PP work v/s guard work

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I look at it this way..almost any dog on these forums can "guard" his home..some waaaaaaaaaaay better than others..some will bark and alert you and your neighbors..some will be pro active after alert: they than protect their area with force if need be REALLY good ones do it w/o owner present. PP dogs are Highly trained dogs that WANT to serve and protect..I love Rotties and Dobies & CERTAIN Bandogs for this..alot of folks like GSD types for this also.. The dog in your 1st PP scene..would be Rin Tin Tin. 8) I have seen DEA and ATF use very "shady" dogs to clear a building and ships..think search and destroy..agents do not seem eager to rush in they seem to let dogs do work.

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The big difference between LGD dogs and herding dogs is the prey drive herders need prey to chase and herd LGD need more defence and less prey drive so they would stay with the herd to defend them and not chase them or run off after a deer or dog or whatever else both types are protective but for catching bad guys a herder is more likely to do a better job. The Cao de fila de Sao Miguel(Azores cattle dog) is a rare breed that can do both exellent guard dog of property or livestock staying with cows and herding them to milk or sell. They also track & catch wild cattle, boar & rabbits. they make great PP dogs with very stable & balanced drives.

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The dog running to defend the sheep and fight a challenger in his territoy is defence and fight drive still not prey if it was just prey the Sar would chase the wolves all day and leave the sheep but because they usually have more defence then prey they stay within there territory or the shepperd would have no use for a dog that didn't stay with the herd dogs with to much prey drive were no good and not kept. With the herding dogs they worked closer with people taking orders with lots of prey drive so they would chase all day and mabye go hunting when a deer or rabbit came by but still listning to there master. The hounds used just for hunting are all prey all they want is to chase with little defence they will usually not stay at home on their own but will be out chasing anything they can hunt. The herding dogs usually have both prey & defence but you still have to find individuals with the right balance of all there drives pack, fight, defence, prey you can find LGD and Hounds with all the right drives for police work but it wouldn't be common, the herder type was bred for woking with people and chosen for the balance of drives. A few hundred years ago in a litter of working mongels you could get different types and drives one LGD one hunter one herder from the same litter they were born with drives to do a particualr job dogs were types not breeds so much we have refined their type for relability most dogs of a breed should do the job they were breed for but you will still find different drives in individual litter mates and now that dogs don't usually work some breeds haven't worked in centuries so the working drives get lost without selecting for them the dogs look better work worst. Some dogs can do anything you want if you have the time and knowlege but that is rare.

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What drive I forgot to mention was the kill drive terriers were bred for the kill drive along with prey to catch and kill rats for fun not food they had competitions how many in a hour. They bred that into the pitbull because the bulldog wasn't so dog aggresive because they were herders and catch dogs working almost allways with dogs so their pack & kill drives wern't as high as the crazy terrier now they were both very game dogs but different game the terrier killed rats fast the bulldog herded and bullbaited for sport a longfight with a few dogs they didn't go for the quick kill but sill very game for the nose. A LGD is very game to defend his terittory with high defence, fight, & pack and some kill & prey drives they are going to get whatever is in their place out but not always kill. Hounds have had the kill, Pack, & fight drive reduced so they don't usually engage the prey or fight with each other but have high prey drive very game to find game or retrive it. They use many breeds for different game some dig some run some track. Game means determination to do whatever drives the dog.

What I meant by pack drive is dominance to be the top dog LGDs usually have more than other types of dogs that is why they are Independent & territorial, herders usually have less thats why they are willing to please the master but some are still dominant they need it for fighting men in PP work but you still try breeding dogs that are handler safe and take direction a fine line or you can get unstable unsafe dogs. Dogs for PP work need the right amount of all drives or they will be limited in the work they can do if they are to defensive or sharp they may be fear biters if the have to little they may not take a threat seriously and can't be a yard guard. When I say Herding dogs I mean Shepperd, collie, sheepdog & Molosser type bulldogs were herders they were named after the work they did my dog is also called (the cow dog) in Portugal but registered as Cao de fila de Sao Miguel(Azores cattle dog) from where they come from and fila means catch or hold.

Go to this page on my website http://www.chimerakennels.com/dogarticles.htm and read... 1. Animal Behavior and 2. The Family Companion Guardian. As far as the difference between a PP dog and a guard dog...basically a PP dog works WITH a person and doesn't HAVE TO to work alone. A guard dog needs to be ABLE to work without without a person (as it may be necessary on occation). What this boils down to is generally a guard dog needs some level of defense...while a PP dog can have defense but doesn't necessarily have to have it...as a handler can cue a PP dog with a command by "conditioning" the dog to engage upon verbal stimulation. Personally I prefer a dog to have both defense and prey. I also like fight drive but just because a dog has prey or fight drives doesn't mean they would make a guard dog...as a guard dog would need defense too. This is where a guard dog and a PP dog differ (in general). For more detail on drives and types of working dogs...read the links provided above.

Isla I think of dominance as part of pack drive you want a dominant dog to be a LGD so they will engage a threat and beat them which is why they have staged tournament fights for centuries in traditional LGD countries they fight for dominance like tossa's not usually to kill, the best dogs breed, now they do water all breeds down to be pets in cities. With people and pack the dog that is dominant but accepts his place will bite & fight harder than his more submissive brother but you don't want to much the dog has to accept his place to work for you. The equation is complicated as is the sliding scale differences between man aggression & dog aggression. Good info on your site lee also.

Thanks for the complements about my site. IMO though, rank drive/dominance is the WORST behavior for a domesticated animal...be it a protection dog, a fighting dog, or whatever. First...dominance is not related to confidence. Many fighting breeds have proven that...as there are breeds like the APBT that may not show rank but still show intense fight drive and confidence. Also, many dominant breeds are actually insecure when pressed and get in trouble. Breeds like rotties have shown this. I prefer defense, prey, and fight drives...coupled with confidence and nerves for a domesticated guardian.

I agree dominance is the worst but people are breeding those handler aggressive dogs for competition sports we need safe stable dogs they think and work better the truly submissive pup in the litter will not fight as hard. All dogs have rank issues two pit's at the dog park can be all good till someone puts a paw on the other then it's on who is top dog is in all dogs minds to some extent. Acting dominant and being dominant aren't always the same like a little dog acting tough but backing down from a calm confident dominant dog.

isla49 you said you are going to put some defense in the rott. first you cannot put defense in a dog,either he is born with it or he does not have it at all...period. second you develope a dog's defensive drive, you do not put defense in dog.

[quote1250674989=bulltaterbullies] I think Platz said it perectly. Sometime a good guard dog is just one that will bark and sometimes thats all thats needed to change the intruder's mind. [/quote1250674989] Hi, My oppinion is completely different. There are extremely limited dogs they can guard. There are extremely less that they can guard without trainning. GUARD means confront and fight any stranger/intruder/enemy, means ...bite work otherwise what is the difference with the term watch dog? So perhaps many dogs can make a watch dog and just bark which is what it takes in some cases to change the intruder's mind (if he is dog feared or completely uneducated about dogs, cause even a kid can tell if a dog is willing to bite or just barking) For the rest of the cases which they are the extremely serious ones it takes a GUARD dog to take over (faaaaaaaaaaar away from watch dog miillion miles far away, and to my oppinion is better to have a natural guard in such a case. It is just born for this. Trainned ones may be good may be not (in a way that sometimes they can be deceived of a well mannered intruder well educated abut dogs). For sure they did not put their heart to the job in first place. Guard dogs are motivated by the instinct to defend (active not just barking) their territory from any intruder and I believe most of them would die in order to protect everythink in to their territory including (specially) their masters even out of their territory, it is just comes natural to REAL GUARDS. So real guard dogs will defend territory and masters no matter what. The opposite is not for sure, meaning a PP dog will defend his master (and when I say PP dog i mean the one that consider a human as an enemy-and not the one just playing with a sleeve on a friend's arm-and is willing to bite hard this enemy otherwise we speak again for a watch dog with a lot of play drive) but is possible not to defend its territory durring his master absence or to defend it weak compare to a real guard dog which will bite for sure the intruder not just acting fierce towards him.

[quote1315840706=Platz] Guarding is based on the dog's natural territoral instincts and it's defencive drives. PP is obedience work that is based on the dog's prey & defence drives. Any dog can guard, some are more effective that others. Not every dog can do PP work. [/quote1315840706] Hi Platz, Agrred with the first 2 statements. About 3rd one I have diferent perception. Taking in consideration that guard dog differs from the watch dog, in the way that where the watch dog's job end the guard's one starts. Do not comfuse it. The difference is more than huge by far. (instincts,courage,nerves,defence,fight,drives to mention few) A guard dog does a lot better what a watch dog does (the percieved aggression is by far more) and what upgrades it to guard dog is the intention and real use of its teeth, something watch dog CANNOT do it, or it would be a ...guard dog. So, ...any dog can guard? Excactly the oposite, less than few all around the world, even less speaking for no special trainning given. Furthermore this true guard dog will sacrifice its own life without moment of hesitation with its master in danger (can anyone imagine a real CO, Fila, Boerboel, Pressa just laying back while a member of its family getting mauled? The other way around it can happen though. Many good PP dogs (not all) will not trie anythink against an intruder into their teritorrry, simply lacking teritorial instincts like you corectly stated as a must for good guarding job. This is just my oppinion Regards PS Sorry, just noticed I quoted this post in the past as well

[quote1315842012=Platz] [quote=isla49] Do not confuse this with schutzhund training or the typical taking bites on a sleeve that you see on youtube, %99 of the time the dog is just playing a game. [/quote] Shuitzhund is only a "Game" when the Judge records your score. Schutzhund sport and PP is all just obedience utilizing senerios, neither is more "REAL" to the dog. To the dog the result is the same, "I do what master says...I get a bite" :wink: I have an open invitation to anyone that would like to test the 'Shutzhund isn't REAL therory" come over break in my house, see if my Shutzhund dog will bite your if you don't have a sleve on. :lol: [/quote1315842012] Hi Plazt, Your are very lucky for your dog been among 1% (ok we will not estimate the percentage here for sure i believe it is extremelly low) For the rest 99% once the intruder or aggressor takes out his jacket, they will jerk it as stupid ones, making the circle of the winner pride without even noticing its master is mauled or its home is ....missing. The only think they will keep wonder is: WHY THIS NICE PERSON DID NOT JUST PET ME BEFORE HE GOES OFF, AS HE SHOULD HAVE DONNE???????? This is only my opinion only. Regards

[quote1315842778=Paco] For Schutzhund to be training for real world the dogs should be taught to "bite and hold" rather than "bark and hold". Some dogs that are Schutzhund trained will bite a bare arm and then again there are some of them that are so focused on the sleeve that without the decoy wearing it they don't know what to do. It just depends on the dog and whether or not the dog has truly been pushed into defense mode. For example in Schutzhund training why does a GSD keep hold of the sleeve when the decoy releases it and why will the GSD be friends with the decoy and not wary of him when the decoy is off the field. by comparison you do sleeve work with a CO or a Sar it will drop the sleeve immediately when the decoy releases it and go back after the decoy. Take the decoy off of the field and out of his protection clothes and the CO or the Sar will still try to get to the decoy and kill him. [/quote1315842778] Very good point Pacco. I could not have said it any better Regards

[quote1315842923=apsiber] Wasn't the CO used extensively along the Berlin Wall? I think any discredit for all LGD breeds being inappropriate for PP work must address their historical use for this type of work. [/quote1315842923] Hi apsiber, In real life after all when your home or family gets attacked you care much less about the historical backround of your dog rather how aggressive and effective can be proved. We all know a real CO can prove in such situation. Regards

[quote1315843282=Carlos1122] The big difference between LGD dogs and herding dogs is the prey drive herders need prey to chase and herd LGD need more defence and less prey drive so they would stay with the herd to defend them and not chase them or run off after a deer or dog or whatever else both types are protective but for catching bad guys a herder is more likely to do a better job. The Cao de fila de Sao Miguel(Azores cattle dog) is a rare breed that can do both exellent guard dog of property or livestock staying with cows and herding them to milk or sell. They also track & catch wild cattle, boar & rabbits. they make great PP dogs with very stable & balanced drives. [/quote1315843282] Good point Carlos, I have to add though that for urban areas needs, you care much less for you dog to herd a criminal rather gets him down. Regards

[quote1315843668=troy] isla49 you said you are going to put some defense in the rott. first you cannot put defense in a dog,either he is born with it or he does not have it at all...period. second you develope a dog's defensive drive, you do not put defense in dog. [/quote1315843668] Hi Troy, excelent poing, really. Regards