he learned things so quickly it was unreal.... sadly he passed away all to young at a little over a year old due to unknown causes went out one afternoon and he was having a siezure we took a trip to the vet where he slipped into a comma like siezure and could not be helped so vet said there was nothing we could do and he had to be put down brings tears to my eyes to this day if I had the chance to own another dog of this type I would surely jump at the chance .... R.I.P. Rebel My Old Friend You Will Always Be Missed Dearly............. Thanks guys for reading my rambling on about my "super" dog and please guys keep any negative talk about my post or old friend to yourself ...however if anyone wants more details on more about the experience I had with this cross I would be happy to oblige
Quote · 2251 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Sounds like one hell of a dog you had there T. Lee. Its too bad that all dogs arent created equal. But then again some people dont deserve to have such an animal as an aquaintance and friend. Any way...this is just a guess but I'd imagine that your dogs parents being both pure white had a big part in his early demise. About the only pure white breed of dog that comes to mind that doesnt have inherent health issues is a Samoyed. I knew a lady who had a mostly white German Shorthaired Pointer and that thing would have been dead by 3 months old had it not been for medication. Its always a bad idea to breed dogs or anything else for looks. Sorry about your dog. It was a nice story you told of him.
Quote · 2251 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Yea he was a heck of a dog really truly was .... I had wandered that about the white as well myself but was just a theory on my part .. and yes I could own a hundred of the same cross again and never have one that came close to my old friend who was if any dog was a friend which is what a dog should be first and foremost
Quote · 2251 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
yes .......I meant to ad as well that the other pups in this litter i beleave 8 all together were all of the same type... looking very much like the old style EBT with out the standing ears and as I heard they all had much of the same temperment.... I personally beleave if this cross was done correctly in a "proffesional" manner one in the end could come out with a dog as close to the original EBT as you could get and perhaps a little better just my 2 cents maybe wrong but couldnt we all be .....
Quote · 2251 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
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Both breeds have allot going for them and it sounds like a good cross to me. One concern might be aggresiveness towards people? I dont know a whole heaping bunch about English Bull Terriers but from what I've heard they arent as gentle to strangers as a pitbull thats been bred the way they should be. I curse the pricks who started breeding people biting pitbulls. As a rule you couldnt get the old game breds to bite a person for love nor money
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Theres allot of good info.there Wolf. And theres also a bunch of nonsense It seems that your opinions are straight out of a book and are actually dog show peoples opinions and not your own? James Hinks never intended a Bullterrier to be a fighting dog and they're not. They are rough,tough dogs but they arent deep game. They would stand little or no chance in a match with a game bred pitbull. That old thing about a bullterrier winning a dog show and a match all in the same day is BS. Also. A pitbull Terrier was never called a terrier until they were considered a breed by the show people. They were only known as a bulldog. Though a crossing between the two would make a fine animal indeed...no true bulldog person would ever dream of trying to use the cross breed as a fighting dog. Theres a very large chance that you would lose the game trait all together. Why try to perfect something that took so long to achieve when its already perfect at what it does? It would be like adding Shar Pei blood to make a better pointer.
Quote · 2250 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
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[quote=badams] That old thing about a bullterrier winning a dog show and a match all in the same day is BS. Also. A pitbull Terrier was never called a terrier until they were considered a breed by the show people. They were only known as a bulldog. Though a crossing between the two would make a fine animal indeed...no true bulldog person would ever dream of trying to use the cross breed as a fighting dog. Theres a very large chance that you would lose the game trait all together. Why try to perfect something that took so long to achieve when its already perfect at what it does? It would be like adding Shar Pei blood to make a better pointer.[/quote] LOL, I'm sorry I'm no expert, but everything I have seen is contradictory to your statements. The easiest to mention is a book written about the turn of the century called, "The Sporting Bull Terrier" by Eugene Glass you should look it up, it has been recently reprinted. The book makes mention of shows, but is full of sporting facts, lineage, training and other wonderful bits of history. There are several other books published from the late 1800s- the early 1900s. Granted, there were bulldog types, the overwhelming population was and is known as the American Pit BULL TERRIER. You will find a lot of what you are claiming is contrary to this and many other publications and dogmen's practices.
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punk my ass :wink:
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Jock of the Bushveldt is part of South Africa's heritage and there is a book and movie on his exploits. Im so proud and happy to see a part of South African culture being mentioned on MD. I've always wondered about Jocks exact parentage and what exact breed of dog he was..very informative post.
Quote · 2241 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
What would be the purpose of such a cross?And with so many seperate strains within the apbt breed[some pure and some far from it],alot would depend on what line the dog came from.If the apbt was of top quality i dont see what a bull terrier could bring to the table that wasnt already there,although apbt blood just might improve the bull terrier breed,then again maybe not.I figure that the bull terrier is what it is because the breeders,show folk,and pet buying community wanted it that way,infusion of the apbt blood would screw that up.. however,You'd have to think that for a working bull terrier,the cross would be benifical ,but why make the cross when you can get a pure bred apbt that would be all you wanted from the cross in a pure strain that already exist's.Im not sure that there is a point to the cross..
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KeItH wrote: [blockquote]What would be the purpose of such a cross?[/blockquote] I was thinking this very thing myself. Or have we missed something in this thread?
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[quote="Denno"]KeItH wrote: [blockquote]What would be the purpose of such a cross?[/blockquote] I was thinking this very thing myself. Or have we missed something in this thread?[/quote]No,we didnt miss anything. It was a straight up question,with a simple answer,"WHY"?
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From what I've been told, severely line bred APBTs tend to loose bite power. The EBT has an extremely strong jaw. They are pretty common in the Chicago area and with certain lines. Cool dogs too.
Quote · 2241 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=Igmuska]From what I've been told, severely line bred APBTs tend to loose bite power..[/quote]Well, some of the hardest biting apbt[gamebred]dogs of all time were severly line bred,in fact very little of them were scatter bred,most scatter bred dogs were discounted as cur's.If the linebred dogs were selected for a hard mouth thats what the progeny would have,although if it did happen a out cross to another line with a hard bite would correct it,i dont see why theyed go to the 'ebt"possably sacrificing gameness and stamina although i do know some ,[for a lack of better word] gamebull terriers are to be found.
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Keith, we're talking about APBTs, not AmStaffs or pet-bulls/American Bullies. :P :wink:
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[quote=Wolf]Keith, we're talking about APBTs, not AmStaffs or pet-bulls/American Bullies. :P :wink:[/quote]Ya, i may have a amstaff,but he's still a hard nosed dog,thats niether here nor there.But if we "were" talking amstaff's possably the hybrid vigor factor could come to play and make for a better cross then either of the breeds in there pure form,then again maybe not.as for american bullie,who's to say there hasnt been "ebt" already crossed into it?and as far as game dogs,it cant benift from the crossing of another breed,only out crossing to another strain,i dont have to own one to no that much,the dog is the best at what it does,random cross breeding would create instability in type and temperment,probably creating man biters as a matter a fact,what would be to gain from a few good specimins amongst a pile of trash dogs,and what would be the point,nobody,not even the individual who started the thred said what the goal of such a breeding would be,its basically like saying'what do you think of the zebra horse cross or "why dont people put strawberry jelly on tuna fish sandwiches",if the breeding has no point it shouldnt be done. evaluate the reasons you want to do the breeding and then set goals before even asking the question,jmo?
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Im not claiming to know it all,i do know a bit though. As far as wannabe dogmen,im not sure about what your implying,but thats fine,whatever. most the apbt people i keep in contact with are neither dogmen nor wanna be dogmen but people who are well versed in the breed and its history. And for the record,im not regurgitating the same old played ethics about the game dog never biting or guading or being incapable of such due to breeding and selection so again im not quite sure im following you,but thats fine.cheers to continued research everyone could benift from it. keith p.s,the only thing puzzling me was the reason for the breeding,it seems like this topic had went way off track from the o.p's topic long before i posted
Quote · 2232 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
Does breeding a Miniature EBT to an APBT have a different effect on temperment - or anything else other than size - than breeding a standard EBT to an APBT does? I'd imagine that the Standard EBT would be great for adding size if size were desired. But since many pit men purposefully bred/preferred smaller dogs, the toy EBT, assuming it has all the qualities of the standard EBT sans size, would've been an even more ideal out-cross.
Quote · 2231 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
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there would be no point for the breeding,many game dogs are already in the high 20's or low 30's in weight,plus you'd lose the desired traits of the gamedog "gameness".Also dog fighters of old main goal was neither size nor aesthetic but a winning dog and more importantly a game dog,thats why some of the game dogs of yesterday were larger,it ceartinly wasnt the norm but they did exist,plumbers alligator,colbys pincher and the famous "roll' dog trussels dum dum are among those..
Quote · 2231 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
But, J.P. Colby was known for using Bull Terriers AND bulldogs in his APBT's. Which, also could go along with the explanation of why his dogs like galtie and red and white paddy were barely 30lbs and Pincher and the Twister dogs were Over catchweight... It is my belief that crossing a bull terrier and a pitbull will NOT take away from the pit in any way, but add to it. Plus, now that you brought up the fighters of old not caring for the size of game dogs so long as they were game.... How about their use of Pointer and Labrador Retriever?? That would explain the size increase, That would explain the chocolate colored dogs. They would use the Lab and Pointer to increase the Prey drive. Lets face it, when a Pitbull is fighting, it is not an ordinary mindset. they are hunting the other dog. For gods sake, they do the same thing to a dead dog that they do to live one's. Just like terriers. A terrier will freak out over a dead rodent as much as a live one, and they are HUNTING the vermin. Plus, a lab is a dog who has absolutely NO problem scrapping with other dogs, and aren't man aggressive, 2 traits that were HIGHLY selected for in the game dog circle. I mean, look in the old Stratton books... How many of them old dogs had long houndy ears. In fact, he even talked about that, so did Semencic. If you doubt any of this part, look into finding out about a common cross of pitbull/labrador called the Bela Lugosi or Lugosi bulldog or Belagosi Bulldog. In Fact, Larry Koura of Rode Hawg kennels used to have a kennel video out. In this video, he explained where the Black AB came from.... From the addition of Belagosi Bulldog into 2 lines, and then crossing them, hence doubling up on the black genes, and POOF!!! Black Ab's. As for the Mini-BT, I like them for what they are,mini BT.... I wouldn't use them for ANY crossings, as they are a train wreck with health issues. Heres what to expect when doing that cross of EBT x APBT
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You might be able to guarantee a tough look, but can you guarantee the heart? Gameness is a quality of the individual dog rather than the breed.
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[quote=Denno]You might be able to guarantee a tough look, but can you guarantee the heart? Gameness is a quality of the individual dog rather than the breed.[/quote] No. You can't. It has happened in the past with game dogs bred to game dogs and the offspring not having the fight desire. You can take 2 unrelated dogs, where all the ancestors are hd clear or ofa excellent, and end up with an entire litter of cripples. You can't guarantee anything when your dealing with genetics.
Quote · 2231 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=Wolf]The Miniature Bullterrier and the standard EBT really are two different breeds. They only look similar, but the Mini is actually much more of a terrier than its bigger cousin. Overall closer to a JRT than the EBT in temperament. Also, the Mini has more health issues, so that's something to take into consideration. Personally, I wouldn't use the Mini breed at all.[/quote] Thanks for the info. I'm glad you made the distinction. I had heard that the Mini EBT was much more terrier, but wasn't sure. Further, the Standard EBT's comical behavior and gregarious nature sound very terrier to me. I simply assumed that of the show variety the mini EBT was able to retain more terrier traits as a smaller dog is easier to maintain. However, I would think that possessing more terrier traits would make a gamer dog. Health issues can't go ignored, but shouldn't the Miniature be more favorable, theoretically, than the standard due to his personality? As for reality, if someone wanted to salvage the Miniature - as Leavitt and others have the Bulldog - would the APBT and the Iggy be good out-crosses? [quote=KeItH]there would be no point for the breeding,many game dogs are already in the high 20's or low 30's in weight,plus you'd lose the desired traits of the gamedog "gameness".Also dog fighters of old main goal was neither size nor aesthetic but a winning dog and more importantly a game dog,thats why some of the game dogs of yesterday were larger,it ceartinly wasnt the norm but they did exist,plumbers alligator,colbys pincher and the famous "roll' dog trussels dum dum are among those..[/quote] the anecdotes are interesting. However, if the Miniature has the crushing jaw strength and substance that the larger version has, then you'd introduce the Miniature for the same reason. Also, even though larger bull-terriers have existed, and some might prefer those dogs, and all efforts to preserve game dogs, whatever their aesthetic characteristics, should be taken, I think we can all appreciate the practicality of having smaller dogs. [quote="crnosrce1"]But, J.P. Colby was known for using Bull Terriers AND bulldogs in his APBT's. Which, also could go along with the explanation of why his dogs like galtie and red and white paddy were barely 30lbs and Pincher and the Twister dogs were Over catchweight... It is my belief that crossing a bull terrier and a pitbull will NOT take away from the pit in any way, but add to it. Plus, now that you brought up the fighters of old not caring for the size of game dogs so long as they were game.... How about their use of Pointer and Labrador Retriever?? That would explain the size increase, That would explain the chocolate colored dogs. They would use the Lab and Pointer to increase the Prey drive. Lets face it, when a Pitbull is fighting, it is not an ordinary mindset. they are hunting the other dog. For gods sake, they do the same thing to a dead dog that they do to live one's. Just like terriers. A terrier will freak out over a dead rodent as much as a live one, and they are HUNTING the vermin. Plus, a lab is a dog who has absolutely NO problem scrapping with other dogs, and aren't man aggressive, 2 traits that were HIGHLY selected for in the game dog circle. I mean, look in the old Stratton books... How many of them old dogs had long houndy ears. In fact, he even talked about that, so did Semencic. If you doubt any of this part, look into finding out about a common cross of pitbull/labrador called the Bela Lugosi or Lugosi bulldog or Belagosi Bulldog. As for the Mini-BT, I like them for what they are,mini BT.... I wouldn't use them for ANY crossings, as they are a train wreck with health issues. Heres what to expect when doing that cross of EBT x APBT [/quote] LOL, when I first saw that dog, I thought it was a SBT. He's a handsome dog, and the idea of versatility (dog&man aggressive) is interesting. i appreciate, also, your explanation of bela Lagosi bulldogs. When I heard that term here before I thought you guys were just calling the dog of concern ugly, lol! :lol: I'll never get used to the idea of using pointers and labs, when other working dogs were available, but if it worked then that's all that should matter.
Quote · 2231 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
See, thats the thing Redeagle. You said that when you seen that white dog that you thought it was a SBT. See how easy it is to have something enriched into another breed, and fool people into thinking it can't possibly be there?? The typical Lugosi, if done the way I have personally witnessed of male lab into female pit, look like straight pits(due to the maternal grandsire effect taking over), with a bit longer muzzle, a slightly almost un-recognizably longer/thicker coat and a bit of a houndy ear. Think back and try to remember all the pits that you may have seen, and then think of how many fit that description. Its quite funny, and don't in any way take this personally, how many people who ""know"" pits and ab's DON"T know pits and ab's. You cant take the same mindset of say a GSD fancier in the context of ""well, it looks like it and acts like it, so it must be it"" when you are dealing with these bully breeds, as they are so inter-changeable it's quite mind numbing. These dogs, the AB, apbt, ebt, sbt, am staff, eb have been inter bred for so long that even amongst ""pure"" litter of AB'sand PIts that you still get erect ears and easier stops due to their EBT heritage. You still get drop ears in EBT due to certain influencial cousins. And to this day, in EB litters, you will get throw backs to long legged easy breathing dogs, due to other outside blood from 100 yrs ago. This stuff is way more complicated than most people will give it credit. You can't just say that is a pit with no bt blood, or say that ab has no EB in it or anything like that these days. What do you think of this dog?? http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-20198
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fondation stock is just that,foundation stock,it is not the breed,a breed must be established through selection and testing as you well know. Of course the apbt was established through bull and terrier crosses,however they were not established through the crossing of the modern bull terrier and to do so would create a diffrent dog than the original "american" gamedog.As for the breeding of lab into the game apbt or pointer,thats news to me,kinda like the old weimeraner ruffian story,can you provide proof of this claim, thanx
Quote · 2231 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
In Fact, Larry Koura of Rode Hawg kennels used to have a kennel video out. In this video, he explained where the Black AB came from.... From the addition of Belagosi Bulldog into 2 lines, and then crossing them, hence doubling up on the black genes, and POOF!!! Black Ab's. If i still had all the old kennel videos I had purchased i could have dubbed you a copy and you could hear it in his own voice talking about it. There was a fighter in chicago, Keminski was his name, ALL his dogs were high content EBT, and Joe Corvino bought many dogs from him(could be where lots of his man biter blood comes from). The Lugosi thing is one of things you have to told or shown in order for you to believe it. I will try and find some pics for you.
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[quote="crnosrce1"]See, thats the thing Redeagle. You said that when you seen that white dog that you thought it was a SBT. See how easy it is to have something enriched into another breed, and fool people into thinking it can't possibly be there?? The typical Lugosi, if done the way I have personally witnessed of male lab into female pit, look like straight pits(due to the maternal grandsire effect taking over), with a bit longer muzzle, a slightly almost un-recognizably longer/thicker coat and a bit of a houndy ear. Think back and try to remember all the pits that you may have seen, and then think of how many fit that description. Its quite funny, and don't in any way take this personally, how many people who ""know"" pits and ab's DON"T know pits and ab's. You cant take the same mindset of say a GSD fancier in the context of ""well, it looks like it and acts like it, so it must be it"" when you are dealing with these bully breeds, as they are so inter-changeable it's quite mind numbing. These dogs, the AB, apbt, ebt, sbt, am staff, eb have been inter bred for so long that even amongst ""pure"" litter of AB'sand PIts that you still get erect ears and easier stops due to their EBT heritage. You still get drop ears in EBT due to certain influencial cousins. And to this day, in EB litters, you will get throw backs to long legged easy breathing dogs, due to other outside blood from 100 yrs ago. This stuff is way more complicated than most people will give it credit. You can't just say that is a pit with no bt blood, or say that ab has no EB in it or anything like that these days. What do you think of this dog?? http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-20198[/quote] Thanks for the info., it's helping me to understand all of this. As for Tyson, I simply assumed APBT blood was introduced into his lineage. I know Montana knows/is assoc. with a lot of fighting kennels, which feature a variety of breeds. When did Pit Men start to introduce Lab blood? What made them favorable to Airedale or Irish terriers, or Greyhounds, or Am Bulldogs, or even the bullmastiff? I don't intend any offense saying this, but looking @ certain Sylvans that you've posted photos of, I see a striking link to popular German breeds. While the idea is that Sylvans influenced these particular German breeds, most people would probably suspect it worked the other way around. Being better informed, I'll take your word for it, but I also hope that you'll understand the point I'm making.
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[quote="crnosrce1"]In Fact, Larry Koura of Rode Hawg kennels used to have a kennel video out. In this video, he explained where the Black AB came from.... From the addition of Belagosi Bulldog into 2 lines, and then crossing them, hence doubling up on the black genes, and POOF!!! Black Ab's. [/quote]Thats fine and dandy,but that has little or nothing to do with apbts, sure experimentation did take place with cross bred dogs but nothing really ever came from it besides the original foundation crosses,Ive seen a who;e hell of alot of labxapbts all with snippy muzzles,longer hair and subpar temperments,it is almost ceartin a similar mix was tryed and failed but it dosent mean it made a impact or was intigrated into the game stock that was around at the time. As for corvino aquiring some bull terriers and crossing them into apbt/or using them,havent heard of that one.although if they did excell at the sport of dog fighting you'd figure on seeing far more of them being used
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I will quote to you from Eugene Glass' book from 1910, WORD FOR WORD. [color=orange]The origin of the Pit Bull Terrier, sometimes called the Sporting Bull Terrier, is similar to that of the English (bench show) Bull Terrier, both of whom are supposed to be the result of a cross of the old English Bulldog and the White English Terrier, with perhaps some Pointer thrown in later. In the case of the bench show dog, it is necessary that it be pure white in color, although it is seldom seen, even to this day, that each one in a litter from pure white parents is solid white. The brindle and black of the old Bulldog seems to linger and crop out unexpectedly in the offspring. Those with white markings, not eligible to show dog honors, have from time to time been trained to compete in rat killing contests, and used for bear, badger and raccoon baiting, and also for contests in the pit.[/color] He went on to say: [color=orange]These Bull Terriers with brindle and black markings, which were forced into the pit dog class, have been bred heavier and more powerful in build than the bench show type, and in some cases receive a special training for pit purposes, hence the PIT BULL TERRIER. However, notwithstanding the claims of many breeders of the pit variety, he does NOT naturally possess one whit more gameness in his make up than does his pure white brother. Take 2 dogs of equal weight, one a strictly bench show type and the other a ""dead game"" fighting dog, and the chances are just as good that the show dog will win in a fight as the pit dog will, and in many cases his gameness is greatly superior to that of the trained fighter, who perhaps loses in that respect by an outcross or some fault in rearing or early training.[/color] Look up a dog named Woodcote Wonder. He was a 51 lbs, 20 inch dog who was whelped in England. It was written in this book: [color=orange]He defeated nearly everything shown to him for nearly 10 yrs both in England and America, and won enough championships to crown half a dozen dogs champion. His stud fee was $100, and we print his picture as an illustration of a perfect type of the bench show Bull Terrier, although of late years and some faddists have been breeding a dog lighter in build and higher on his legs.[/color] Now, I'm not writing this in the hopes that you will take it serious, but I am going into this knowing full well that in return I will get "That is just 1 man's opinion and only 1 dog, come up with something more concrete". So, if after this you decide to not read what the words I wrote her for what they are, HISTORICAL WRITINGS FROM 1910, then I have no more desire to continue this conversation. I am not trying to sound like some pompous ass, but to NOT take this man's writings as history and with truth, then it would mean that you(collective) are spitting in the face of a fore comer in the breed you love. And he is not the only writer, there have been many more, including Colby, Armitage and others who have been in this game long before WWII, which is when things got much more secretive and a lot of bogus theories and stories started to creep up I.E. the whole ""pit bull is a pure bulldog"" thing. You guys need to realize the fact, and then accept it, that anything that was pure white back in the day was a bench show Bull terrier, anything that was NOT pure white, was a PIT BULL TERRIER... The Pit Bull Terrier is a by-product of the EBT.... Nothing more, nothing less. And here is your proof, I provided, word for word, the common knowledge from dogmen of 100 yrs past, that we, as supposed evolved and further along society, are still not capable of understanding.... [size=24]I AM JUST TRYING TO HELP[/size] I highly recommend to anyone interested in the EBT or the APBT to go on amazon and purchase a reprint of THE SPORTING BULL TERRIER, By EUGENE GLASS.
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bulldog, your talking about foundation stock,the o.p's question was about the modern day cross,presumably game apbt to show type egg head bullterrier.it has no purpose,you and your counterparts have a clear love for the bullterrier for some reason,thats fine,but it offers nothing to a game dog,and for the record,i heard mention of tyson and i watched the video,ill say no more but the bullterrier had seen better days,dont actually know if this was tyson or a dog of similar breeding actually,but thats niether here nor there.I have a clear understanding of the apbt and the mixing and matching of bull and terriers in the old country,dogs were selected for performance not purity of type and all thsebull and terriers share a common ancestory,that dosent mean they arent there own breeds to this day of course.As for catahoula,lab,red bone coonhound and whatever else was used as a working stock dog later on in history has know bearing on the american gamedog,even if some were registered as pure bred apbt or used as foundation stock for diffrent bulldog breeds jmo....
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Horse to water...
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Sorry for all the questions, folks, I'm just really interested. If the mini is a disaster, what about the MN, which has been so popular over the decades? Should I assume that virtually all Miniature EBT's are genetic wrecks, while some Neo's are still worth using? [quote=Wolf]Horse to water...[/quote] Wolf, I gotta bug you. Despite inferior physical traits, does the personality of the Mini EBT contribute better to working/fighting lines? I'd have also assumed that the mini has better preserved EBT qualities than the Standard variety, is that true? And, of course, would it be worth salvaging the breed by crossing in other related breeds? It seems that the mini could be useful for tasks that Pats JRT's and others are being used for in American and England.
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[quote=RedEagle]Despite inferior physical traits, does the personality of the Mini EBT contribute better to working/fighting lines?.[/quote]crossing other breeds into the game dog at this point would create lesser offspring if the purpose was for fighting. a dog such as this is no contest for this type in its pure state. To much random cross breeding going on with no reason,the real deal already exsists,ask marty' lil bit's"breeder if he would use bull terrier in his yard amd cross it into some tightly bred jeep blood,not a chance.... A modern cross of bull terrier and apbt is just some random dreamer's fantasy or potential byb's i'll concieved creation of a dog that already exsists in a pure form and has been perfected..
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Keith wrote:[blockquote]your talking about foundation stock[/blockquote] Where, in ANY of the posted quotes that I took DIRECTLY FROM THE BOOK, did I or it mention FOUNDATION STOCK??? You were not there, I was not there, NEITHER of us can say if he's talking about foundation stock. But, I [color=orange]CAN[/color] say in 1000000% confidence that NOWHERE in his book did he ever just say this is only about our foundation stock, and not what we have now(at the time in the early 1900's). Keith wrote: [blockquote]crossing other breeds into the game dog at this point would create lesser offspring if the purpose was for fighting.[/blockquote] How would you know this?? First you claim to NOT be a dogman and not a dog fighter, but you can boldly and for certain say such remarks?? Quite contradictory. Keith wrote: [blockquote]A modern cross of bull terrier and apbt is just some random dreamer's fantasy or potential byb's i'll concieved creation of a dog that already exsists in a pure form and has been perfected..[/blockquote] Again, how would you know this?? How many ebtxapbt have you seen?? in what aspects have you seen them?? And who the hell said the APBT is perfected?? The APBT dog men, the serious guys ACCEPT the fact that Game bred, tightly LINE bred dogs are skittish and shy creatures, useful for 1 thing, and 1 thing only, and you can imagine what that is... That is perfection?? A dog who will fight all day long, but is also afraid of the leaves rustling on the ground, thats perfection?? Keep it then. Keith wrote: [blockquote]As for catahoula,lab,red bone coonhound and whatever else was used as a working stock dog later on in history has know bearing on the american gamedog,even if some were registered as pure bred apbt or used as foundation stock for diffrent bulldog breeds jmo[/blockquote] Please tell me that you do NOT buy into the same line of crap that Badams and a few other do, of the APBT being a BULLDOG, and that it was the BULLDOG who brought the gameness to it.... Please tell me this isn't so... If it is, here is something for you... There is also an add on here from J.P.Colby, calling his dogs BULLTERRIERS... They are NOT BULLDOGS!! But, at the end of the day, Have a good day Mike
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[blockquote]The APBT dog men, the serious guys ACCEPT the fact that Game bred, tightly LINE bred dogs are skittish and shy creatures, useful for 1 thing, and 1 thing only, and you can imagine what that is... That is perfection?? A dog who will fight all day long, but is also afraid of the leaves rustling on the ground[/blockquote] 8O
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yep, your pretty proud of your little post there,with your horse to water stuff,lol,this horse wont drink water infected with sueage,youll get disentary that way. anyways the louder and more beligerant you post dosent mean much to me,lol,its actually funny. Firstly as for history of the white"bench" bull terrier show dog,dont care. Secondly,if they crossed fighting strains of bull and terrier into the "bench" terrier to create the colored bull terrier again,i dont give a ratts behind. Do i believe the apbt is a bulldog of old in pure form like you insinuate,[your so ready to educate others with your vast knowledge]no,so save it for another,you can get up on your self rightous soup box and pontificate at that point,i know what a apbt/amstaff is,tacoma jack was a good dog,foundation of the tacoma line,whats your point with the photo? As for all game bred dogs being fight crazy but scared of a leaf,that is a sweaping generalization,and in correct. So go ahead and cross your bull terriers to a apbt,but dont expect anything but a byb cur with un/ceartin type and temperment,possably a few good dogs would be produced for other respects,fighting not being one of them however. Also i never claim to be a dogman,never have,i do claim to have a huge intrest in the apbt,i also own the breed research the breed and talk to the breeders,game breeders and non game alike,I havent gotten my info off of some internet dogman without practical experiance nor a resume or photographs to back up any of his claims,believe it or not the apbt/amstaff is a big part of my life,and i can talk about it at length Also "mike'i know who you are,your the same dude i loaned some video's two about two years ago and you never sent them back,now your on here talking all kinds of stuff,get real and get over yourself and have fun with your fury lgd's and bull terriers. Ill stick with the apbt,you might think that its far from perfection,but the finest examples are pound for pound perfection,of course there is crap with in all breeds and all types.. Anybody who is whiling to be mislead by a argument such as"infusing the bullterrier into a modern day apbt will create a supirior dog"Is swollowing alot of b.s,hopefully others wont buy into that crap..
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And when it came time to return them, you deleted your account here, so how was i supposed to send them back?? Please, send me the address so i can send you them back. I don't have a use for them anymore. I told you 2 yrs ago when you sent them that i would send them back asap... Sorry for losing the shipping package, didn't know that was an offense. So don't go trying to sling mud here. As for the rest of your drivel, you should stick to the bandogs and amstaff dogs.... They need groupies anyways, Semencic and Stratton are getting quite old and won't be able to do it much longer. Keith wrote:[blockquote]Secondly,if they crossed fighting strains of bull and terrier into the "bench" terrier to create the colored bull terrier again,i dont give a ratts behind. fury, swollowing..[/blockquote] You really can NOT comprehend what was written there, can you? Where did it say that thats how the colored Bull Terrier was produced?? It said that is where the PIT BULL TERRIER came from. Its furry and swallowing. Keith wrote:[blockquote]of course there is crap with in all breeds and all types.. [/blockquote] Atleast something you have written here is worth while. Mike
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KeItH wrote: [blockquote]As for all game bred dogs being fight crazy but scared of a leaf,that is a sweaping generalization,and in correct.[/blockquote] On this point I agree. KeItH wrote: [blockquote]So go ahead and cross your bull terriers to a apbt,but dont expect anything but a byb cur with un/ceartin type and temperment,possably a few good dogs would be produced for other respects,fighting not being one of them however.[/blockquote] Crossing an EBT with an APBT might produce offspring with reduced inherent athleticism of the Pitbull, thereby reducing stamina. Dogs having a lot of heart from such a crossing though is something that cannot be dismissed off the cuff so readily.
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THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER IS THE DOG OF OLD AGE. HE WAS BRED LONG BEFORE THE USA WAS CREATED, HE IS THE ORIGINAL BULLDOG. THE PIT BULL TERRIER A BULLDOG THE IS OF MANY BULLDOG VARIATION( BASICLY BULLDOG/ GAME TERRIER CROSS, BULLDOG/ IRISH BULLDOG CROSS, AND BULLDOG/ KILLER HOUND CROSS) DOGS LIKE LABS ARE NOT ONE OF THE BREEDS USED BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE KILLER OR PREY DRIVE THAT THE ANCIENT KILLER HOUND FAMILY OF DOGS. WHEN I SAY KILLER HOUNDS I MEAN THE HOUNDS THAT WERE USED TO CREATE DOGS LIKE THE ORIGINAL GERMANY BOAR HOUND AND OLD POINTER OF THE OLD WORLD. THOSE DOG WERE BIG GAME HUNTER OF BOAR AND PREDATORS, JUST LOOK THE OLD PICTURES, PAINTING, AND STATUES. AS FAR COLORS GO THEY THE RED AND CHOCOLATE COLORS FROM THE IRISH BULLDOG, BLACK N TAN FROM THE BLACK N TAN TERRIER, BLUE FROM SCOTTISH POLL. AND BULL TERRIER GENETICS STEM FROM THE ORIGIN PIT DOGS AND THE PIT BULL TERRIER IS THE ORIGINAL PIT DOG AND THE SPORTING LINE OF BULL TERRIER IS JUST A DIFFERENT STRAIN OF THE PIT BULL TERRIER BUT THE SHOW BULL TERRIER IS JUST WHAT IT IS.......
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[quote=Apostleknls]THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER IS THE DOG OF OLD AGE. HE WAS BRED LONG BEFORE THE USA WAS CREATED, HE IS THE ORIGINAL BULLDOG.[/quote]So, I guess the original Bulldogs never existed and the American Pit Bull Terrier got its name even before "America" was discovered (I just could not write created in this context). Quick question - Which is the older breed A> American Bulldog or B> American Pit Bull Terrier?
Gary
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If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. I owned a dog I would call game and he had no APBT or AB blood in him that I could see. He was a terrier mix mutt of about 50 to 60 lbs, wiry haired, with a natural mohawk, and unsocial and violent as can be with other dogs, except for females. He was a free ranging dog, we lived out in the country growing up, and he was scarred in every way imaginable. Lost teeth, shredded ears, multiple scars that we had to sew up, his neck had been ravaged countless times but he lived and got patched up. I heard him fighting, because I couldn't get him to break it off, for over 2 hours one night with multiple dogs during heat season when I was a kid. He literally fought till he could not stand at all and just laid in a creek cooling off. He came home hours later when he had the strength. He got whipped all the time but other dogs who had more sense retreated from him rather than continuing the fight as they saw no purpose in it and I believe thought him crazy and was afraid of him. He never gave up under any circumstances. When I look back on him, even though I loved him, I see no value in owning such an animal. They bring nothing to the table, serve no purpose, and are more of a liability than anything. Luckily he was completely non-aggressive and friendly with any and all strangers.
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Oh and yes I do appreciate Bulldogs of all stripes. I have owned and raised them and like them but my tastes are changing more towards Mastiff's as time goes on.
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The american bulldog is not as old as breed as the pit bull terrier, the american bulldog is a cross of the old english bulldog, the southern white and large catchdog lines of pit bull. Some lines american bulldogs have even have catahoula infused into bloodline. People put all lies about dogs history online and in books I personal think must of it are fake as flying gremlins. As for the GAMENESS is a trait and quality that can be found in dogs like patterdale terriers, jagdterriers, and pit bull terriers( pit dog family). A die hard element, to never give up no matter may be the out come. The pit bull terrier should be the correct name for the american pit bull terrier. The breed was created in England blackcountry, Scotland, and Ireland. I think the reason it is called american because we perfected the breed. Another thinking about the pit bull terrier history it has the bulldogs in blood from several countries such as ENGLAND, IRELAND, AND SPAIN that why I consider the breed as bulldog of bulldog variations and not just a bull-n- terrier breed. The pit dogs were bred long before 1835 as history as mislead us to believe.
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Actually now that I think about it that dog was very fit from chasing me around on my bike every day of his life and couldn't ever have been over 50lbs, probably more like 40 lbs.
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Redneck, Gameness comes from TERRIER blood, not bulldog blood. That is why your dog had that fire in his belly like you described.
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redneksamurai wrote: [blockquote]If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. [/blockquote] As this topic was raised as to what we thought about crossing an EBT/APBT would “bring to the table”, athleticism and gameness were bound to be the obvious denominators on this discussion. It has nothing to do with whether anyone has or intends to put those traits to the test, but merely a theoretical debate. So, I’m interested, what does the consensus agree on here? Personally, I believe that if you want a tough looking dog to impress the town folk and say “hey, I’ve got an EBT/APBT cross, don’t he look mean?” by all means, go ahead, breed such a cross, all power to ya’!. However, if you want a dog who’s likely to have the athleticism and potential as a good Pitbull, and don’t mind having your mates say “ nothing too inspiring about that skinny dog” then stick with what everyone knows is the best bet. Just my opinion, Denno.
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[quote="Denno"]redneksamurai wrote: [blockquote]If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. [/blockquote] As this topic was raised as to what we thought about crossing an EBT/APBT would “bring to the table”, athleticism and gameness were bound to be the obvious denominators on this discussion. It has nothing to do with whether anyone has or intends to put those traits to the test, but merely a theoretical debate. So, I’m interested, what does the consensus agree on here? Personally, I believe that if you want a tough looking dog to impress the town folk and say “hey, I’ve got an EBT/APBT cross, don’t he look mean?” by all means, go ahead, breed such a cross, all power to ya’!. However, if you want a dog who’s likely to have the athleticism and potential as a good Pitbull, and don’t mind having your mates say “ nothing too inspiring about that skinny dog” then stick with what everyone knows is the best bet. Just my opinion, Denno.[/quote] With all due respect, The cross makes sense for other reasons. For example, a more athletic and healthier EBT must be a pleasure to own. I'm saying this because the EBT has interested me a lot lately, and I wouldn't mind a less "typey" example.
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a ebt wouldnt really be a ebt if it was crossed into apbt,but i agree with that much,it would make for a better bull terrier. And while asking this same question on a game dog board,i was told of a ch dog,[registered ch with the 'sdj]' named "stormer" who was part staffy bull terrier and half ebt,He defeated the famous pyscho dog[irish staff].so thats as close as i could come to a legitimate version of a modern game apbt/ebt,but actually he was a staffyx ebt.heres a link to his story as well as psycho's. http://www.game-bred.com/game-bred-hall-of-fame.htm
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[quote=redneksamurai]If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. [/quote]Gamnes and dog agression are to diffrent traits,totaly unrelated,although most times a game dog is also dog aggresive,some are not,you can have a game dog that is just cold,and of course a dog aggresive animal that lacks gameness.Either way,other than in the pit,im not too sure of its [gameness]practical purpose's either. And seeing as how it must be tested for,you'd have to figure that you could own a game dog it's whole life and not know it,if it was never put in the position to show itself as being "game".
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[quote="KeItH"]a ebt wouldnt really be a ebt if it was crossed into apbt,but i agree with that much,it would make for a better bull terrier. And while asking this same question on a game dog board,i was told of a ch dog,[registered ch with the 'sdj]' named "stormer" who was part staffy bull terrier and half ebt,He defeated the famous pyscho dog[irish staff].so thats as close as i could come to a legitimate version of a modern game apbt/ebt,but actually he was a staffyx ebt.heres a link to his story as well as psycho's. http://www.game-bred.com/game-bred-hall-of-fame.htm[/quote] yeah and a damn good match dog he was too. But that's all he was good for and he is long gone. By the way his dam (EBT) was a total cur that jumped the pit. So who knows why she was bred too lol And no he wouldn't be an American pit bull terrier or an English bull terrier. He would be a battle cross pit dog. By the way that is part my web site. It is about all "game" animals. Wolf Your info about EBT's was good, however i keep very small Ebt's that may be classed as miniature at around 20-25 pounds fit and I work them. (but yes most people don't work them) There seems to be far too much pride in the different breeds of dogs when it comes to pit fighting. For me personally if they fight well, I just call them all pit dogs and don't care about the prefixes. Personally I like terrier type dogs with a bit of bull breed in them (each to their own). By the way my own real experiences with pure EBT's is that they have on average a mouth that is second to none and better on average than any APBT I have come across (in my experience but I never was fortunate enough to "meet" a dog like Adam's zebo). However most of the EBT's in my experience lack wind (not farts lol) ie endurance. Fast lane APBT's are generally light years ahead in that department. Oh yeah and if you guys want to read about an EBT / pit that was the best fighting dog on the American East coast then read up a bout Frisco Sport. He was a very very impressive dog. I have the stats on the site www.game-bred.com
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[quote=Apostleknls]THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER IS THE DOG OF OLD AGE. HE WAS BRED LONG BEFORE THE USA WAS CREATED, HE IS THE ORIGINAL BULLDOG. THE PIT BULL TERRIER A BULLDOG THE IS OF MANY BULLDOG VARIATION( BASICLY BULLDOG/ GAME TERRIER CROSS, BULLDOG/ IRISH BULLDOG CROSS, AND BULLDOG/ KILLER HOUND CROSS) DOGS LIKE LABS ARE NOT ONE OF THE BREEDS USED BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE KILLER OR PREY DRIVE THAT THE ANCIENT KILLER HOUND FAMILY OF DOGS. WHEN I SAY KILLER HOUNDS I MEAN THE HOUNDS THAT WERE USED TO CREATE DOGS LIKE THE ORIGINAL GERMANY BOAR HOUND AND OLD POINTER OF THE OLD WORLD. THOSE DOG WERE BIG GAME HUNTER OF BOAR AND PREDATORS, JUST LOOK THE OLD PICTURES, PAINTING, AND STATUES. AS FAR COLORS GO THEY THE RED AND CHOCOLATE COLORS FROM THE IRISH BULLDOG, BLACK N TAN FROM THE BLACK N TAN TERRIER, BLUE FROM SCOTTISH POLL. AND BULL TERRIER GENETICS STEM FROM THE ORIGIN PIT DOGS AND THE PIT BULL TERRIER IS THE ORIGINAL PIT DOG AND THE SPORTING LINE OF BULL TERRIER IS JUST A DIFFERENT STRAIN OF THE PIT BULL TERRIER BUT THE SHOW BULL TERRIER IS JUST WHAT IT IS.......[/quote] Besides, if you're going to yell about something, you might as well be right about it.
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I think it was stormers sire adam that jumped pit. his dam, the old bull bitch was a badger dog. could be wrong its been some years. there have been some fairly game lines of EBT bout 20 or so years ago in irland. there is a guy who breeds a half decent EBT in wales still.
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[quote=rich10]I think it was stormers sire adam that jumped pit. his dam, the old bull bitch was a badger dog. could be wrong its been some years. there have been some fairly game lines of EBT bout 20 or so years ago in irland. there is a guy who breeds a half decent EBT in wales still.[/quote] lets not forget that half decent by the average Joe's standards is more than half decent :wink: Ok not sure, I thought it was the dam but you are probably right. I was told it was the dam by a guy that knew the guy who handled him in the pit. So my info was second hand and I could of heard wrong.
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[quote=redneksamurai]If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. I owned a dog I would call game and he had no APBT or AB blood in him that I could see. He was a terrier mix mutt of about 50 to 60 lbs, wiry haired, with a natural mohawk, and unsocial and violent as can be with other dogs, except for females. He was a free ranging dog, we lived out in the country growing up, and he was scarred in every way imaginable. Lost teeth, shredded ears, multiple scars that we had to sew up, his neck had been ravaged countless times but he lived and got patched up. I heard him fighting, because I couldn't get him to break it off, for over 2 hours one night with multiple dogs during heat season when I was a kid. He literally fought till he could not stand at all and just laid in a creek cooling off. He came home hours later when he had the strength. He got whipped all the time but other dogs who had more sense retreated from him rather than continuing the fight as they saw no purpose in it and I believe thought him crazy and was afraid of him. He never gave up under any circumstances. When I look back on him, even though I loved him, I see no value in owning such an animal. They bring nothing to the table, serve no purpose, and are more of a liability than anything. Luckily he was completely non-aggressive and friendly with any and all strangers.[/quote]Yep he sure sounds crazy all right! 8O My pit bull BoBo was the same way; he hated all male dogs and loved all humans and female dogs, but he was an inside dog. He never had a doghouse outside. He would go in the back yard for his bathroom, and would lay out in the sun for a little while if he wanted to, but when he wanted in he would let me know real fast. And if I didn't bring him in he would get VERY destructive. One day I left him out and went to the health club to work out. When I got back he had chewed the armrests off my lawn chairs and bitten through the handles of my lawn mower and other tools. I could never let him off leash because of his dog-aggression. He was in only two fights in his life, both with off-leash dogs and both times had the dog on the ground before I could intervene. One was a Chow, the other one was a Rottweiler. Luckily I had made a "break stick" in my garage so I was able to pry his jaws apart before he killed the dogs. He stood 28" at the shoulders and weighed 110lbs so not many dogs chose to challenge him on our walks. He loved riding in the back of my truck but he hardly ever barked. He died last December of cancer at age 14. He was my best friend and I loved him very much. :cry: :cry:
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[quote=KeItH"][quote="redneksamurai]If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. [/quote]Gamnes and dog agression are to diffrent traits,totaly unrelated,although most times a game dog is also dog aggresive,some are not,you can have a game dog that is just cold,and of course a dog aggresive animal that lacks gameness.Either way,other than in the pit,im not too sure of its [gameness]practical purpose's either. And seeing as how it must be tested for,you'd have to figure that you could own a game dog it's whole life and not know it,if it was never put in the position to show itself as being "game".[/quote] Yeah that is a good answer. I am also pleased that someone has noted about the difficulty in testing for "gameness" if you are not a dog fighter. I get sick of all these housewife pit bull owners saying that their dog is "game" because it is determined at weight pulling or other tasks. There is no way to test "gameness" except by battle in the pit or maybe to a lesser extent against badgers etc. When a dog has a broken leg in the pit and is still crawling across the ring at its opponent then you probably have a "game" dog. Anyway what is it good for ? Well first I'll tell you why "dog fighters" like it. The last thing a dog fighter wants to be constantly worrying in the pit is if his dog will suddenly quit. A lot of money and pride is riding on a dog. A fantastic dog of great ability, who can fight well with a fantastic mouth speed etc etc etc would be a real worry to a dog fighter if it was not deep game. Because if he ever came up against another dog that could weather the original storm then the great fighting dog of great ability would quit. Then all the other things don't matter anymore because the dog doesn't want to fight. Even though he could still win and eat the other dog for breakfast he just won't do it. He doesn't want it, can't can't mentally carry on. Game is the basic requirement of a dog that fights under Cajun rules. Without it the dog is too unpredictable because it could quit EVEN WHEN WINNING. Weight pulling and other such activities DO NOT CUT IT, THAT IS NOT A GAME TEST. Now what is it good for outside the ring ? Well not much. I get sick of hearing about all these people claiming their dog is "game bred" this and that. It has a certificate for "gameness" in pulling etc etc. Give me a break, "gameness" is a word for TRUE dog fighting and that does not include park scrapping and wanting to get at other dogs. Toy dogs do that! Yeah so outside dog fighting or badger baiting etc I wish people would just quit using the word it really demeans it. However freedom of speech and all that up to other people what they say just my two cents! (next people will be getting fighting roosters to pull weights and then say they sell "game" fighting roosters lol)
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[quote=DoggyDaddy]My pit bull BoBo was the same way. He stood 28" at the shoulders and weighed 110lbs so not many dogs chose to challenge him on our walks. He loved riding in the back of my truck but he hardly ever barked. He died last December of cancer at age 14. He was my best friend and I loved him very much. :cry: :cry:[/quote]bobo sounds like a good dog,however he does not sound like a apbt if he was that large,maybe pit/mastiff..
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i consider an ab, apbt, presa or any bulldog that hunts boar and doesnt cur and those that have died fighting rank boar, gutted and still fighting etc etc...another form of determining gameness besides dog vs dog...
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[quote=sodapop1124]i consider an ab, apbt, presa or any bulldog that hunts boar and doesnt cur and those that have died fighting rank boar, gutted and still fighting etc etc...another form of determining gameness besides dog vs dog...[/quote] ANOTHER FORM YES EXACTLY. Cairn terriers used to be very GAME TO BADGERS. Important to say "game" for what. However most people when buying a pit bull will think of "game" in the sense of "dog fighting". So when pit bull dogs are advertised as having a merit of gameness because they can pull weights it kind of makes me feel nauseous. Pit bulls were meant as game dogs not body builders or weight lifting champions. That is why so many have ended up with barrel chests and no gas in the tank. However gameness in fighting roosters and fighting dogs is truly on another level. This is mainly due to the massive selection and culling that goes on with fighting dogs as opposed to hunting dogs where it happens on a smaller and less brutal scale. Also excessive gameness is not a great trait in a hunting dog. After all you are not baiting and fighting the hog you are hunting it right ! JMHO
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[blockquote]After all you are not baiting and fighting the hog you are hunting it right ![/blockquote] i understand and agree with ya on the misuse of game/gamebred etc and other points...but when "catchdogs" are released and sent into a bay, the fights on...and many times fight to thier death with boars...its commen...especially without cut gear but even with it on...what else would you call it other than fighting the boar??...boars are one of the toughest critters a dog can be up against...blades in thier mouth...tough as a bull, one of the sh!ttiest attitudes etc...dunno...to me thats a helluva test for heart and gameness in an actual fighting of game sense...bulldogs that cur on a boar get fed to the roses... just curious what would it mean if a gamebred faught dog was put on a boar and cured??...what would that say about heart and/or its gameness??
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[quote="sodapop1124"][blockquote]After all you are not baiting and fighting the hog you are hunting it right ![/blockquote] i understand and agree with ya on the misuse of game/gamebred etc and other points...but when "catchdogs" are released and sent into a bay, the fights on...and many times fight to thier death with boars...its commen...especially without cut gear but even with it on...what else would you call it other than fighting the boar??...boars are one of the toughest critters a dog can be up against...blades in thier mouth...tough as a bull, one of the sh!ttiest attitudes etc...dunno...to me thats a helluva test for heart and gameness in an actual fighting of game sense...bulldogs that cur on a boar get fed to the roses... just curious what would it mean if a gamebred faught dog was put on a boar and cured??...what would that say about heart and/or its gameness??[/quote] You could be right I don't have enough experience with hog dogs. The term was used for Bulldogs in the 18th and 19th century in England for fighting with other animals such as bulls, bears etc etc so yeah maybe you are right. Just don't like the word being so liberally used these days to include almost anything but you agree with me on that anyway. And on your last point about "game dogs" (fighting ones) curring on boar. yeah that could happen. A lot of badger dogs cur out against other dogs and some game dogs that are game against other dogs cur out in badger trials.
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[quote=rooster] And on your last point about "game dogs" (fighting ones) curring on boar. yeah that could happen. A lot of badger dogs cur out against other dogs and some game dogs that are game against other dogs cur out in badger trials.[/quote]This could also be said of a good catch dog of a diffrent breed other than a bull and terrier[apbt]. just because a dogo loses its life against a hog dosent mean the dog wouldnt be a cur in a diffrent arena,so im not so sure hog hunting test true gameness,It seems to me a dog with a tremendous amount of heart and prey drive would be all it takes for a hunting dog to lose its life,again im not sure if it equates gameness,im sure theres alot of diffrent opinions on this also.It has to be added that a catch dog probably dosent do battle with the boar for upwords to a hour or more,so it dosent really seem to be a relevant way to gauge gameness ,jmo..
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hi rooster yes adam was stopped and was not a good dog. i had heard his dam was a good/game badger dog but was cold on dog (i may be wrong, this is second hand lol). Have also heard different accounts of stormer over the years by people who knew the dog well. again, unless it was seen by our own eyes who knows. i am unaware of anything that ever came off him. i had 2 very good irish bitchs many years ago, one a double bred jocko (30 fit) the other through flynn lines (27). Now i'm a family man with a big lazy bulldog, but it still brings a smile to my face when i think back to what a real stafford was like, not sure you can still get them like that. liked your website
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[quote=rich10]hi rooster yes adam was stopped and was not a good dog. i had heard his dam was a good/game badger dog but was cold on dog (i may be wrong, this is second hand lol). Have also heard different accounts of stormer over the years by people who knew the dog well. again, unless it was seen by our own eyes who knows. i am unaware of anything that ever came off him. i had 2 very good irish bitchs many years ago, one a double bred jocko (30 fit) the other through flynn lines (27). Now i'm a family man with a big lazy bulldog, but it still brings a smile to my face when i think back to what a real stafford was like, not sure you can still get them like that. liked your website[/quote] Thanks I appreciate the comment about the website. This is what I heard about stormer. Form a man that knew the man (lol) who handled him in the pit. (I'm sure you know the guy who handled him and I don't want to mention is name online). Apparently Stormer although being a good dog in his own right was also a legend and so successful in the pit because of the rapport he had with his handler. He could on command turn down the gas and almost stop fighting when required and could be commanded to step it up when required. It was said that the guy that handled him really understood and could almost talk to the dog. Kind of similar to a dog whisperer. Whether that is a part of the Stormer legend or truth I don't know. Or maybe just my friend enjoying the prestige of coming into contact with Stormer in real life. Not taking anything away from the dog just pointing out that he was owned and handled by very capable people, I'm sure that helped a lot. I also heard that after he was retired, old and hog fat, he chewed through metal mesh to get at an active game bred Reid APBT in the next kennel. Got through and killed the dog. Anyway thanks for the kind words on the website. It's not perfect and there are some inaccuracies no doubt. But I did the web site both for pleasure and to give some information other than the same old stuff about Chinaman and Zebo that most web sites constantly mention (not surprisingly). As for wondering if there are any Irish Staffs or ebt's around now that are as good as they were back then. Well just rest assured that the dogs back then although long in the ground are becoming more and more famous and not less so. I guess the old saying"don't know what you have until you have lost it' applies in this case.
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guess what DAREZ.some people are still living in the past. i guess(hope not) you offended some people out there. you better keep it silence. it is not the right forum( i do not know, BUT I WILL DIE FOR MY TERRIERS FOR SURE.)let us meet at rooster. HOPE I WILL NOT BE BAN FOR CONTRIBUTING. :roll:
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[blockquote]some told me hog hunt ain't enough from what i heard theres only 1 way, Pain[/blockquote] and theres no pain with catching boar??...i guess those slashed up faces, legs, puncture wounds from cutters...guts being pushed back in and sewn/stapled up...dogs getting knocked clean out...no pain in that??...if you look at bulldogs of any breed...that has lived a fair amount of time and rountinely catches...you'll see the countless battle scars like anything... not saying its across the board equal comparison...but i think some under estimate it as well...
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[quote=sodapop1124] and theres no pain with catching boar??...i guess those slashed up faces, legs, puncture wounds from cutters...guts being pushed back in and sewn/stapled up...dogs getting knocked clean out...no pain in that??...if you look at bulldogs of any breed...that has lived a fair amount of time and rountinely catches...you'll see the countless battle scars like anything... not saying its across the board equal comparison...but i think some under estimate it as well...[/quote]Its hard to talk about the crossing of fighting dogs with those that are decended from fighting dogs and not inevetably mention fighting and gameness and what will be lost by the cross and what would be to gain, i'm not sure the op's original question wasnt concerning mearly a pet dog so i wouldnt get to offended by it "Troy". As for boar hunting testing the gameness of a catch dog,theres no way,the battle dosent go on long enough for the dog to truely get tested or to run out of gas and see if its still gonna go,the dog is killed or the boar is killed before any testing can go on
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[quote=KeItH"][quote="DoggyDaddy]My pit bull BoBo was the same way. He stood 28" at the shoulders and weighed 110lbs so not many dogs chose to challenge him on our walks. He loved riding in the back of my truck but he hardly ever barked. He died last December of cancer at age 14. He was my best friend and I loved him very much. :cry: :cry:[/quote]bobo sounds like a good dog,however he does not sound like a apbt if he was that large,maybe pit/mastiff..[/quote]He was my son's dog for ten years. He gave him to me when he had to go away for awhile. He always said that BoBo's parents were really big. He probly did have some Mastiff in him because pits just don't get that size all of a sudden for no reason. BoBo made a lot of people scared when they first met him, but all he ever did was sniff around for a few seconds then look up at them. If they didn't pet him he would step closer and just stare at them with his long tail whipping back and forth(that tail was a force unto itself lol) until they stroked him. It was neat seeing people just melt when they looked into his eyes. :D
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[quote=troy]guess what DAREZ.some people are still living in the past. i guess(hope not) you offended some people out there. you better keep it silence. it is not the right forum( i do not know, BUT I WILL DIE FOR MY TERRIERS FOR SURE.)let us meet at rooster. HOPE I WILL NOT BE BAN FOR CONTRIBUTING. :roll:[/quote] Yes I'll gladly meet you if that is what you were asking ?
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i am already a member of your great site. some dogs were bred (or created) for a purpose.like it or not, that is what they are good at. so be it. :oops: NOBODY CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM THEM. :wink:
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[quote=troy]i am already a member of your great site. some dogs were bred (or created) for a purpose.like it or not, that is what they are good at. so be it. :oops: NOBODY CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM THEM. :wink:[/quote] Thanks (delayed as couldn't get into the site for a few days)
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Gameness and dog aggression are not one and the same. There are a lot of dogs that are very dog aggressive (rank drive), but show no gameness. Then there are also some game dogs that believe it or not are not dog aggressive until they need to be.
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[quote=badams] About the only pure white breed of dog that comes to mind that doesnt have inherent health issues is a Samoyed. .[/quote] My dogos are all white and all healthy! :P
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[blockquote]The APBT dog men, the serious guys ACCEPT the fact that Game bred, tightly LINE bred dogs are skittish and shy creatures, useful for 1 thing, and 1 thing only, and you can imagine what that is... That is perfection?? A dog who will fight all day long, but is also afraid of the leaves rustling on the ground[/blockquote] None of the ones I dealt with were.
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[quote=KeItH] As for boar hunting testing the gameness of a catch dog,theres no way,the battle dosent go on long enough for the dog to truely get tested or to run out of gas and see if its still gonna go,the dog is killed or the boar is killed before any testing can go on[/quote] Ask the hog hunters that hit a nest and one dog breaks for his own hog and stays caught until the hunters find him al by itself! There are hog dogs that stayed caught and when the hog was finaly subdued the dog went into hypervolemic shock and died. You can call it what you want but I say that is dead game.
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In of the previous posts I'm not sure why someone would say there is no purpose for a game dog. The qualities that took hundreds of years to build are qualities that can't be replaced anytime soon if lost. It's not just a matter of fighting characteristics it's the loyalty honor and courage of the dog that can not be replicated. Nor can the endurance, agility, tenacity or strength. That is why those that choose to have a breeding program they choose the pit bull as a vital part of having a successful breeding program.
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[quote=Dragonmark] Ask the hog hunters that hit a nest and one dog breaks for his own hog and stays caught until the hunters find him al by itself! There are hog dogs that stayed caught and when the hog was finaly subdued the dog went into hypervolemic shock and died. You can call it what you want but I say that is dead game.[/quote] Your right, that's why I'd rather bring my pit.
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You underestimate the people that post here wolf. I am sure the vast majority have no first hand knowledge of game dogs but on the other hand some of us may have been a handler at a few real matches. Some of us may have helped a dog man with his prospects in keeps. Some of us have laid hands on more noble beasts than some wannabes wil ever se in their lives. Maybe a guy here has been from RI to NC and has been around many a game dog...Boudreaux, Colby, Jeep, and yes even some scatter bred Aces. That person has not seen those quivering animals you speak of. Anyway some things you know more than I...there is no doubt about that, however you don't know what someone has been around to make general statements. I may have ben around the block a little bit. :twisted:
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[quote="Wolf"]Gameness without physical ability is useless. Gameness without intelligence is useless. Gameness without courage is useless. Game Pits lacking ability, brains and courage are useless even in the box. [/quote] Part of "gameness" is physical ability, intelligence and courage. You can't have a game dog that is missing any of the characteristics that you mention. I don't know why you do not consider gameness and courage as synomonous. It is synomonous. There are the useful game bred dogs being used in other activities other than fighting. Game dogs have been more than successful in PP, pulling contests, even contrary to what most believe as a guard dog. Save me the "dog handlers couldn't be bitten in the ring so a game dog won't bite a human which won't make it a good guardian" I've heard it before. It's a fable. If you form a bond with your pit they will protect you when the scenario arises. Back to the useful of gameness...game dogs will also create vigor when used in another breeding program that needs an outcross, or needs a specific characteristic of the pit such as agility, endurance, or tenacity. wolf- "Most of the highly inbred top game bloodlines regularly produce skittish, jumpy and borderline retarded dogs. Fact." Yeah right. :roll: Thats why colby's dogs have produced some of the best game bred line dogs the world has seen for over a hundred years, some fighting in matches for over 3 hours in duration. These dogs until today are the most renown dogs in the world. If you want one you have to fork over a lot on money and get in line because there are many on the waiting list! :)
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Wow really what is the big deal? I grew up around dog fighters in Appalachia that bred, fought, and gambled on a constant basis, dogs and roosters. It was done legally forever in Blackberry, KY and still goes on in different areas, towns, and hollers. I used to watch this crap when I was a kid and was and still am appalled by it all. In my estimation these people were and are under-educated, ne'er do well, drug doing, welfare recipients. Why in the world would anyone look at these people as "Respectable Dogmen" and why would anyone want trash bred off of these morons? And yes these are people descended from old time dogmen, trash breeding trash who breed trash dogs and have been doing it as "Family Oriented" fun for a few generations. To me this is what is meant by old time dogmen and dog fighters. And Wolf summed it up pretty correctly, game bred pits are useless curs who cant do anything but fight another dog and do piss and sh!t themselves when any new stimuluss is introduced. They are nervy and trash much like their owner and breeders. My 2 cents.
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well, well, well. here we go again. nice try my friend. next time pick a nuclear bomb(american way of life) instead of our own poor little african figure. 8O NICE TRY BUT NOT EVEN A SMOKE :) be cool :lol:
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wolf, rednecksamuri, We don't expect you to understand about pit bulls. Stick to the chihuahas, toy poodles and pugs and let us guys get back to talking about real dogs. :lol:
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Wow.... Such ignorance being projected as intelligence... :roll: ABBB, Maybe you should stick to those AlapaHAHAHA blue blood, blue eyed, curly tailed mongrel bulldogs. It seems, no matter how many times ANYONE, from ANYWHERE in this world says something different concerning the APBT or EBT, the usual ""stick to chihuahua's and poodle's, let the real men talk about real dogs"" nonsense comes up. Grow the fuck up already. It is an outrageously pathetic attempt at an insult. Although, it does prove your education, to be so un-willing to acknowledge, let alone accept, a different theory than the popular one, proves to atleast me, that you all might have tons of book knowledge, but very limited ""street"" sense. Hell, if we stuck with those notions, we'd all be speaking the Kings English from 700 yrs ago. Thank God we don't. Remember, there is always 3 sides to every story, The popular, the un-popular, and the real one. Wolf, Rednek and to anyone else... It is useless to try and talk to or educate people who won't listen due to the fact that they MUST out do you. I mean think about it, to be the one who disproves the almighty AL WOLF!!! OH MY GOD, it should send shivers down a normal human's spine. LOLOL. It is a waste of time, and I don't see the point in why any of us would try to continuously try to educate the Strattonites or the Semencicaphiles. At the end of the day, those who have been around real deal APBT, and are honest, will always know the difference between horse manure and shoe polish. I mean, even the strattonites have read, IN HIS OWN WORDS, about his and his colleagues dog Spike. They bought him and raised him as a Catch dog. But he had to be hunted ALONE, because his GAME dog breeding made him dangerous to the baying dogs. HMMMMM, how good is 1 dog against a 600 lbs boar?? LOL. WAKE UP PEOPLE
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Asshat!...lol Look I am a semi Strattonite. I like his books and believe much of what he wrote. However I know that there are some documents that show there was much bull and terrier mixing. I just happen to think breeders bred toward the bull side more than the terrier side. Redneck you don't know what you are talking about at this juncture so you might want to skip this topic. You would not know a gladiator if you saw one. To call pit dogs currs shows you have no clue what that word even means. You are not a fan of Game testing...thats cool, don't assume that real dog men are toothless halfwits. Dog men started pedigrees line breeding and inbreeding. Every breeder in the world benefitted from there work. Westminster dog show would be nothing had it not been for REAL DOG MEN. I am not a dog fighter nor do I suggest people should fight dogs anymore. But I have been around it many years and can say that there are some amazing things to learn from the old school.
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Well Dragonmark you might be right and I am fine with not knowing more than I do about fighting dogs and the people that partake of that. I was not impressed with the caliber of people I know that participate in these ventures nor was I impressed with a dog who has but one function and not good for many others. Maybe because I am not a dog fighter and disagree with them is the reason I dont "Get It". Dogs like that just don't have a place in a moral and modern society anymore. They can't even act as man intended them in the first place as hunters and guardians. That being said I can and do admire Bully breeds and have owned and worked Bullies in the past. I don't anymore and probably wont own one in the future, as I get tired of that focused dog aggression and constant bans in every city I seem to live in. Im trying to branch out into other things and breeds with dogs, learning as I go. And I doubt there is much I would want to know from a dogfighter. Regardless I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours and this is the perfect place to put my opinion to work, a damn dog forum. :P
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It is painfuly obvious you intend to keep your opinion regardless of how uninformed it may be. But let me just say that not all game dogs are dog aggressive and not all dog aggressive dogs are game. Anyway the progeny that have their ancestry in gladiator dogs have branched out to many other jobs and are very useful to society. A catchdog, a guard dog, police dogs....etc. So you and Wolf can further promote the idea of fighting dogs being shivering cowards but I know from first hand knowledge that the vast majority are well rounded happy ...hard charging dogs. The picture of health and a superb family dog. I have rescued MANY fighters and placed them in experienced hands that retired them and made the families very happy. So to each his own, but in this you are mis-informed.
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Fair enough I guess, I will take the advice and leave this topic to those of you that have more experience than I. My experience is limited but probably more than the average joe. There are certainly better dogs for hunting and guarding that I would choose over a Pit. And I still think fighters are reprehensible and anyone that romanticises what they do and have achieved I see as misinformed or lacking in moral judgement. I bow out as gracefully as I can from this topic but I will still lurk and learn :P
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Peace Red. Wolf if the dogs were that heavily inbred to the point of being weird like that why not breed to an out side line with similar ancestry? I never bred my own game dogs I only assisted an old school dog man.
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Game Pits lacking ability, brains and courage are useless even in the box. AL WOLF A MESSAGE TO YOU DOGS WITH ABILITY,BRAINS AND COURAGE BUT NO GAMENESS ARE NOT USLESS IN THE BOX BUT SHOULDNT EXIT.THERE JUST BULLIES THAT PICK ON OTHERS UNTILL ITS THERE TURN TO BE PICKED ON AND WHEN THE GOING GETS TUFF THE SO CALLED TUFF PUT THERE TAIL BETWEEN THERE LEGS AND GET RUNNING LIKE OLIMPIC RUNNERS WHATS COURAGE WITHOUT GAMENESS. WOLF DOGMEN HAVE BREEDING GAMENESS LOGER THAN OVER 95% OF DOGS ON THIS SITE YOU SHOULDNT PUT THEM DOWN PLEASE
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Wolf, and whoever else wants to chime in, do you agree or not that if trying to produce game dogs it is preferable to cross game proven APBT’s rather than cross with Bull Terriers as being the safest bet of succeeding in your quest? If one knew the Bull Terrier perhaps I could understand…but on the whole - what is your opinion?
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Al, thank you for your most eloquent response. There will be no argument from this quarter. I need to ask direct questions from time to time. Regards, Denno.
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What is this nonsense about the APBT being the ONLY breed of dog with gameness?? In the old standard for the CO, LACK OF GAMENESS WAS A FAULT. Are you forgetting about the GAME terriers?? And I don't care what anyone says, a dog who will latch onto a hog, even though he has been split wide open by that same hog, is a GAME dog. It is time to stop thumping the APBT IS THE ONLY GAME ANIMAL AND CAN LEAP BUILDINGS AND FIX YOUR TRUCK chest already.
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bgbob, It’s the individual dog rather than the breed. Some of the most unlikely breeds produce game dogs, the potential is always there. Gameness is a very elusive quality. APBT’s seem to have the highest percentage of game individual’s. In my opinion, using a bloodline with the highest percentage improves the odds.
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I deleted the last three post and openned the forum. I have not looked through it all yet. Wolf - DO NOT call our members idiots. We have disucssed this before.
Gary
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Wolf wrote, [blockquote]It wasn't until I did something else that finally gave me improvements I was seeking. [/blockquote] So what did you do?
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He bred muttts by adding bull terrier blood.
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What’s wrong with “adding Bull Terrier blood” if you know the dog?
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Nothing if your honest about it. But If I were looking to buy a pure pit bull I would not want mixed blood.
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[quote=Dragonmark]Nothing if your honest about it. But If I were looking to buy a pure pit bull I would not want mixed blood.[/quote] You seem like an emotionally healthy guy. You could be a real ass after/ some of the replies you've gotten. So understand that I'm saying this with full respect. The beloved Dogo Argentino is the king of all cocktail-breeding. In fact, I'm sure lots of breeds were used in an attampt to create the breed, but my bet is that the dogs which actually formed the breed were quite few. Nevertheless, as a DA fan, you really can't criticize the crossing of APBT's and EBT's. Especially, if the EBT returns pit bulll essense to the pit bull.
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WOOOOOO-------HOOOOOOOO Thank you Redeagle. Someone gets it!
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I always call Dogo's a type of ban dogge. The DA people don't like it but honestly that is what it is. A bit of bull dog..a dash of mastiff, a pinch of bull terrier...you know how that goes.... :wink: Anyway...I think the mixes are great for health and new genetic material...but if I were looking for say a Jeep or Diebo bred dog I wouldn't want it mixed. I would want it line bred or even inbred. As for me being an ass....I am too easy going. I have tried to grow in Grace. 8)
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[quote=Dragonmark]Nothing if your honest about it. But If I were looking to buy a pure pit bull I would not want mixed blood.[/quote]obviously a good post,this thred is a lost cause,A game bred apbt dog can not benifit from adding bull terrier,and if it could it would happen all the time,dogs like stormer were exceptions to the rule and old foundation dogs like frisco were just that,turn of the century stock...
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[blockquote]this thread is a lost cause[/blockquote] The second thing you have said since being back that is right. This thread is a lost cause. Which is sad, since some people were learning from it. I can NOT believe we are still STUCK on the fact that NO-ONE has mentioned foundation stock. It is sad that we still struggle, EVEN WHEN QUOTED FROM BOOKS WITH FAMOUS AUTHORS, people can't understand that back in the day, WHITE dogs were called BENCH bull terriers, and the COLORED dogs, from the SAME LITTER as the white bench dogs, were called the PIT BULL TERRIER. Again, yeah, we will hear about how it was only done at the beginning of last century for foundation stock etc etc etc... But don't be fooled, this ""breed"" is no different than any other ""breed"". Look at GSD, how much have they changed since Von Stephanitz created them? Or how about the Neo, you gonna believe there is no OEM or DDB in there?? Lets not leave out the Rottweiler, the DA, Dutch and Belgian shepherds(who both have APBT AND EBT in them). Do not believe that the APBT has not had infusions CONTINUOUSLY since their inception. It only makes sense. This ""breed"" was made by mixing this with that, adding a dash of something, and put over a biitch of something else(just like ALL other working breeds)... Because, Today, just as it has been since DAY 1, if it will fight well, and won't bite a man, they will give it a shot and cross it with a ""pitbull"". If it works out as a nice cross, it will be bred back to other ""Pitbulls"", and ofcourse, the original person responsible for doing said cross would HATE to lose what pathetic little reputation they did have, so they would deny it as if they were being accused of witchcraft back in the 1700's. If the cross didn't work, it wasn't done again. It is no more difficult than that. But, we have people on this thing we call the internet who like to talk about game bred this, dead game that, non crossed there, Jeep Eli here... and don't know a damn thing about it, other than what JOE BLOW street corner fighter has taught them, or can't think outside the box that Stratton, Semencic and others like them have created. It is quite sad actually. Let's not forget, Stratton and Semencic were NOT around when Mr Colby, Mr Armitage, Mr Glass, The Boston Irish Gang, or any of the old timers who brought with them their BULL AND TERRIERS from Ireland and Scotland. So, how can it make sense in peoples minds to go with what some guy from the 70's and 80's says about these being the original Bulldogs, when the real old timers, men AND women who were there at the beginning, and were advertising their dogs as BULL terriers?? Turn of the century stock?? Ok, if that is the case, and they were only good for that time... Why do people still swear by Jeep and Eli, Chinaman(a goddamned MAN biter)?? It is the same Principle... Because it is GREAT BLOOD. Remember, it is the PAST that has given us what we have today. Why do you think people have NOT been able to re-produce Colby's Pinscher?? Because of the mentality that it is NOT ok to cross dogs, or to add BACK in the blood of an ancestor here and there. Look in Colby's book, in the middle. There is a picture from back in Mr Colby's day, of a professional Wrestler and Weight lifter, who had with him a 90LBS, white male COLBY dog with red marks on his face(who even Mr Colby hinted as being the FOUNDATION for AB breed)... Tell me that he doesn't have outside blood in his veins. How about Plummers Alligator... No outside blood there?? What about the many Black and Tan dogs(which MUST have Black And Tan on both sides in order to show) that Mr. Hammonds produced and still does?? Do you really expect us to believe that dogs who started out with some being as small as 17lbs and big ones being 35lbs, went up to 90lbers and even that 107 lbs white and brindle thing in Semencic's book being the biggest pure bred APBT, in less than 100 yrs, without outside blood?? Or that they went from having very telling terrier styled heads and bodies, to now having heads and bodies that those in the EB community would be jealous of?? You expect us to believe that ALL that has come about with OUT the help of outside blood, which has been infused, due to the old saying of "" If it works, then use it""?? Come on people, you ALL are smarter than that. Mike
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we really cant speculate as to what was added to plummbers alligator,my opin ion,hge was just a large bull and terrier,heavy on the bull blood,its all aligations with no proof either way,all you can say is he was a great dog,rufus wasnt his size so its doubtful in my mind a black and tan coon hound was up in that mix.When i talk game dogs i like to go to the source,what ever he was ,he was a amazing dog,that cant be argued,and still great dogs are being bred off that line,dogs smaller and dogs bigger than alligator,check'texas heat kennel"for good hammonds/plumbers stock,i like the line and believe it to be pure,but to each there own.doutfull a hound could add much to a fighting dog but i could also be wrong,still to this day you can find good plumbers stock 35 pounds and less,great bulldogs no matter how you slice it,and lets get real,calling a apbt a bulldog is a term,it isnt saying the dog is of pure bulldog stock,to think so is some what ignorant wouldnt you agree with that much at least?..... Its been stated through history and just became part of comon lingo nothing more,nothing less...
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Yes... I can not argue with anything you just wrote.... except that the term BULLDOG has gone from just a term to describe them, to now people believe there is no TERRIER in them American Pit Bull TERRIER. People on HERE and elsewhere NOW swear that the APBT is the original Bulldog from england. The same as the boys do with the White English Bulldog crap. If you think I am making this up, read 99% of what member Badams writes. There are many more than just him, too many to name actually. :wink:
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yes,agreed, ya cant argue with history,so let the ignorant stay that way.. Actually diane jessup and stratton have both said terrier was added at on point if im not mistaken,jessup just says those are not the ideal represenetives in her opinion,and im not sure i disagree with her,im not really in need of a fighting dog,i truely enjoy those old staff staiins of tacoma and sorona as well as white rock and ruffian as much as any pure bred game type with the exception of the plumbers/hammonds dogs,then again thats just my opinion.. As for semenic,he's always stated the dogs were terrier crosses,he was right on that front,just wrong on so many others...... Lets get one thing straight,just because i started out reading his stuff dosent mean i swear to it,ya gotta start somewhere ya know...
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[blockquote]Lets get one thing straight,just because i started out reading his stuff dosent mean i swear to it,ya gotta start somewhere ya know... [/blockquote] We all started there man! Im not knocking ANYONE for starting out there, I'd be disapointed if THATs where people end... hence why I go off on certain tangents.
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[quote="Dragonmark"] ...If I were looking to buy a [u]pure pit bull[/u] I would not want [u]mixed blood[/u].[/quote] Ok I know that APBTs have been a "breed" for a good number of decades, but you ARE kidding, right? :lol:
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I suppose your going to tell me that the APBT is not a breed.......... and never really existed right? 8)
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10 to 15lbs of game dog, Patterdale Terrier!
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Would you have people breed pit bull to them too? Different type of game....different type of player.
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Semencic?! I’ve only read one of his books, “The World of Fighting Dogs”. I agree with him at least on one score - about the old Neapolitan Mastiff’s – but that’s another story. I do agree with him about APBT’s as well though. The reason they’re the most prolific dogs in the hemisphere of “game dogs” is because they are! Aren’t they? Are not APBT’s breeding true and registered as a breed in their own right? Who really knows what their exact history was (I think we can dismiss the claim of them being the English Bulldog though) as most of todays breeds are a hotch-potch of interbreeding. Patterdale Terriers? Now there’s a wild card! Were they another crossing waaaay back in the creation of the Pitbull?
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No Dragonmark, Pits are not nor ever will be as good a hunting dog as a Patterdale. That would ruin the Patterdale breed as opposed to the other way around. But I do hear some people breed PitterPats for whatever reason. Regardless its still a game dog :P Who mentioned mixing them anyway, I didn't? And there isn't a different kind of Game, it is what it is. Unless of course you are going to school me again in what dog aggression is and isnt in contrast to game. The thread is spinning circles and making me dizzy! 8O Er unless you meant "Game" as in function, I could have misread that :wink:
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Different game as in different function. But I can not say anything pro or con about Patterdales as I have never seen one.
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You should see some then, they are my favorite Terrier. Patterdales will impress anyone who prize gameness, hunting ability, or just down right gritty and tough dogs. Nice little fellas to people too.
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My mother could use one! Providence is full of large rats, racoons, and possum.
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They can do all of those critters and badger, rabbit, etc. If its a vermin type critter that goes to ground, the Patterdale will fight it to the death and its usually bigger than the Pat! I know a guy that breeds them game out in Kansas and lets them go in barns on farms to clear out raccoon families for people that pay him. He has lost dogs that way from getting their paws chewed off by big nasty coons. The poor little devils still try and kill the coons with missing feet. Horrendous I know, but that tells you how damn tough these guys are. I have a buddy whos AB's get along great with Pat's even though they are the same sex. The Pat's aren't afraid of anything and they aren't particularly dog aggressive, though some individuals are towards the same sex but not common. The AB's which are male on male aggressive I don't think are particularly threatened by these small dogs so kinda ignore them. But still have to be careful as the Pat's aren't afraid and will try and dominate the bigger dogs :)
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[quote=Dragonmark]I suppose your going to tell me that the APBT is not a breed.......... and never really existed right? 8)[/quote]I hope not because he would be dead wrong!!!!!!
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[quote=redneksamurai]You should see some then, they are my favorite Terrier. Patterdales will impress anyone who prize gameness, hunting ability, or just down right gritty and tough dogs. Nice little fellas to people too.[/quote] gotta love the patterdales :twisted: ...they also reak havoc on the nutria down south as well...tenacious lil buggers...
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I don't know much about this particular kennel but I like their style and pics! http://www.linruffkennels.00go.com/photo6.html http://www.linruffkennels.00go.com/photo2_1.html http://www.linruffkennels.00go.com/photo_1.html http://www.linruffkennels.00go.com/custom2.html http://www.linruffkennels.00go.com/photo2.html Bad ass Patts!
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[url=http://members4.boardhost.com/hurricanekennel/index.html?1216189957]Here's a board[/url] for Patterdale Terrier talk, to learn up on the game little terriers. [url=http://xsorbit26.com/users5/traditionalworkingairedaleterrier/index.php]Here's a board[/url] for Working and Hunting Airedale Terriers, and all terriers for that matter. CHeck them out guys! Mike
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[quote="crnosrce1"][url=http://members4.boardhost.com/hurricanekennel/index.html?1216189957]Here's a board[/url] for Patterdale Terrier talk, to learn up on the game little terriers.[/quote] Hurricane Kennels got some really good Pat's. http://www.hurricanekennels.com/
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[quote=Dragonmark]I always call Dogo's a type of ban dogge. The DA people don't like it but honestly that is what it is. A bit of bull dog..a dash of mastiff, a pinch of bull terrier...you know how that goes.... :wink: Anyway...I think the mixes are great for health and new genetic material...but if I were looking for say a Jeep or Diebo bred dog I wouldn't want it mixed. I would want it line bred or even inbred. As for me being an ass....I am too easy going. I have tried to grow in Grace. 8)[/quote] I'm not privy to the details that many of you here are, but what I understand is that no line can continue on ad infinitum. (Eventually, dogs from other lines will be introduced, OR a particular line will disipate through introduction into other lines.) Also, dogmen consider different lines to be as good as different breeds. And, breeding of any dogs, whether relatives w/in the same breed, unrelated dogs of the same breed, or dogs of incredibly diverse/distant heritage, can go bad as easily as it can go well - nevermind the quality of the parents. Therefore, cross-breeding has its place if done properly. [quote=KeItH]obviously a good post,this thred is a lost cause,A game bred apbt dog can not benifit from adding bull terrier,and if it could it would happen all the time,dogs like stormer were exceptions to the rule and old foundation dogs like frisco were just that,turn of the century stock...[/quote] So, I guess adding bulldog to terrier lines produced a breed (to become the APBT) with less gamness and worth? Yopu an't have it both ways, KeItH. I can appreciate the importance of judicilal breeding and the varying walue of different breeds, but your position is so extreme it becomes ironic.
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[quote="crnosrce1"][blockquote]this thread is a lost cause[/blockquote] The second thing you have said since being back that is right. This thread is a lost cause. Which is sad, since some people were learning from it. I can NOT believe we are still STUCK on the fact that NO-ONE has mentioned foundation stock. It is sad that we still struggle, EVEN WHEN QUOTED FROM BOOKS WITH FAMOUS AUTHORS, people can't understand that back in the day, WHITE dogs were called BENCH bull terriers, and the COLORED dogs, from the SAME LITTER as the white bench dogs, were called the PIT BULL TERRIER. Again, yeah, we will hear about how it was only done at the beginning of last century for foundation stock etc etc etc... But don't be fooled, this ""breed"" is no different than any other ""breed"". Look at GSD, how much have they changed since Von Stephanitz created them? Or how about the Neo, you gonna believe there is no OEM or DDB in there?? Lets not leave out the Rottweiler, the DA, Dutch and Belgian shepherds(who both have APBT AND EBT in them). Do not believe that the APBT has not had infusions CONTINUOUSLY since their inception. It only makes sense. This ""breed"" was made by mixing this with that, adding a dash of something, and put over a biitch of something else(just like ALL other working breeds)... Because, Today, just as it has been since DAY 1, if it will fight well, and won't bite a man, they will give it a shot and cross it with a ""pitbull"". If it works out as a nice cross, it will be bred back to other ""Pitbulls"", and ofcourse, the original person responsible for doing said cross would HATE to lose what pathetic little reputation they did have, so they would deny it as if they were being accused of witchcraft back in the 1700's. If the cross didn't work, it wasn't done again. It is no more difficult than that. But, we have people on this thing we call the internet who like to talk about game bred this, dead game that, non crossed there, Jeep Eli here... and don't know a damn thing about it, other than what JOE BLOW street corner fighter has taught them, or can't think outside the box that Stratton, Semencic and others like them have created. It is quite sad actually. Let's not forget, Stratton and Semencic were NOT around when Mr Colby, Mr Armitage, Mr Glass, The Boston Irish Gang, or any of the old timers who brought with them their BULL AND TERRIERS from Ireland and Scotland. So, how can it make sense in peoples minds to go with what some guy from the 70's and 80's says about these being the original Bulldogs, when the real old timers, men AND women who were there at the beginning, and were advertising their dogs as BULL terriers?? Turn of the century stock?? Ok, if that is the case, and they were only good for that time... Why do people still swear by Jeep and Eli, Chinaman(a goddamned MAN biter)?? It is the same Principle... Because it is GREAT BLOOD. Remember, it is the PAST that has given us what we have today. Why do you think people have NOT been able to re-produce Colby's Pinscher?? Because of the mentality that it is NOT ok to cross dogs, or to add BACK in the blood of an ancestor here and there. Look in Colby's book, in the middle. There is a picture from back in Mr Colby's day, of a professional Wrestler and Weight lifter, who had with him a 90LBS, white male COLBY dog with red marks on his face(who even Mr Colby hinted as being the FOUNDATION for AB breed)... Tell me that he doesn't have outside blood in his veins. How about Plummers Alligator... No outside blood there?? What about the many Black and Tan dogs(which MUST have Black And Tan on both sides in order to show) that Mr. Hammonds produced and still does?? Do you really expect us to believe that dogs who started out with some being as small as 17lbs and big ones being 35lbs, went up to 90lbers and even that 107 lbs white and brindle thing in Semencic's book being the biggest pure bred APBT, in less than 100 yrs, without outside blood?? Or that they went from having very telling terrier styled heads and bodies, to now having heads and bodies that those in the EB community would be jealous of?? You expect us to believe that ALL that has come about with OUT the help of outside blood, which has been infused, due to the old saying of "" If it works, then use it""?? Come on people, you ALL are smarter than that. Mike[/quote] 1) You can't tease us w/ that much info. and not expound... what blood did Chinaman, BusterBrown (dog in Semenic's 1984 book), and Gator have in them? And as for the BlackN'Tan markings, don't they come from the BlackN'Tan terrier/Manchester terrier? You and Wolf have talked about Lab and Pointer blood, but even labs and pointers don't get that larger. It would be interesting to know what else was used. 2) Even w/ infusions from other breeds, APBT's are still among the most carefully bred dogs about, correct? They seem to have changed less drastically than most show-breeds, and as discussed in thisthread, they're overwhemingly in-bred.
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I won't comment on the Chinaman, buster brown and alligator, as I'm not really interested in being lynched. Here is buster brown Here is Xena, a Presa Canario from Armando Tortes Kinda looks like buster brown though, doesn't she??:wink: :twisted: Black and Tan doesn't necessarily have to come from the old Black and Tan terrier. It can come from a BnT Bull terrier, a rottie, hell even some LABS(anything black these days is a lab) can carry it. Look at your BnT Coonhounds. Ever wonder where the term in Strattons book HOUND EARED came from?? SO long as BOTH parents of the litter carry the BnT gene, it HAS all it needs to pop up, with out being of ""un-pure"" APBT heritage.:wink: As for the breeding part, Yes and No. Lets look at this logically. We have the dead set serious dog men/women breeding them with the utmost concern and attention to detail, and THEN we have some ghetto thug or inbred redneck breeding anything to anything that has short hair, short muzzle and a desire to fight and calling them Pits. Unless the 100% serious are so diligent as to only GIVE puppies to associates or to cull hard, some Joe Blow Thug/hillbilly inevitably will end up with a dog related to their stock. When that is then crossed into their backwoods crap, it is then sold for a higher $$, but still be easier to access than the 100% professional's stock. So, logically, if someone wants a dog and wants it NOW, who would they go to?? The thug/hillbilly. Then, that hillbilly is then put on a HIGHER level of the ladder for producing dogs NOW of some quality, not as high as the Pro's, but hey, ya gotta start somewhere. Now, remember the whole whatever is short haired and likes to fight?? Thats where it comes into play. Seeing as we don't know what ALL jerkoffs use in their yards, when you cross stable 100% stock with scatterbred, mongrel dogs with no testing of ANY kind(legal or illegal), we end up with all the monster dogs we see today. Dogs ranging from 35-120lbs, man biters, dogs afraid of leaves, etc.... That is why I say ""breed"" when I talk about ANY ""breed"", because this is NOT an isolated case or set of circumstances. This happens in ALL breeds. I will go into it further if need be. Mike
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Whoa whoa whoa about the redneck and hillbillies. Who in the world do you think those "Professional Dogmen" that everyone idolizes are? A suave, sophisticated, and educated urbanite learned and trained in genetics and breeding? Hardly, those rednecks and hillbilly's are the back-woods farmers and live-stock people that are the tards that bred the best fighting mutt's everyone wrongly romanticises. They are also the descendents of the same English, Scottish, and Irish dog men that migrated to the south so long ago, hence the majority of the ethnic make up, accent, and colloquialisms of the south and appalachia. As for the thug gangstas, you're probably spot on :)
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Redneksamurai, I was talking about Joe Bob, 5 dead cars in the yard, 2 dead dogs, 1 tooth trying to win the lottery RED NECK. Not a person from the backwoods who happens to breed dogs. :wink:
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Actually I thought you were referring to me personally when I saw rendeck, but then I mispell my handle on purpose so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. :P
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Would that be like crossing a mountain cur with a wiener dog? Both are short haired and like to fight in their own way. It could go in between the legs of other dogs and lockjaw on the opponents wiener till they call the match? I could see a thug or redneck walking one of those with a heavy chain and lock on it for looks. Intimidating everyone and everything because their dog will lockjaw on your dork. Dragonmark would own it and take pics of it beating up his dogos and neo.
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LMAO at REDNEKSAMURAI!
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Redeagle, i think the tenacity of the bulldog did little to take away from the terriers gameness,just logical thinking,nowhere has it been said that the bulldogge of old was a cur breed.....
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[quote=crnosrce1]This happens in ALL breeds. I will go into it further if need be. Mike[/quote] How does it come about in kennel club registered breeds? What are some of the more popular crosses done among the show bench crowd? [quote=redneksamurai]Whoa whoa whoa about the redneck and hillbillies. Who in the world do you think those "Professional Dogmen" that everyone idolizes are? A suave, sophisticated, and educated urbanite learned and trained in genetics and breeding? Hardly, those rednecks and hillbilly's are the back-woods farmers and live-stock people that are the tards that bred the best fighting mutt's everyone wrongly romanticises. They are also the descendents of the same English, Scottish, and Irish dog men that migrated to the south so long ago, hence the majority of the ethnic make up, accent, and colloquialisms of the south and appalachia. As for the thug gangstas, you're probably spot on :)[/quote] I think something very important to keep in mind is that demographics and dogs change. Even dogs of the same breed are only similar in name. For example, the Irish were tremendously involved and influential of the development of the APBT, today the best lines exist in Eastern Europe. Cultures that value hard work, honor, bravery, civility, self-respect. These may not be the book-club type, or PBS viewership, or the type to discuss stock portfolios, but poverty and class are seperate things. People who generalize all dog-fighters as being low class, cruel, degenerates looking to compensate for their own inadequacies take a very narrow view. We know better in our developed and sophisitcated culture, but not everyone views things the way modern Americans do. I'm not a relativist, but I am a proponent of contextualism.
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[quote=RedEagle"][quote="crnosrce1]This happens in ALL breeds. I will go into it further if need be. Mike[/quote] How does it come about in kennel club registered breeds? What are some of the more popular crosses done among the show bench crowd?[/quote] Look at the Belgian Mallinois. Over the years, we have started to see dogs who's ears DON'T stand up, have MUCH more prey drive, and have become much more ""bully-ish"" in their mannerisms... Why?? Because the working crowd who wanted to have a shepherd type dog who is only a shepherd in looks, added in APBT and EBT into the mix, so as to NOT have to deal with the stigma surrounding the Bully breeds. The reason being, [url=http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-42345]Look at this picture[/url] This happens to be an Am Staff X GSD. If you look at this cross, it is VERY similar to how the Mallinois is cunstructed, and that is without using Mal blood. When you do the same cross with a Mal, you end up more Malinois-y. And, when you take that offspring back into another Mal, BING you end up with Fresh Malinois, who have more lead in their ass and more fire in their belly. Look at the Doberman. Look at what they have become. Then, lets look at what could be used to get the doberman back to its former glory.... The Beauceron. Look at the House of Hoyt Dobermans, you can see that they are about the norm in height, but are quite a bit thicker, have tan on the inside of the ears(beauceron trait), and are MUCH more stable than just about any other Dobies out there. That is what happens when you add in little ingredients that are so similar to the mix, you clean up MANY problems, and you can HIDE the genes very easily. After being exposed to as many different crosses as I have in the past yr or so, and going to a few UKC shows, PSA and Sport dog trials and such, one starts to realize just what exactly is going on in this little dog world we have all chosen to take part in. Take that kind of thinking, and you can put it to ANY breed out there, and you can come up with just what has been added to the mix as of late. Every wonder why the EM, BM, StB and DDB are all really starting to look like one another, only with different coats?? :wink: :twisted: Or, ever wonder how now the Corso is becoming BIGGER than its bigger brother, the NEO?? This stuff isn't as difficult and far fetched as people would lead you to believe.. and WHY would they want to keep you from believing it?? [size=24][color=red]$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$[/color][/size] Nothing more, Nothing Less. For Gods sake, look up old Ken Buzzle's Land of Giants APBT... Tell me there isn't some Dane and Neo and DDB blood in there. Mike
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[blockquote]People who generalize all dog-fighters as being low class, cruel, degenerates looking to compensate for their own inadequacies take a very narrow view. We know better in our developed and sophisitcated culture, but not everyone views things the way modern Americans do. I'm not a relativist, but I am a proponent of contextualism.[/blockquote] I agree to a point. [blockquote] today the best lines exist in Eastern Europe. Cultures that value hard work, honor, bravery, civility, self-respect.[/blockquote] I also agree there to a point. I understand old world mentality, trust me I do, and I am very well traveled having spent time immersed in several different cultures from western Europe, eastern Europe, south east Asia, and the Middle East, we are talking years each not a week vacation. I understand old world mentality because my grandfather who raised me was an immigrant born in 1902 in another country and era which was well behind the U.S. I understand and respect the way that other cultures view things and appreciate that oft times those beliefs run counter to current social acceptance and beliefs in the West or an older way of thinking that the West has evolved past. I appreciate and understand it because of my experience and where I come from as well; the Appalachian region itself has outdated views, beliefs, and cultural peculiarities all its own. However, I will never attempt to glorify or justify dog fighters as they have no justifiable place in the old world, other cultures, or here. Fighting dogs do not guard, do not herd, do not hunt, do not war, and serve no purpose other than for gamblings sake; I would guess its the same in every country. You cannot tell me that Afghanis and other Middle Easterners fight dogs to test stock, they dont, they do it to make money, its gambling. Besides if you want to test stock for herding/guardiang purposes you do just that, not pit two dogs in a box. Old world America and old world Europe are the same. People developed dogs for a purpose and bad people took dogs and developed them for their purpose, gambling. And gambling has historically took place amongst low lifes in shady and seedy places where life is cheap, anywhere Earth. I do repsect your opinions as you have viable and informative things to say, but I think the argument in favor of dogfighters is weak. There are numerous other dogs that are so much better than a fighting dog. A dog that guards property, a dog that will fight a man, a dog that puts food on the table, a dog that herds, those are valuable animals doing honorable things. Fighting dogs, that is cruel in any culture, no culture views outright base cruelty as anything other than that. God gave man dominion over these animals for a reason, that makes man the steward of these creatures and to engage in something as twisted and sick as dog fighting is called bad stewardship; that is something I believe any honorable human being in any culture can understand.
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crnosrce, You make some valid points about various breeds being used in certain breeding programs. However, no matter how many times you mix and match other dogs to try and "make" a pit bull, you can come up with a similar dog in appearance, however the intensity, tenacity and drive will not be equaled or surpassed anytime soon. So even though there are dogs that look similar in appearance and may look like a pit it can never have the intensity and drive of a pit aside from the hybrid vigor of using 1st gen outcross.
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ABBB, When you have the time or chance, find someone who you know, or do it yourself. Cross an EBT with an EB, or an ABPT with an EB, and tell us if the fire, intensity and drives aren't equal to that of an APBT. Mike
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Or even try the wiener dog outcross to whichever bully you fancy, they bring much fire in the belly there!
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[quote=AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog]try and "make" a pit bull, you can come up with a similar dog in appearance, however the intensity, tenacity and drive will not be equaled or surpassed anytime soon. So even though there are dogs that look similar in appearance and may look like a pit it can never have the intensity and drive of a pit aside from the hybrid vigor of using 1st gen outcross.[/quote] Hybrid vigor is just as much a crock as your idealistic views of the Pit. :roll: While trying to convince you that it IS possible to create a dog that will (at a minimum) equal a Pit's intensity, tenacity and drive is a waste of time, I ask you what can be said for the fact that these crossed dogs will have far more stable temperaments and won't be nervous wrecks like so many of the "good" Pits?
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[quote=redneksamurai]Would that be like crossing a mountain cur with a wiener dog? Both are short haired and like to fight in their own way. It could go in between the legs of other dogs and lockjaw on the opponents wiener till they call the match? I could see a thug or redneck walking one of those with a heavy chain and lock on it for looks. Intimidating everyone and everything because their dog will lockjaw on your dork. Dragonmark would own it and take pics of it beating up his dogos and neo.[/quote] Right over my head...I don't see the funny part. Mixing dogs indiscriminately makes for mutts....thats it...nothing better.
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perhaps this is something you want to look into?? http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/doguebrasileiro.htm the first picture is a really good looking dog IMO. I actualy want to start a program some day and make some "family" alternatives. Testing for temp at birth and throughout, breeding for type until they breed true.... it would be awesome :D
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[quote="crnosrce1"][url=http://members4.boardhost.com/hurricanekennel/index.html?1216189957]Here's a board[/url] for Patterdale Terrier talk, to learn up on the game little terriers. [url=http://xsorbit26.com/users5/traditionalworkingairedaleterrier/index.php]Here's a board[/url] for Working and Hunting Airedale Terriers, and all terriers for that matter. CHeck them out guys! Mike[/quote] Again, why Pointers and Labs when you got these guys? [quote=KeItH]Redeagle, i think the tenacity of the bulldog did little to take away from the terriers gameness,just logical thinking,nowhere has it been said that the bulldogge of old was a cur breed.....[/quote] So, then, why not the EBT? If the bulldog was anacceptable out-cross, why not use another bullterrier breed? [quote="crnosrce1"]ABBB, Cross an EBT with an EB, Mike[/quote] Cool! I wanted to ask about this. A couple of months ago, I'd have thought the APBT to be the best thing to out-cross to an EB. I just didn't have the facts about the EBT, but I also thought that due to their varied appearances the product would look worse than comical. But maybe this is an ideal cross? Do you have any pics? Also, my dad bred dogs at one time and a book he had on the topic was written in the early 70's (Dogs and How to Breed Them). In a section on inherited traits, they cross very different breeds and then breed back to one of the parent breeds. They bred Salukis and Dachshunds, an EB and GSD. The bulldog featured was less typey than most today, but still disfigured. The GSD looked like an imported police dog. By the time they had dogs which were 3/4 Shepherd, the animals looked like lop-eared, bulked up Shepherds, but in no way EB's. I can see getting away w/ Malinois which are 1/8th or less APBT. Especially, if the APBT enhances athleticism and svleteness of frame. [quote=RubberDucky]perhaps this is something you want to look into?? http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/doguebrasileiro.htm the first picture is a really good looking dog IMO. I actualy want to start a program some day and make some "family" alternatives. Testing for temp at birth and throughout, breeding for type until they breed true.... it would be awesome :D[/quote] This cross was done in Australia before Brazil. Interestingly, those dogs were bred for catch work.... and are non man-agressive. It is/was widely considered the best cross, or best foundation cross for that line of work. I think this illustrates the versatility and effectiveness of the EBT. While I consider it better to foster existing breeds than create new ones, someone on this board mentioned a Boxer breeder in Canada/north America, who breeds healthy and athletic Boxers which weigh over 100 lbs. That'd be the dog you'd want to cross your well-bred EBT to.
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[quote=RedEagle"][quote="KeItH]Redeagle, i think the tenacity of the bulldog did little to take away from the terriers gameness,just logical thinking,nowhere has it been said that the bulldogge of old was a cur breed.....[/quote] So, then, why not the EBT? If the bulldog was anacceptable out-cross, why not use another bullterrier breed?[/quote]It was a acceptable outcross,there were more than one strain of bull and terrier,but pedigrees/bloodlines were highly regarded and seldom shared.I dont care why it happened it did,and its over,im through talking about stuff that happened 200 somewhat years ago at the begining of even the idea of a pure bred dog...bull dog added strength,tenacity and power as well as size.
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[blockquote]This cross was done in Australia before Brazil. Interestingly, those dogs were bred for catch work.... and are non man-agressive. It is/was widely considered the best cross, or best foundation cross for that line of work. I think this illustrates the versatility and effectiveness of the EBT. While I consider it better to foster existing breeds than create new ones, someone on this board mentioned a Boxer breeder in Canada/north America, who breeds healthy and athletic Boxers which weigh over 100 lbs. That'd be the dog you'd want to cross your well-bred EBT to.[/blockquote] I didn't know that little tidbit about them originating in australia. That acutaly doesnt suprise me any. I also agree that it is best to foster and promote already stable and recognized breeds, however this was just a dream and probably wont come to fruition. I love the boxer breed and the EBT breed, and I think that the RIGHT combination between both traits behaviourly and astheticly would make one great dog.
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Bull terrier and Boxer were bred in to the Dogo Argentino and have helped to create a very good type of dog. There is already a type set with a very hard working dog. There is no denying that the EBT can add to a good mix. However that would depend on the goal. Personaly I like the fighting bull terrier that does not exist anymore. I don't care much for the Roman nose or the egg head of the present type.
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Which fighting bull terrier do you mean EXACTLY ? Names and match results would be appreciated. Thanks
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Dogo's are neat, and I really like them. However my aim with my own crossing would be to breed a dog who wasn't as tall. I want to make it into a working farm dog/droving dog. Herding dogs are nice, but shear intimidation works well to control livestock :lol:
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Where is the picture of this cross?
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http://www.molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&pos=-29320
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I can't find one right off hand but here's a pic of a BullTerrier X Boxer: Also check out the Italian BullTerrier:
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Here's some more: EBTxPit Here's some others that look fairly similar but I can't find any more info other than being some sort of EBT mixes:
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Xamen besides the EBTxBoxer from Boar dogs and the Italian bull terrier picture are the others from known breedings or just speculation by a shelter or an individual because of the prick ears? The only one that looks like a EBTx is the first dog in your second post and that is going by head shape, it could even be a modern EBT that does not have an over exagerated egg head shape. http://www.edreid.co.uk/Picture%20gallery2.htm Take a look at the two EBT in the gallery above. Sure they could have been outcrossed with another bull and terrier breed, but I wish they all looked like this.
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[quote=lunadogge]Xamen besides the EBTxBoxer from Boar dogs and the Italian bull terrier picture are the others from known breedings or just speculation by a shelter or an individual because of the prick ears? The only one that looks like a EBTx is the first dog in your second post and that is going by head shape, it could even be a modern EBT that does not have an over exagerated egg head shape. [/quote] All the first ones were listed as EBTxPit dogs. Also, the very last pic (Ch. Stormer) I just confirmed is also an EBTxPit who is a well known cross. This cross is not terribly uncommon and the bully head is not a very strong feature - it's actually recessive - as is the over-exaggerated "bulldog type" head.
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Xamen I am familiar with the cross I was just wondering if these were known EBTx or just speculation. I have seen some APBT and EBT crosses out of eastern europe and they did look similiar to Stormer. I just to often see shelters that have Bull and terriers of unkown orgin list any prick ear dog as a EBTx. The trait is common in APBT's, but it is probably done to adopt out a dog easier.
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There is a lot more to these dog's head structure (which is commonly seen in some EBT crosses) than just ears. I have seen enough of verified, intentional crosses to see the similarity. There are two I might question, but the dropped maxillary, lineated and lowered nasal ridge, flattened frontal bone and zygomatic arch positioning are all distinctive of an EBT infleuence. I see what you are saying about rescues and their "guessing" (trust me, I have seen many pure game bred looking pits up for adoption as boxer crosses :roll: ) but for the most part, I feel a lot of these are pretty blatant.
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IMO, Tyson is one of the most attractive dogs I've ever seen. I don't want to offend anyone who prefers the dogs from the other pictures, but I think it's unfortunate if that's the "more typical" look produced by this cross. These are just a handful of pictures, but it's strange that there aren't more photos of dogs that look like Tyson. To me, he looks like a giant Staffy with crocodile jaws! :twisted:
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Well, take into account that I said I see the EBT influence, and that says nothing for the merit of the parent EBT OR the other "breed" used.... Well bred parents should produce a more consistent and even impressive dog (I have noticed) but genetics are funny.
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:) THE EBT X STAFFY IS A FAIRLY COMMON CROSS HERE IN ENGLAND, THE FIRST CROSS IS VERY MUCH LIKE THE EBT OF JAMES HINKS' DAY. THE STAFFY BLOOD ADDS MUSCLE DEFINITION, A PERSONALITY MORE EAGAR TO PLEASE AND ADDS ALL ROUND ATHLETICISM. THE LEGGIER, ATHLETIC STAFFORD WOULD BE FIRST CHOICE TO USE, AND BY CROSSING WITH THE EBT CREATES SOMETHING MORE CLOSE TO THE ORIGINAL EBT. IF I WERE TO HAVE ONE OF THESE CROSSES, I'D GO FOR 3/4 EBT 1/4 STAFFORD. THIS CREATES A DOG CLOSELY RESEMBLING THE ORIGINAL EBT, WITH JUST ENOUGH STAFFORD BLOOD TO AWARD THE DOG WITH ADDED ATHLETICISM, A TEMPERAMENT MORE WILLING TO LEARN AND TO SOFTEN THE EXTREMETIES OF THE EBT HEAD AND THE OVER BULKINESS OF MANY ENGLISH BULL TERRIERS. I SUPPOSE THIS CROSS IS CREATED BECAUSE OF OUR FASCINATION WITH THE DOGS OF OLD, PLUS IT'S AN INTERESTING DOG TO USE AT WEIGHT PULL EVENTS AND WITH ATHLETIC PURSUITS. ALSO ANOTHER FACT NOT TO FORGET IS "HYBRID VIGOUR".
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FOR THE PERSON WHO HAS WRITTEN THAT HYBRID VIGOUR IS CROCK, "YOUR AVIN A LAUGH". YOU NEED TO DO SOME HOMEWORK SON, READ A BOOK OR JUST LEARN ABOUT BREEDING OF ANY KIND, BE IT PLANTS, LIVESTOCK, DOGS OR ANY LIVING CREATURE. I'D LIKE YOU TO SPEAK TO ANY CATTLE BREEDER, PIG BREEDER, SHEEP BREEDER, BREEDERS OF ANY LIVESTOCK AND TELL THEM THAT HYBRID VIGOUR IS CROCK, THEY WOULD LAUGH FOR A VERY LONG TIME AT YOUR COMMENT.
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[quote="crnosrce1"]But, J.P. Colby was known for using Bull Terriers AND bulldogs in his APBT's. Which, also could go along with the explanation of why his dogs like galtie and red and white paddy were barely 30lbs and Pincher and the Twister dogs were Over catchweight... It is my belief that crossing a bull terrier and a pitbull will NOT take away from the pit in any way, but add to it. Plus, now that you brought up the fighters of old not caring for the size of game dogs so long as they were game.... How about their use of Pointer and Labrador Retriever?? That would explain the size increase, That would explain the chocolate colored dogs. They would use the Lab and Pointer to increase the Prey drive. Lets face it, when a Pitbull is fighting, it is not an ordinary mindset. they are hunting the other dog. For gods sake, they do the same thing to a dead dog that they do to live one's. Just like terriers. A terrier will freak out over a dead rodent as much as a live one, and they are HUNTING the vermin. Plus, a lab is a dog who has absolutely NO problem scrapping with other dogs, and aren't man aggressive, 2 traits that were HIGHLY selected for in the game dog circle. I mean, look in the old Stratton books... How many of them old dogs had long houndy ears. In fact, he even talked about that, so did Semencic. If you doubt any of this part, look into finding out about a common cross of pitbull/labrador called the Bela Lugosi or Lugosi bulldog or Belagosi Bulldog. In Fact, Larry Koura of Rode Hawg kennels used to have a kennel video out. In this video, he explained where the Black AB came from.... From the addition of Belagosi Bulldog into 2 lines, and then crossing them, hence doubling up on the black genes, and POOF!!! Black Ab's. As for the Mini-BT, I like them for what they are,mini BT.... I wouldn't use them for ANY crossings, as they are a train wreck with health issues. Heres what to expect when doing that cross of EBT x APBT [/quote] I know a thing or two about fightingdogs and dogfighting,but I´m conscious what I stay light years ago of a deep knowledge about that matter but,with all my respects,I´m sceptical about all the tales about Colby crosses his fighting dogs with bulldogs and bulterriers. You are confused with certain ethological matters about agresivity,hunting and prey instinct and fighting behavior in fighting dogs.An agresive hunting dog (I agree,examples of agresive labs,goldens,german shorthaired pointers and other hunting dogs exist) be ,too,agresive with people in many cases.The fighting instinc in fighting dogs is a very complex matter what go a lot more away agresivity and hunting instinc.Sorry my engish.Greetings from Spain.
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[quote="crnosrce1"]I will quote to you from Eugene Glass' book from 1910, WORD FOR WORD. [color=orange]The origin of the Pit Bull Terrier, sometimes called the Sporting Bull Terrier, is similar to that of the English (bench show) Bull Terrier, both of whom are supposed to be the result of a cross of the old English Bulldog and the White English Terrier, with perhaps some Pointer thrown in later. In the case of the bench show dog, it is necessary that it be pure white in color, although it is seldom seen, even to this day, that each one in a litter from pure white parents is solid white. The brindle and black of the old Bulldog seems to linger and crop out unexpectedly in the offspring. Those with white markings, not eligible to show dog honors, have from time to time been trained to compete in rat killing contests, and used for bear, badger and raccoon baiting, and also for contests in the pit.[/color] He went on to say: [color=orange]These Bull Terriers with brindle and black markings, which were forced into the pit dog class, have been bred heavier and more powerful in build than the bench show type, and in some cases receive a special training for pit purposes, hence the PIT BULL TERRIER. However, notwithstanding the claims of many breeders of the pit variety, he does NOT naturally possess one whit more gameness in his make up than does his pure white brother. Take 2 dogs of equal weight, one a strictly bench show type and the other a ""dead game"" fighting dog, and the chances are just as good that the show dog will win in a fight as the pit dog will, and in many cases his gameness is greatly superior to that of the trained fighter, who perhaps loses in that respect by an outcross or some fault in rearing or early training.[/color] Look up a dog named Woodcote Wonder. He was a 51 lbs, 20 inch dog who was whelped in England. It was written in this book: [color=orange]He defeated nearly everything shown to him for nearly 10 yrs both in England and America, and won enough championships to crown half a dozen dogs champion. His stud fee was $100, and we print his picture as an illustration of a perfect type of the bench show Bull Terrier, although of late years and some faddists have been breeding a dog lighter in build and higher on his legs.[/color] Now, I'm not writing this in the hopes that you will take it serious, but I am going into this knowing full well that in return I will get "That is just 1 man's opinion and only 1 dog, come up with something more concrete". So, if after this you decide to not read what the words I wrote her for what they are, HISTORICAL WRITINGS FROM 1910, then I have no more desire to continue this conversation. I am not trying to sound like some pompous ass, but to NOT take this man's writings as history and with truth, then it would mean that you(collective) are spitting in the face of a fore comer in the breed you love. And he is not the only writer, there have been many more, including Colby, Armitage and others who have been in this game long before WWII, which is when things got much more secretive and a lot of bogus theories and stories started to creep up I.E. the whole ""pit bull is a pure bulldog"" thing. You guys need to realize the fact, and then accept it, that anything that was pure white back in the day was a bench show Bull terrier, anything that was NOT pure white, was a PIT BULL TERRIER... The Pit Bull Terrier is a by-product of the EBT.... Nothing more, nothing less. And here is your proof, I provided, word for word, the common knowledge from dogmen of 100 yrs past, that we, as supposed evolved and further along society, are still not capable of understanding.... [size=24]I AM JUST TRYING TO HELP[/size] I highly recommend to anyone interested in the EBT or the APBT to go on amazon and purchase a reprint of THE SPORTING BULL TERRIER, By EUGENE GLASS.[/quote] In the years of the development of the modern EBT,the breeders of the new type (white EBT) use fighting dogs cross to refresh the blood of his products.In that years (first decades of the XX century) the fighting dogs of Great Britain and Ireland was,basically,the direct ancestors of the modern SBT.And in that years this dogs was called (oh,surprise!) bullterriers.More,the reason of the new name of the old type fighting dog was that the fightingdog breeders sell his dogs like (or coloured) bullterriers and this fact don´t make happy to the EBT show breeders.When the breeders close the EBT studbook to the fighting dogs the kennel club porpuse to the breeders of the old fighting type the recognition.The breeders of the "old-new" type porpuse two names to the "new" breed:Original Bullterrier and,like alternative,Staffordshire Bull Terrier.Sorry my english.Greetings from Spain.
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[quote=DoggyDaddy"][quote="redneksamurai]If someone can please explain to me why gameness is such a great trait if you aren't a dog fighter? Gameness seems synonymous with dog aggression. I owned a dog I would call game and he had no APBT or AB blood in him that I could see. He was a terrier mix mutt of about 50 to 60 lbs, wiry haired, with a natural mohawk, and unsocial and violent as can be with other dogs, except for females. He was a free ranging dog, we lived out in the country growing up, and he was scarred in every way imaginable. Lost teeth, shredded ears, multiple scars that we had to sew up, his neck had been ravaged countless times but he lived and got patched up. I heard him fighting, because I couldn't get him to break it off, for over 2 hours one night with multiple dogs during heat season when I was a kid. He literally fought till he could not stand at all and just laid in a creek cooling off. He came home hours later when he had the strength. He got whipped all the time but other dogs who had more sense retreated from him rather than continuing the fight as they saw no purpose in it and I believe thought him crazy and was afraid of him. He never gave up under any circumstances. When I look back on him, even though I loved him, I see no value in owning such an animal. They bring nothing to the table, serve no purpose, and are more of a liability than anything. Luckily he was completely non-aggressive and friendly with any and all strangers.[/quote]Yep he sure sounds crazy all right! 8O My pit bull BoBo was the same way; he hated all male dogs and loved all humans and female dogs, but he was an inside dog. He never had a doghouse outside. He would go in the back yard for his bathroom, and would lay out in the sun for a little while if he wanted to, but when he wanted in he would let me know real fast. And if I didn't bring him in he would get VERY destructive. One day I left him out and went to the health club to work out. When I got back he had chewed the armrests off my lawn chairs and bitten through the handles of my lawn mower and other tools. I could never let him off leash because of his dog-aggression. He was in only two fights in his life, both with off-leash dogs and both times had the dog on the ground before I could intervene. One was a Chow, the other one was a Rottweiler. Luckily I had made a "break stick" in my garage so I was able to pry his jaws apart before he killed the dogs. He stood 28" at the shoulders and weighed 110lbs so not many dogs chose to challenge him on our walks. He loved riding in the back of my truck but he hardly ever barked. He died last December of cancer at age 14. He was my best friend and I loved him very much. :cry: :cry:[/quote] 28" and 115 lbs? Photos, Is posible? I´m very interested in the matter of giants pitbulls.
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[quote=LeeRobinson]Gameness and dog aggression are not one and the same. There are a lot of dogs that are very dog aggressive (rank drive), but show no gameness. Then there are also some game dogs that believe it or not are not dog aggressive until they need to be.[/quote] I agree.
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Good point Lee.
Gary
Quote · 2044 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=crnosrce1]ABBB, When you have the time or chance, find someone who you know, or do it yourself. Cross an EBT with an EB, or an ABPT with an EB, and tell us if the fire, intensity and drives aren't equal to that of an APBT. Mike[/quote] I've personally experienced EBT + APBT and EBT + Catahoula and Catahoula + APBT. They are dog-aggressive, no doubt about it but they are not the equal of a gamebred Pit Bull and the Pit Bulls used in the crosses WERE gamebred multiple-time winners. Some of the ignoramuses who eventually got their mits on them would "match"them into OTB (other than bulldogs) and they stopped all from what I've heard. When rolled with an APBT they all quit. But I don't think the knowledgeable guys were surprised at this and I'd still like to have one of the crosses as a pet. I'll say this, guys, there is something unique about the Bulldog genes. My nephew has a French Bulldog crossed with a Standard Poodle. It's a handsome dog with a Pit Bullish head and slightly undershot with feathering on it's legs over it's eyes on it's muzzle and ears. It looks like a black, blocky headed Airedale. Fiesty rascal, long-legged, stubborn, fast and quick and EXTREMELY tractable. He's also dog-aggressive and very protective. But I digress. The reason I mention this is that we don't fully understand geneology but there are two TYPES of dog that are INVALUABALE to me: the gamebred Pit Bulldog and the gamebred terriers. You can create a hardy, feisty vermin killer extraordinaire by crossing them but a pitdog fighter par excellence will elude you if thats what you're after.
Quote · 2044 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=Xamen13"][quote="AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog]try and "make" a pit bull, you can come up with a similar dog in appearance, however the intensity, tenacity and drive will not be equaled or surpassed anytime soon. So even though there are dogs that look similar in appearance and may look like a pit it can never have the intensity and drive of a pit aside from the hybrid vigor of using 1st gen outcross.[/quote] Hybrid vigor is just as much a crock as your idealistic views of the Pit. :roll: While trying to convince you that it IS possible to create a dog that will (at a minimum) equal a Pit's intensity, tenacity and drive is a waste of time, I ask you what can be said for the fact that these crossed dogs will have far more stable temperaments and won't be nervous wrecks like so many of the "good" Pits?[/quote] Not sure about the "more stable temperment" and gamebred dogs being "nervous wrecks". I've not seen that in gamebred Pit Bulls. Most are very personable and very clownish/playful with humans.
Quote · 2044 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
[quote=redneksamurai]No Dragonmark, Pits are not nor ever will be as good a hunting dog as a Patterdale. That would ruin the Patterdale breed as opposed to the other way around. But I do hear some people breed PitterPats for whatever reason. Regardless its still a game dog :P Who mentioned mixing them anyway, I didn't? And there isn't a different kind of Game, it is what it is. Unless of course you are going to school me again in what dog aggression is and isnt in contrast to game. The thread is spinning circles and making me dizzy! 8O Er unless you meant "Game" as in function, I could have misread that :wink:[/quote] Gameness and Dog Aggression are not necessarily synonymous. I know of three pitdogs who were each four time winners that were not dog aggressive. Surely, if a dog attacked them they'd eventually kill them but one was walked through the neighborhood regularly. He'd sniff noses with dogs through the fence and play with them (through the fence). He even got loose one day and was found playing with smaller dogs down the street. My own gamebred dog (never matched; only a pet) wasn't always dog aggressive, either. The neighbor's Red Bone Coonhound would dig under the fence and they'd play togetherl. Two male high-drive breeds. However, if the dog were highly aggressive he'd attack it relentlessly. My cousins also had gamebred dogs (also pets) and one of them - "Angel" - was very dog aggressive. Her sister - "Princess" was very dog and human friendly. My dog "Rocky" would break up any aggression between the two (always instigated by "Angel"). ALL three of these dogs had multiple, multi-win dogs on both sides of their pedigree.
Quote · 925 days ago · 0 people like this ·
 
I think someone was asking for this?[br][img:width=250&height=396]{e_FILE}public/1326689155_19198_FT29597_cassius.jpg">
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