• HOWEDY davidn3, [quote=davidn3]I also was kind of looking at the e-collar. My 9 month old bullmastiff pup likes to test me, which I think is normal.[/quote] NO, that AIN'T "NORMAL", davidn3. Dogs "challenge" their owners or other dogs ONLY when they're AFRAID. The entire alphalpha duminance THEORY is SHEER IDIOCY. [quote=davidn3] But the problem sometimes is when he doesn't have his prong collar or lead on.[/quote] You mean, when he AIN'T AFRAID of you HURTIN him? [quote=davidn3] For example -- If he happens to have something I don't want him to have and I tell him to drop it -- If he has his prong collar on he will, but if not he will want to test me and try to play keep away.[/quote] You COULD TRAIN HIM to COME EVERY TIME and DROP or BRING YOU ANY THING on your 1st request, IF YOU KNEW HOWE. LIKE THIS: Hi, Jerry. I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit more). For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even if that was the only method that would work, I'd live with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho'). Best, ben [quote=davidn3] I don't let him win,[/quote] HOWE do you suppHOWES THAT might effect his PROTECTION TRAININ, davidn3? Of curse, you may not be interested in protection trainin, but that's not all "not letting him win" will effect. Don't you want a CONFIDENT dog, a dog who AIN'T AFRAID of NUTHIN? ALL temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. If you want to see some EXXXAMPLES of this, just visit cesar millan's website. There you'll find a HUGE preponderance of dogs who FEAR THUNDE, have separation anxiety, and are HYPERACTIVE as a DIRECT RESULT of alphalpha duminance THEORY trainin. IN FACT, a recent recipient of cesar's LIFE SAVING methods, an English Bulldog named Butch DIED of a heart attack from constantly "challenging" and being alphalpha rolled as the ces instructed. I'll post a link to the video and my reviews of his "LIFE SAVING TECHNIQUES": cesar's way: RIP Butch: http://tinyurl.com/56za72 [quote=davidn3]I eventually get a hold of him and put his prong collar on. At that time he is an angel because he knows he is in trouble. We will go through a series of commands until he is listening to everything I say.[/quote] Your PUPPY is goin through the so called "adolescent rebelliHOWES stage" identified by Scott & Fuller as a developmental period at 8-9 months of age. HOWEver, what Scott & Fuller DIDN'T REALIZE, is, that the 'adolescent rebelliHOWES STAGE' DOESN'T HAPPEN if the dog AIN'T BEING CHALLENGED. These developmental stages occur again at 18-24 months and five years of age, which coincidentally COINcide with the ages many dogs are MURDERED for TURNING on their owners. [quote=davidn3]Would this type of situation be a time for the e-collar? or should I just keep being persistent and not let him get away with that kind of stuff?[/quote] No, you should FORGET EVERY THING you've been TAUGHT by the self-professed dog trainers who jerk choke bribe crate shock and intimidate innocent defenseless dumb critters and are AFRAID to DEFEND THEMSELVES when THEY'RE CHALLENGED by the SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR. "The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The question is not can they REASON, nor can they TALK, but can they SUFFER?" - - Jeremy Bentham "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - - C.S. Lewis. "Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon. The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior Never Change, Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results For All Handler's And All Critters, And ALL Behaviors In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES, ALL OVER The Whole Wild World, NEARLY INSTANTLY, As Taught In Your Own FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply A-M-A-Z-I-N-G M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C G-R-A-N-D M-A-S-T-E-R Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL ***FREE*** WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat, Goat, Ferret, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Training Method Manual All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer "Thank you for fighting the fine fight-- even tho it's a hopeless task, in this system of things. As long as man is ruling man, there will be animals (and humans!) abused and neglected. :-( Your student," Juanita. "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow," John Wayne. "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!" "Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain!" -Friedrich Schiller. INDEEDY. AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE! In Love And Light, I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours, The World's CRUELEST Trainer Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply A-M-A-Z-I-N-G *M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C* *G-R-A-N-D* *M-A-S-T-E-R* Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Director of Research, Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory, BIOSOUND Scientific, Director of Training, Wits' End Dog Training 1611 24th St Orlando, FL 32805 Phone: 1-407-425-5092 (Call ANY TIME) http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard E-mail: Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory @HotMail.Com Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory @HotMail.Com TheAmazingPuppyWizard @Mail.Com ANY QUESTIONS, People? ,-._,-, V)"(V (_o_) Have a great day! / V) (l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. oo-oo