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LOOKING AT GETTING A NEW DOG FOR PROTECTION

Sounds simple enough but that is a difficult choice. Can you tell us a little bit about the climate, space available, and whether the dog will be outside, inside, or both? Do you prefer long coat, short coat, mastiff type or mountain preference? Just how much dog (size) can you handle safely? What is your desire for "health" and visits to the vet?

 

The environmental consideration if a factor that we must consider before making a recommendation. There are several great molossers that could do the job but I would need more details before making a recommendation. The Maremma and CAO already mentioned are great guardians that could work for you.

 

I am looking for a serious protection dog. A large dog. I want a large dog for the intimidating factor which is hopefully enough to deter. beyond that, I want a dog that if you do make the mistake of coming into the yard the dog is going to fully engage. not just jump around and bark or nip.

 

I don't want a dog that someone would be able to befriend. by coming by and feeding it all the time for example.

Replies (50)
    • I am looking at possibly adding another dog to our family.

       

      I am looking for a serious protection dog. A large dog. I want a large dog for the intimidating factor which is hopefully enough to deter. beyond that, I want a dog that if you do make the mistake of coming into the yard the dog is going to fully engage. not just jump around and bark or nip.

       

      I don't want a dog that someone would be able to befriend. by coming by and feeding it all the time for example.

       

      what do you guys think will fit this bill?

       

      i am looking at buying a house, in the area, people have been know to poison dogs just to break in. This was the original reason for wanting to step up the security. now where I am currently staying there are tweekers squatting in the vacant house in the front. So this has pretty much confirmed my want for another dog although I don't plan on buying one until I get my house.

      • get a cao wonderful with family and children and good protection dog..normally his wealth is good and dont go to vet every month:))

        •  Have you considered purchasing an adult (already trained) dog? There are many breeds that would fit the bill for home protection, although not sure if a CAO would be the best for you. Don't you have multiple dogs currently?-CAO's can tend to be d.a. and not put up with much from other dogs.
          • hi i dont know i f u have other dogs..if u  cao is not recommended..but in any case many breed has a dominant temperaemnt with other dogs..u have to decide..try a maremma that can live with others..how many "friends" u have?

            • Sounds simple enough but that is a difficult choice. Can you tell us a little bit about the climate, space available, and whether the dog will be outside, inside, or both? Do you prefer long coat, short coat, mastiff type or mountain preference? Just how much dog (size) can you handle safely? What is your desire for "health" and visits to the vet?

               

              The environmental consideration if a factor that we must consider before making a recommendation. There are several great molossers that could do the job but I would need more details before making a recommendation. The Maremma and CAO already mentioned are great guardians that could work for you.

               

              I am looking for a serious protection dog. A large dog. I want a large dog for the intimidating factor which is hopefully enough to deter. beyond that, I want a dog that if you do make the mistake of coming into the yard the dog is going to fully engage. not just jump around and bark or nip.

               

              I don't want a dog that someone would be able to befriend. by coming by and feeding it all the time for example.

              •  

                Sounds simple enough but that is a difficult choice. Can you tell us a little bit about the climate, space available, and whether the dog will be outside, inside, or both? Do you prefer long coat, short coat, mastiff type or mountain preference? Just how much dog (size) can you handle safely? What is your desire for "health" and visits to the vet?

                 

                The environmental consideration if a factor that we must consider before making a recommendation. There are several great molossers that could do the job but I would need more details before making a recommendation. The Maremma and CAO already mentioned are great guardians that could work for you.

                 

                Great Questions..also how much experience do you have with a dog of this ability..( Forgive me no insult intended I have been away from boards a while ) You have to be VERY careful what you ask for because if you have kids and they have friends they will "fight" and tell at each other..a really "on" dog may not be  a wise choice. And remember even a great dog can be "had" by multiple humans..no matter what anyone thinks I have had multiple dogs on my lot  have every trick tried on them food thrown over fence ..females in heat..fence fighters..all dogs respond to each differently but having more than one dog kept all of them safe as well as my stuffA really good video system in PLAIN sight really helps.

                • land will be at least 1 acre. climate will be 100+ in the summer, winter can get to 32 degrees or slightly below but not much worse then that.

                   

                  I would prefer a short coat dog. dog will be outside. would like a strong healthy dog that will require minimal vet visits.

                   

                  I dont want to spend a whole lot of money for the dog either. may consider rescuing as well.

                   

                  dont want an already trained dog as i believe if I can befriend it and make it protect me, so can someone else. That is a very important aspect to me, I dont want a dog that if someone is nice to him and feed him will become his friend. this is where 2 of my 3 current dogs fall short. 1 of them is a total goofball and offers no protection at all. One will protect but he is capable of being befriended. And my female will protect and is not capable of being befriended. That is how I expect the dog to be.

                   

                  at the end of the day 3 pitbulls plus any type of guard dog running around a yard is enough to deter, but I want a dog that will engage. Say for example if my dogs are tied up, and someone is in my yard. If i release the dog, I want the dog to fully engage, not just chase and bark the guy out of my yard.

                   

                  as for type, i dont have my mind set on a type. I would like one to complement the pack. I like large dogs like the presa and the boerboel, but at the same time I also like the doberman.

                   

                  my 3 current dogs

                   

                  first pic is my male, he can deter, but is a total goof and offers no protection and is everyone's new best friend.

                   

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                  2nd pic is my male, he can deter and protect, but he is capable of being befriended.

                   

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                  3rd pic is my female, she will protect and deter and not capable of being befriended.

                   

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                  • Nice group of dogs. If you want a dog short haired not easy to befriend , BASICALLY a ONE family dog..don't plan on a lot of vistors and get to gethers than a real Fila may be just the dog for you..They come into their own around 22- 30 months and that is when MOST "turn on"

                     

                    I had a wonderful mix of a NEO/CC that was just what you wanted  2 brothers both rescues

                     

                    A real SAB I saw was also very good but again one family only.

                     

                    I had a Painter AM Bulldog /CC Mix that was the only dog I ever put down because he was to man agressive ( after trying everything I knew and other trainers knew including trying a pack) He would have killed CM and or VS  because he was slick acted docile than bam he got you and worst when he got you never let go..SOB To this day I swear he was wired wrong.

                     

                    I am sure others will have lots more but if your lucky enough to find a Fila oe SAB young at rescue both would be hard to beat.

                    • HOw are you planning of keeping your American Bullies and the Guard dog together? I don't think that's going to work at all..

                       

                      No offense but you don't want to spend much money on the dog but what about the cost of training classes. You simply can't tie the dog in the backyard and expect a world class personal protection dog without any real training. Also, with a large breed you can run into a lot of health issues if you don't find a breeder that health tests. So at the end you get what you paid for.

                      • New dog should be young and if introduced correctly should have no issues with those dogs, he will be a pack member , there will be issues as he/she gets older but nothing that should not be controlled.

                        As far as getting what you pay for , you are correct if you KNOW what to look for. I have had many many dogs but if someone asked me to buy a quality CAO I would have to do research and DEPEND on  people here for guidance because I don't have a clue with breed lines or anything..I do know what i like but what I like and what is correct may not be one and the same.

                        That being said I have rescued some OUTSTANDING dogs I have gotten two dogs that  owners paid over 3000.00 for because they "required constant attention" and " Condo association said dog barked to much" I tell you bring a couple 50lb bags to shelters and don't be afraid to clean some poop and you would be amazed at what gets turned in. They know I take every big "problem" dog so sometimes u can get lucky

                        • I would be glad to help you if I could, but if you are looking for a very large dog...well...I probably couldn't deliver there since my dogs seldom go over 120#. If I was looking for a dog that fit your description, I would contact David Ishi at Midgard Mastiffs.

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                            Sounds simple enough but that is a difficult choice. Can you tell us a little bit about the climate, space available, and whether the dog will be outside, inside, or both? Do you prefer long coat, short coat, mastiff type or mountain preference? Just how much dog (size) can you handle safely? What is your desire for "health" and visits to the vet?

                             

                            The environmental consideration if a factor that we must consider before making a recommendation. There are several great molossers that could do the job but I would need more details before making a recommendation. The Maremma and CAO already mentioned are great guardians that could work for you.

                             

                            Great Questions..also how much experience do you have with a dog of this ability..( Forgive me no insult intended I have been away from boards a while ) You have to be VERY careful what you ask for because if you have kids and they have friends they will "fight" and tell at each other..a really "on" dog may not be  a wise choice. And remember even a great dog can be "had" by multiple humans..no matter what anyone thinks I have had multiple dogs on my lot  have every trick tried on them food thrown over fence ..females in heat..fence fighters..all dogs respond to each differently but having more than one dog kept all of them safe as well as my stuffA really good video system in PLAIN sight really helps.

                            The CAO and the fila has crossed my mind as well.

                             

                            "He would have killed CM and or VS" whats a cm and vs? what is a sab?

                             

                            My experience with guardian type dogs would be with my bullies and pibulls I have had over the years.

                             

                            I know what you mean by a really on dog may misinterpret play as a attack. A responsible dog owner would not have a really "on" dog loose while children are playing. Even if they were supervised and only an idiot would have children playing unsupervised with the dog out. I dont have kids though.

                             

                            anyways, I am just looking for suggestions to look at and point me in the right direction. once i make a decision on what dog I "think" I want, I am going to take the time to become educated on the breed etc.  Im not going to just run out and go blindly buy a fila or something.

                             

                            lee your dogs have crossed my mind as well. I like tate a lot.

                             

                            like I said before I am kind of torn as to what type of dog I would like to get, more of a mastiff type or maybe a leaner dog. its a trade off of speed over power. But what good is power if the guy is able to jump the fence before the dog catches him.  so then I think since i have a large powerfull dog already sometimes i think a faster dog may be a better choice. I have also thought about breeding my male to a great dane. once i get my house i may think my 3 dogs are enough and change my mind but really my 3 dogs only turns into 1 as 1 is a goof and my females legs are messed up. so that just leaves my largest male to do the job.

                             

                             

                             

                             

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                              HOw are you planning of keeping your American Bullies and the Guard dog together? I don't think that's going to work at all..

                               

                              No offense but you don't want to spend much money on the dog but what about the cost of training classes. You simply can't tie the dog in the backyard and expect a world class personal protection dog without any real training. Also, with a large breed you can run into a lot of health issues if you don't find a breeder that health tests. So at the end you get what you paid for.

                              planning on getting a female, my 2 boys will get along fine. the tuff part will be my female, but she is indoor 90% of the time due to her legs.

                               

                              obviously without any training a dog is not going to display the protection ability of a well trained police k9 for example.

                               

                              • If you keep your existing female indoors it would be easier. You might also have to fix your males because when the female guard dog goes into heat the males will fight over her. The other problem is that if you get a leaner more athletic female than your Bullies, you might run into the scenario when the dog hops the fence lol

                                 

                                I am currently pet sitting a lab x sight hound cross female and that dog is freaking insanely athletic, she can jump so damn high. I have a 6 foot fence all around my property and I am 100% sure that if I had a regular fence she would be a goner if she saw something she was interested in. Meanwhile my Bully has a lot of explosive power and strength but he is no where near her jumping ability.

                                 

                                You can also try to cross your Bully but I wouldn't do it unless I health tested both parents completely. The good thing is that you know your dog's temperament so you can sort of get an idea of what he can bring to the table. But Bullies are pretty unhealthy animals under the hood even in the exterior they look big and muscular.

                                • SAB  means South African Boerboels a wondeful dog , VERY hard to find good ones true to type.

                                   

                                  CM and VS are Caesar Milan and Victoria Stillwell TV dog experts

                                   

                                  Unless your trespassers are Olympic runners most dogs will  have them within 75 yards.

                                   

                                  Since you are a loner (no Kids) if you did not state you wanted a short haired dog, the best watchdog, thief catcher I ever owned was a wolf hybrid ..VERY VERY smart and 100% serious about guarding IT"S Property, I got mine as a rescue about 2years old and it took about a month to get him with other dogs w/o drama .( always had to be fed by himself), It actually problem solved which meant keeping it in my lot was a challenge but boy was he a stealthy sob..he actually let other dogs bark at guys and sneak up behind then and almost always nailed their hamstrings  to drop them kinda freaky but effective.

                                   

                                  Lee's dogs are great also, you just won't find his dogs at shelters.

                                  • I dont mind spending a few hundred dollars for a dog but i dont want to spend thousands for a DDB. I think if I would have raised my dogs differently they may be a bit more protective. I have been looking at rescuing, petfinder.com has just about every breed of dog you could ever want. Still not 100% on adding another dog though. Will make final decision once I get my house etc.

                                    • Pit bulls or Bullies weren't bred for protection so the only way to make them protective is to not socialize them.  So they will be fearful of everything and aggressive to anything that they are uncomfortable with. Even the APBT standard calls to euthanize any dog that shows unprovoked human aggression.

                                       

                                      I think you should do your home work and find a breed that was developed for that job.

                                      • thanks for telling me something I already know. everything you just said I am already aware of. I am sure everyone on this forum is already aware of that, as its pretty much common knowledge if you know half of anything about dogs.

                                         

                                        That being said there are plenty of bullies and pitbulls that are used for protection.

                                         

                                        Seriously?? pitbulls and bullies cant be used for protection?

                                         

                                        I think you should do your homework.

                                         

                                        and for the record, when I speak of bullies, i mean the ones that have been outcrossed to mastiffs etc, not the little english bulldog crossed ones. Take the ICK bullies for example, well known that their dogs have a high influence of Presa, know a pitbull x presa or bully x presa is not capable of protection?

                                         

                                        I completely disagree with this statement

                                         

                                        "the only way to make them protective is to not socialize them.  So they will be fearful of everything and aggressive to anything that they are uncomfortable with."

                                        •  

                                          SAB  means South African Boerboels a wondeful dog , VERY hard to find good ones true to type.

                                           

                                          CM and VS are Caesar Milan and Victoria Stillwell TV dog experts

                                           

                                          Unless your trespassers are Olympic runners most dogs will  have them within 75 yards.

                                           

                                          Since you are a loner (no Kids) if you did not state you wanted a short haired dog, the best watchdog, thief catcher I ever owned was a wolf hybrid ..VERY VERY smart and 100% serious about guarding IT"S Property, I got mine as a rescue about 2years old and it took about a month to get him with other dogs w/o drama .( always had to be fed by himself), It actually problem solved which meant keeping it in my lot was a challenge but boy was he a stealthy sob..he actually let other dogs bark at guys and sneak up behind then and almost always nailed their hamstrings  to drop them kinda freaky but effective.

                                           

                                          Lee's dogs are great also, you just won't find his dogs at shelters.

                                          theres a girl at my work whos dad breeds wolf hybrids, and sells them for pretty cheap too. I always thought it would be cool to have one but I doubt I would ever get one.

                                          • "the only way to make them protective is to not socialize them.  So they will be fearful of everything and aggressive to anything that they are uncomfortable with."
                                            as I said earlier I disagree with this statement.
                                            My friend has 2 pitbulls/bullies..whatever you want to call them, one is more bully and one is more true to type adba. The dogs have been raised well with nothing but love etc. They have not been trained for protection. They are well socialized. They can be around strangers, kids, etc. They are not overly aggressive or the type of dog that if it gets loose is going to bite some kid or something as they werent raised like that.
                                            some one went into my friends yard trying to steal stuff, and these dogs attacked the guy. My friend came out and called his dogs off and the guy ran off. He wasnt seriously hurt(that we know of) but he did leave a blood trail. The dogs are untrained and did engage.
                                            1st pic is of his bully
                                            2nd pic is his more true apbt.
                                            •  

                                              theres a girl at my work whos dad breeds wolf hybrids, and sells them for pretty cheap too. I always thought it would be cool to have one but I doubt I would ever get one.

                                              I would think twice about getting one.  They are very intense animals and require some special handling. Our member Paco, is experienced with wolf hybrids and can probably tell you more.

                                              • @ cawkazn, Actually David was correct as a general statement.

                                                Sure there are dogs that Will react in any breed, but I would not tell someone to purchase a pit IF they were looking for a property guardian just like I wouldn't tell a person to buy a bichon for a field trial dog. Yes, Bully's have other blood mixed in to them, but again it's finding the right dogs to get a pup from which can tend to get tricky...Since most bully's are not used for working purposes.

                                                There are MANY protection/guardian breeds out there (Which is Super Cool if you ask me), you will have the best luck looking into one of those. But again buying a pup within those breeds will not guarantee a good protector either!

                                                Wolf hybrid's are all over the place too, I would be careful trying to add a partially wild animal to your pack. Those type of animals NEED lots of hands on work and experience to ever have them turn out.

                                                What will get you a decent dog is doing your research and finding a breeder who breeds towards harder temperament dogs, who can show you proof of such and can offer assistance to you as your dog matures. You can always adopt, but again hard to say what is behind the dog to ever know if it will cur out on you.

                                                 

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                                                  I have done my homework and this is why I am telling you this lol Look at the APBT standard and you will clearly see that unprovoked human aggression and fault and warrants the dog to be put to sleep. Talk to any reputable American Pit Bull Terrier breeder and they will tell you the same thing I am telling you. Now in the hood you will find people breeding mutts and all sorts of unstable dogs that they perceive as being protective when they are clearly not APBT or Protective.

                                                   

                                                  The whole my friend's dogs did this or that is inconclusive data. If you told me your buddy's bullies were temperament tested and they passed then that's a different story. My chihuahuas will growl like lions if you come in my house but I highly doubt they will continue to engage if they have REAL pressure put on them.

                                                   

                                                  Most guardian breeds are super territorial and just the thought of a stranger in the home will piss them off. Watch a SPCA raid and how easily the cops take the fighting dogs off their chain. Have the same scenario happen with a Rottie or a Presa and the outcome wouldn't be the same.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  thanks for telling me something I already know. everything you just said I am already aware of. I am sure everyone on this forum is already aware of that, as its pretty much common knowledge if you know half of anything about dogs.

                                                   

                                                  That being said there are plenty of bullies and pitbulls that are used for protection.

                                                   

                                                  Seriously?? pitbulls and bullies cant be used for protection?

                                                   

                                                  I think you should do your homework.

                                                   

                                                  and for the record, when I speak of bullies, i mean the ones that have been outcrossed to mastiffs etc, not the little english bulldog crossed ones. Take the ICK bullies for example, well known that their dogs have a high influence of Presa, know a pitbull x presa or bully x presa is not capable of protection?

                                                   

                                                  I completely disagree with this statement

                                                   

                                                  "the only way to make them protective is to not socialize them.  So they will be fearful of everything and aggressive to anything that they are uncomfortable with."

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  • "I have done my homework and this is why I am telling you this lol Look at the APBT standard and you will clearly see that unprovoked human aggression and fault and warrants the dog to be put to sleep. Talk to any reputable American Pit Bull Terrier breeder and they will tell you the same thing I am telling you"

                                                     

                                                    I am well aware of what you are "telling" me. It is not new news to me. and the reason for what you are "telling" me is so that handlers didnt get bit by the dogs in the pit. Well aware of this already buddy so you are not educating me or telling me anything I didnt already know. You have done your homework by reading and quoting the breed standard. thats great.

                                                     

                                                    that being said, I understand the point you are trying to make but that breed standard is on paper and there are many dogs that do meet that standard. but the thing is the pitbull has been so overbred and crossed to so many different breeds, yet its still called a pitbull.

                                                     

                                                    "The whole my friend's dogs did this or that is inconclusive data"

                                                     

                                                    I know what I have read on paper, and I know what I have seen in real life. Now what I have seen in real life is more conclusive data to me then what I have read on paper. What I do know is that my friends dogs engaged with no training. They were protecting their territory. They are territorial. Is a guardian breed more territorial and going to make a better protection dog...sure. But to totally discount a "pitbull" or bully IMO is stupid. my friends dogs are untrained, had he spent the time money and effort into properly training them Im sure they could make good dogs. Im not saying they would do the job better then any other dogs. But they are definitely capable of doing protection work. sure theres dogs better suited for the job

                                                     

                                                    granted there are not a whole lot of pure gamebred apbt around me and that is why most of the dogs I come across dont display that true to type breed standard temperment.

                                                     

                                                    and you actually took the words right out of my mouth, if you walk around the ghetto, everyone has a pitbull, and most of them are mean as shit and will bite the hell out of you if given the chance, specifically if you go into their yard. But I wouldnt say thats because the dogs have been unsocialized I would think it would do more to encouraging aggressive behavior.

                                                     

                                                    the point that I am trying to make is that the pitbull or bully can do protection work. not that its the best dog for the job, or that the APBT standard you quoted is incorrect. Just that I think there are alot more dogs ( or at least in my area) that dont fit that standard.

                                                     

                                                    if you are trying to say there are better dogs for the job. i agree.

                                                     

                                                    if you are saying they cant do it, i disagree....your not an idiot so I am sure that you are aware that there are plenty of trained protection apbt out there. A simple youtube search will show plenty of vids of apbt and protection training, some good, some not so good but the point is they can do it.

                                                     

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                                                      I am well aware of what you are "telling" me. It is not new news to me. and the reason for what you are "telling" me is so that handlers didnt get bit by the dogs in the pit. Well aware of this already buddy so you are not educating me or telling me anything I didnt already know. You have done your homework by reading and quoting the breed standard. thats great.

                                                       

                                                      that being said, I understand the point you are trying to make but that breed standard is on paper and there are many dogs that do meet that standard. but the thing is the pitbull has been so overbred and crossed to so many different breeds, yet its still called a pitbull.

                                                       

                                                      A legit breeder will only breed by the standard and this is what you do not understand. A backyard breeder that adds Presa blood or Mastiff blood to their dog can call it whatever they want but it is not an American Pit Bull Terrier any longer. There is only one American Pit Bull Terrier and the rest are mutts or American Bullies. If you tell me you want a scatterbred Bully to possibly serve as guardian dog then that makes more sense. But there is no guarantee it can do the job, since there is no consistency in the breeding so it's a 50/50 shot. Also the people calling a mutt a pit bull are uneducated and they ruin the reputation of the real breed.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      I know what I have read on paper, and I know what I have seen in real life. Now what I have seen in real life is more conclusive data to me then what I have read on paper. What I do know is that my friends dogs engaged with no training. They were protecting their territory. They are territorial. Is a guardian breed more territorial and going to make a better protection dog...sure. But to totally discount a "pitbull" or bully IMO is stupid. my friends dogs are untrained, had he spent the time money and effort into properly training them Im sure they could make good dogs. Im not saying they would do the job better then any other dogs. But they are definitely capable of doing protection work. sure theres dogs better suited for the job

                                                       

                                                      I think you have read enough on these sites to know that a dog acting tough behind a fence is not a guard dog, a dog is only proven to be a solid protector when it has continued to engage after it has been damaged. Your friends Bullies can probably bite someone, but they have never been tested against someone with real bad intentions that wants to kill the dogs to get to their owners. Or that wants to kill the dogs to steal in the property. It is fair to say there is a whole lot more to protection than just biting and bluffing.

                                                       

                                                      granted there are not a whole lot of pure gamebred apbt around me and that is why most of the dogs I come across dont display that true to type breed standard temperment.

                                                       

                                                      Mutts will display various traits just like a dog out of a purebred liter, that is why responsible breeder will cull the dog's that do not fit the standard. Someone that knows the breed characteristics will not continue to breed a dog that will disservice the breed.

                                                       

                                                      and you actually took the words right out of my mouth, if you walk around the ghetto, everyone has a pitbull, and most of them are mean as shit and will bite the hell out of you if given the chance, specifically if you go into their yard. But I wouldnt say thats because the dogs have been unsocialized I would think it would do more to encouraging aggressive behavior.

                                                       

                                                      How can you encourage aggression towards the public and socialize your dog at the same time? You are contradicting your self, for example people with real guarding breeds over socialize their dogs so their dogs will act proper and public and in the moment of a real attack they will know who is the evil guy.

                                                       


                                                      Ghetto dudes keep their dogs in their backyard isolated while the dog is growing so anything that walks near the property is the enemy. If a little kid broke into one of their yards guess what would happen? It not only happens with pit mutts but it happens with other breeds when their owners think isolation is the way to teach a dog distrust. I see it with labs and golden retrievers you simply walk by their fence and they are growling like they want to kill you, yet you have no done anything to threaten them.

                                                       

                                                      the point that I am trying to make is that the pitbull or bully can do protection work. not that its the best dog for the job, or that the APBT standard you quoted is incorrect. Just that I think there are alot more dogs ( or at least in my area) that dont fit that standard.

                                                       

                                                      Nothing is impossible in life, but why would you take a route where the odds are against you? It sounds like you need protection so why take any chances with a breed type that may or may not work? If you get a puppy it will take you at least 3 years to find out if it can do it or not, if you ask me that's a long time to find out if the dog will suit the task.

                                                       

                                                      if you are trying to say there are better dogs for the job. i agree.

                                                       

                                                      if you are saying they cant do it, i disagree....your not an idiot so I am sure that you are aware that there are plenty of trained protection apbt out there. A simple youtube search will show plenty of vids of apbt and protection training, some good, some not so good but the point is they can do it.

                                                       

                                                      You can accomplish anything you want but like I stated already you want to make a ferrari out of a honda civic and it's not like you are doing this for a hobby or for fun. It sounds like you have a necessity to do this so why not take best route for this?

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      • i would agree with everything you said. I am aware that a responsible breeder would cull the dogs but I have not met a single person that does that. I also have not met any breeders of pure gamedogs. Everyone breeds for money, that may not be the sole purpose for some of the good breeders that do everything by the book etc. but is at least part of it. otherwise they would give the dogs away for free. But if you want one of these pure dogs etc. be prepared to cough up cash into the $1000's.

                                                         

                                                        a backyard breeder that adds presa or mastiff blood has now basically made a bandog. I could make the argument of scatter bred vs hybrid vigor. IMO some of the best dogs are crosses. just because a dog isnt pure or doesnt have papers etc.  doesnt mean it can be just as good or better then the next. Those dogs I posted got 2nd place at a weight pull and they are both strays my buddy found, so since they are strays and he found them, who knows truly what they are, but they get labled as pits as again, what esle would we call them. A mixed up mutt from the pound can be just as good as some purebreed fancy dog.

                                                         

                                                        I wish I could take a picture of this stray dog I see around here, its survival of the fittest for feral dogs and man is this guy fit, many of the feral dogs end up in the pound. I would therefore think the dogs in there although not papered would probably have good genes do to natural selection. These dogs must be smart to make it on the street though their temperment i and survivalist attitude wouldnt suit as good guard dog but add in a mix and boom (im kinda getting way off topic here)

                                                         

                                                        i agree that ppl calling mutts pitbulls ruin the breed but the pitbulls have been so overbred and mixed with so much stuff any pitbull type dog gets labeled a pitbull, what else would you call it? a bandogge i suppose.

                                                         

                                                        i know what you mean about dogs being all bark and no bite on the otherside of the fence regardless of what breed they are but if an untrained dog did engage you gotta figure he could only get better with training. now is he going to engage if you are hitting him over the head with a sledge hammer? probaly not without extensive training.

                                                         

                                                        but i would still disagree on the socialization thing, going back to my buddies dogs as an example, not the tell all be all but just to use as an example, they are well socialized and still did engage. they werent raised or display the traits you are talking about with "ghetto dudes" but I would agree there are alot of ghetto idiots that know nothing about dogs and do all types of nonsense. just go to a bully show, they know nothing about dogs at all. there are a few guys in there that know what they are doing but most are completely uneducated on the subject of dogs and breeding.

                                                         

                                                        i dont mind spending a couple hundred bucks on a dog but I dont want to go out and buy a boerboel for $1000, I just dont have that type of extra money to spend on a dog.

                                                         

                                                        I am leaning towards either rescuing, or getting a pitbull type dog from the pound after I evaluate its temperament.

                                                         

                                                        even some of those game dogs have human aggression, martys lil bit, i asked him if he would breed her and he said no because she shows human agression. He said she acts friendly and then will snap at ppl or something like that, cant remember exactly it was yrs ago.

                                                        • I am on the same boat as you, but it is even more difficult because I need to find a breed that won't go after my cats or my little dogs. I won't risk getting a big dog from a shelter because of it, specially now that I have a baby in the house.

                                                           

                                                          Talk to breeders that work protection dogs and ask about their temperaments, Lees dogs aren't that expensive I have also seen other working boards where the dogs are under a grand.

                                                          • how about a livestock guardian breed dog?

                                                            • I thought we would get around to this eventually. Sure any LGD will be a good guardian for you.  They are dogs first, guardian second. So they not only guard livstock but anything that is inherent to there protected territory such as us humans. Consider temperature and coat type where you are and choose accordingly.  If this is your first LGD you may want to dial back their "protectiveness" by getting one from a non-working line.  Not many people can handle a full fledged working LGD because they may be too intense.

                                                              •  

                                                                I thought we would get around to this eventually. Sure any LGD will be a good guardian for you.  They are dogs first, guardian second. So they not only guard livstock but anything that is inherent to there protected territory such as us humans. Consider temperature and coat type where you are and choose accordingly.  If this is your first LGD you may want to dial back their "protectiveness" by getting one from a non-working line.  Not many people can handle a full fledged working LGD because they may be too intense.

                                                                The CAO's have relatively shorter coats than CO right?

                                                                 

                                                                What do you think about CAOs?

                                                                • i dont know much about them but have researched them a little. they are nice looking dogs. I like them and would consider owning one.

                                                                  • LMAO~And now we have come full circle folks!

                                                                     

                                                                    CAO's are not recommended for multiple dog households.

                                                                    •  

                                                                      LMAO~And now we have come full circle folks!

                                                                       

                                                                      CAO's are not recommended for multiple dog households.

                                                                       

                                                                       

                                                                      even if you got a female pup and raised it with a male?

                                                                      • I am not a black and white person, so I will not say It Could Never Happen. ~So many variables...

                                                                        Depends on the female pup and how she developes as she matures

                                                                        Your male dogs and how they act towards her~For example if they are annoying or not

                                                                        the amount of time you spend creating the bond within your pack

                                                                        training you do with her

                                                                        and lets not forget exercise

                                                                        And a job!

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        • Don't see it possible to have male dogs of such strong breeds hang out peacefully at all times, even if raised from puppyhood. The day will come when they get into it real good, and that is when the vet bill will be very high if the dog is still alive. Get a female better.

                                                                          • yeah im definitely getting a female if i do get another dog.

                                                                            • I would also cross the presa off your list. Occasionally, you might find a female that will tolerate another dog or another female, but you can't count on it.

                                                                              • you mean a presa female tolerating another female. not just tolerating another dog. generally speaking, most dogs should do ok with dogs of the opposite sex if raised together. With the exception being game apbt. I have 2 unaltered males that get along which is not typical.

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                •  

                                                                                  you mean a presa female tolerating another female. not just tolerating another dog. generally speaking, most dogs should do ok with dogs of the opposite sex if raised together. With the exception being game apbt. I have 2 unaltered males that get along which is not typical.

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I doubt you want to take your chances with a Presa, I have talked to breeders from Spain that do not recommend it. You own pet bulls so this is why they get along.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Look at breeds that were designed to work in packs and living with other animals. Look for function first then start looking for the look you want.

                                                                                  • so what you guys are saying is that a if i had a presa female puppy, and a presa male puppy, from the same litter lets say, and I raised them together, they would not get along? I find that hard to believe. that is an extreme amount of dog agression, and the only dogs I have ever heard of that wouldnt get along in such a scenario is game bred apbts. from everything i have read about the presa there hasnt been any mention of that high of a level of DA

                                                                                    •  

                                                                                      yeah im definitely getting a female if i do get another dog.

                                                                                      Don't forget that in some breeds (Caucasian, Central Asian) the females have the more traditional role of being the aggressors.  So, when you say you are getting a female don't let that lull you into thinking they are easier to handle than the males. They are somewhat smaller but still very large and prone to being very defensive.  Of the 4 COs I raised the two females were the most aggressive and "unpredictably predictable." I think traditionally the females are the first to engage and then the big males are the ones to finish the job.  So, please check out the CO and CAO forums and the breed profiles closely before considering one.  Do a self inventory and see if you really need that kind of protection. If you still want one then go for it and get ready for a new experience.  Best of luck.

                                                                                      • I COMPLETELY agree with Admin here, its also the same with Neapolitans. Boys are typically easier to deal with then the females, females also mature quicker.

                                                                                        People always want to get males because they are typically flashier....But not always the best choice, imo.

                                                                                        • Have you thought of getting aq Donovan Pinsher? A female will not be huge, maybe 80lbs or so, but real intense and nice protection instinct! I also love the athletism of that breed!!

                                                                                          • donovan pincher are cool dogs, i have read a bit about them years ago.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            i think there is some confusion on my statement for getting a female.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            I plan on getting a female so that my male will get along with her. one of my male is DA with other males. He gets along ok with my other male he was raised with but hes DA with other males. actually all of my dogs have gotten into it with eachother at one point, even female vs male,  but they all get along pretty good for the most part.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            I would say out of all my dogs, my female is the most aggressive.

                                                                                            • Hi,

                                                                                               

                                                                                              From what you wrote at the beginning, you are not looking for an intimidating dog but for the "real deal".

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Suspicious against all strangers, not permitting familiarities, bring an intruder on his knee on the stpot, not just speaking to him, trying to make up his mind if he is going to make friends or to bite him.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              If you think like this then you think like me.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Before I propose you the breeds I would choose from, a friendly advice, make sure no innocent will be in danger and that is a great responsibility, you always have to be not one but 10 steps before your dog's decision and reaction, you have to take all these measures for the public safety (as solid fence etc).

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Now if you are ready for such a dog, the payback will be a lot beyond you expectations.

                                                                                               

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Try to find a breeder that do not participate in shows (if possible), testing all his dogs for character, tell him exactly what you expect from the dog as an adult and that is going work for serious guarding, NOT GUARDING SIMULATION, study the pedigree and try to identify ancestors with sharp temperament background,  …and choose from:

                                                                                               

                                                                                              -Caucasian Ovcharka

                                                                                               

                                                                                              -Boerboel

                                                                                               

                                                                                              -Fila brasileiro

                                                                                               

                                                                                              -Presa canario

                                                                                               

                                                                                              I own a 7 years old Boerboel and a 4+1/2 months old Caucasian Ovcharka.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              In the past I use to own lots of different so called guarding breeds, so I can compare.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Buy a puppy like this, out of these breeds and come back to speak with me in a year, I more than sure that you will have many things to tell me about serious guarding.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              No matter what breed you choose, to my opinion keep one think in mind alltime.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Do exactly the opposite of what guard breeds DESTROYERS suggest all the time, “early thorough socialization…, etc”

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Do not listen to these craps (oooops sorry),

                                                                                              FCI (at least here in Europe) has manage with the socialization "marshmallow" to DESTROY so many breeds in few decates, wonderful once upon a time, breeds like GSD, Doberman, Rotties, etc. OF COURSE FOR THE SAKE OF SALES, ALWAYS.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Now is trying to corrupt the breeds as above mentioned, writing in standards re. character/temperament things like, …should posses a calm disposition, …but when need be, etc bull sh@@ts .

                                                                                              But it is not FCI's data that formed the character of these dogs, it was for thousand years the field of the battle with 2 or 4 leggs predators and no FCI should be given the right to destroy it, for the sake of sales.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Of course always they use the tremendous name of ancestors of the breed, ...implying that the useless mongrels they sell, is something like that.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              No THERE is NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL!!!

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Does anyone ever asked how use to be Horan ? temperament wise? How Mr. Stefanitz achived to get this temperament and what type of dogs he used?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              What were the last words of Mr. Stefanintz before he died in his friend arms?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Very few I suppose.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              But we all know how beautiful is the nowadays golden black GSD, with its slope to map the floor, right?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Just for the record, Mr. Stefanintz was the forefather/creator of GSD breed and Horan was his dog, first officially recognized as GSD.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Horan would have been disqualified in a show as non GSD, with the its straight back, its angles and its grey sable colour, HORAN THE FOREFATHER OF ALL GSD WOULD HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFIED, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?

                                                                                              Horan would hesitate not even for a fraction of a second to bite hard and give terrible fight, anyone caming close to its home or to its master, WHAT ABOUT NOWADAYS AVERAGE GSD?????????????????????????????????????????????

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Everyone has the right to create a breed, BUT NONE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE SOMEBODY ELSE’S BREED, do whatever you want but for God’s sake do not name it German Shepherd!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                               

                                                                                               

                                                                                              If you try to find out Mr. Stefanintz’s perception about early socialization of the puppy and working guarding ability, you will be amazed how different it was than FCI’s one, rather closer to Brazilian CAFIB breeders, to what they call it “OZERIZA” (HATE OF STRANGERS LOVE FOR THE FAMILY)

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Would you like to discuss Mr. Dobberman’s opinion about socialization crap (sorry again) and what it takes to get a decent guard dog?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              For sure NO SOCIALIZATION.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Do we all know how Mr. Stefanintz’s and how Mr. Dobberman’s dogs pitifully ended up nowadays?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Did these people ever give the authorization to anybody to change the character of THEIR breed?

                                                                                               

                                                                                               

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Of course you socialize a puppy with its environment, dogs and cats (you don’t want it to go after them as an adult if possible, the target should be the stranger) but to my opinion it’s forbidden, to let any strange offensive hand to pet, your future guard dog's head.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              How can you expect learning a puppy to love people, to turn against them later on?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              There is NO SWITCH BUTTON here, just use common sense and logic.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Because that’s the job of a serious working guard dog, or you are after mediocre results in a best case scenario !!!

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Of course there is another way to do it,

                                                                                              …training, BY PAYING FEW THOUSAN DOLLARS ONLY and to my opinion, it will take a very good trainer to teach the the dog TO GET BACK, WHAT YOU FORCE IT TO LOOSE WITH THE SOCIALIZATION,

                                                                                               

                                                                                               namely to get as suspicious against stranger as it would be by its own in first place, by hart, by instinct if you HAD NOT SPOIL DOG WITH THE SOCIALIZATION CRAP (Sorry again)

                                                                                               

                                                                                              This is only my opinion

                                                                                               

                                                                                              PS. I am getting angry when I hear people speaking for watered down, filas or Caucasians etc, (FCI and bussinessmen work hard to this direction and they presented already destroyed dogs) with the argument that the sharp ones do not fit in a civilized society.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              THEY NEVER ANSWER TO ME BACK, WHEN I ASKED HOW COME THE CRIMINALS FIT ALL RIGHT IN THE CIVILIZED SOCIETY?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

                                                                                               

                                                                                              …fitting BETTER for exhibitions/shows AND MAKE MONEY, IS THE REAL REAZON BEHIND IT.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              • Having trained multiple dogs and worked with one of the best trainers in the united states (who trains all types of service dogs) I would Strongly recommend not listening to the above advice. 

                                                                                                Socializing is Very important!!

                                                                                                Having your dog understand the difference of a bad guy and a young child, Very Important.

                                                                                                Also I know many breeders (Me included) that show dogs but breed towards the traditional type, it's spending the time researching and finding the Right breeder

                                                                                                FOR YOU.  

                                                                                                •  

                                                                                                  Having multiple dogs, non socialized at all with humans (exempt the family members), I can guarantee, when we speak for a proper breed and proper breeding, that will develop in superior guard dogs.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  I highly recommend listening to this advice and more than highly I recommend NOT to listen advises striving for socialization if you are interested of having a real guard dog.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  I would also suggest, if you have and if you want to spend a serious amount of money, to train your dog ONLY for realistic protection and guarding with a serious trainer, which he will tell you after a test to save your money if the dog doesn’t have the proper instincts, drives and traits.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  This kind of training is useful and worth the last penny, if a responsible professional trainer involves with it.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Avoid training methods like schutzhound and the likes (ARE GREAT FOR SPORT AND FITNESS BUT NOT FOR REAL GUARDING AND PROTECTION), which teach your dog that the best friend next to his master is the agitator when PLAYING with a sleeve. Meeting the one agitator after the other you don’t have to be genius to understand what happens.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  In realistic training the dog perceives the agitator as an enemy and not as a friend.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                    Why many merchants they recommend …socialization?

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  1.       When your dog becomes completely stupid (guarding wise) because of the unacceptable socialization,  they have a good reason to take a small fortune from you that you needed a guard dog in first place. Now has to be trained in order to do what was designed to do for thousands of years without training.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                   JUST BECAUSE THEY MADE YOU TO PUT YOUR DOG’S INSTICTS AND ABILITIES TO SLEEP, they made you destroy your guard dog, due to socialization and now they tell you, THAT YOUR DOG HAS TO BE TRAINED TO WAKE UP HIS INSTICTTS AND ABILITIES and be able to do, what would have done, avoiding socialization, IN FIRST PLACE WITH NO COST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                                  (to be continued...)

                                                                                                  •  

                                                                                                    …continuation

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    2.       One should be extremely suspicious, when hearing tricks like, …for the public safety, …bla-bla-bla,  …may become dangerous for you and your family, bla, bla,bla, …the dog should  tell the difference of a bad guy and a good guy or a young child, etc.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    ONCE AGAIN HERE, …BE EXTREMELY SUSPICIOUS, my opinion is that the person that is claiming so, either is an ignorant, OR HAS A GOOD REASON FOR IT (very often has to do with money, … as always)

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    My personal experience among million others (and according to what happened from the day A when the first man domesticated a wolf as guardian, until nowadays, ‘SOCIALIZATION’ days) is that all dogs I had them socialized with humans, THEY BECAME CRAP GUARD DOGS, all dogs I never socialized them with humans, but my family members rated from very good to excellent guard dogs and protectors.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    My personal experience (millions others as well) is that whenever I visited a house with socialized guard dogs (no training included here), I NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEM TO BRAKE IN TO THE HOUSE, in most cases I just had to lower my hand and let the ‘guard’ dog to smell it, seconds ago he was about to kill me and now just turned its belly scratching ha,ha,ha, SO EASY TO DECIVE THE SOCIALIZED CRAP DOGS!!!!!!

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    THE COMMON LOGIC SUGGEST, THAT SOCIALIZATION IS INVERSE TO GUARDING AND PROTECTION,

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     THE GUARD DOG IS MOTIVATED TO GUARD EXACTLY BECAUSE OF ITS INHERITED AVERTION TO STRANGER AND NOT BECAUSE OF ITS LOVE TOWARDS HIM,

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     THE BEST WAY TO BRAKE THIS AVERTION IS TO ….???? ….(YES WELL GUESSED), …TO SOCIALIZE.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    One, only need common sense and responsibility, a solid fence, a cage during visitations, a proper dog AND ABSOLUTELLY NO SUSPITION OF SOCIALIZATION, but the family members,  if he really means to have a real guard dog AND NOT SIMULATION OF GUARD DOG CRAP!!!

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    IF he has money to spend and only under realistic training he can take his guard dog to the next superior level, but he already gets a serious guard WITH THE NON SOCIALIZATION RECIPE, THE BEST AND FASTEST WAY TO DESTROY A DOG, EVEN WITH ENORMOUS GUARDING POTENTIALS IS TO SOCIALIZE THIS DOG.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Also I can verify among million others, that I never had an accident with me, or my family members with any of my UNSOCIALIZED dogs, THEY KNOW WHO TO BITE AND WHO TO LOVE, because is as simple as it can be for a dog, my family AND THE OTHERS!!!!!

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    When you cross this level, all scenarios are possible to happen.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    NO DOG EVER GRATUADED ANY PSYCOLOGY UNIVERSITY TO JUDGE EACH STRANGER AND EVERY SITUATION.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    That’s why there still is on utube the video with the police k9 german shepherd, tearing the face of the journalist during an interview with the officer hander present.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                               By stating later on that he is so sorry about it, he did not improve the face of the journalist.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    The best way to avoid such accidents is never to bring in contact your guard dog to anyone but your family members, this way you also protect the guarding ability of your dog for not to spoiled due to meeting a stranger, FOR A REAL GUARD DOG SHOULD BE CONSIDER ANYONE BUT HIS IMMEDIATE FAMILY.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    I can also confirm that my best man every now and then, he does have lots minor and couple major problems with his kids and his wife due to his well socialized well trained at level III schuzthount  “guard” dog, for which recently he confessed,  that it is not capable for guarding(haha guard dogs not capable for …guarding this is what socialized dogs are), after watching me trespassing his yard and his well socialized crap guard dog, barking fiercely at the beginning, then after lower my hand and speak really smooth to him, pulling its ears back, lower his tail, letting me in and offering his belly for scratching, hahaha, it was just  so hilarious.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Obviously dogs like this-socialized ones, they don’t know who to bite, he has bitten his wife his kids and let me into his property, which I could have been a burglar or any criminal and the dog start licking me to …death, that was the only dangerous sign out of this well socialized crap guard dog.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    My UNSOCIALIZED dogs will just take any kind of abuse from my kids wagging their tails from the other side my best man when he visit us and the dogs are already caged HE INSIST to pass him from the yard because he is afraid that the dogs will brake the …IRON CAGE!!!

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    I HAVE TO STATE HERE THOUGH THAT MY DOGS ARE EXTREMELLY WELL SOCIALIZED WITH ALL FAMILY MEMBERS (AND ONLY THEM) FROM PUPPYHOOD AND I CONSIDER IT AS A MUST FOR KEEPING REAL GUARD DOGS INTO YOUR HOME.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Of course there are socialized dogs perfect family pets and of course some socialized dogs can become good guard dogs but here is the point.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    You socialize your dog if it supposed to be a pet but if you intent to use it as a guardian the logic itself commands that the possibilities to become one are extremely poor, for you deprive from the dog the most valuable equipment for the job, not the teeth BUT THE SUSPICIOUSNESS AGAINST THE STRANGER, PERIOD.

                                                                                                    to be continued...

                                                                                                    • continuation...

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      3.       Finally COMMERCIAL WISE just think when SALES ARE INCREASED?

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      How many specimen of the REAL THING can a breeder sell? FEW VERY FEW.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Taking in consideration how many people they are afraid or they cannot handle a real guard dog, or the possibility for an accident to happen with an irresponsible owner, or a weak owner BUT THE SOCIALIZED CRAP HE CAN JUST SELL IT TO ANYONE, from the little kid to the old lady.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Same time he can sell the “story” that if need be…, he will become …this, and …that, bla, bla, bla using the heavy name of the breed and keeping the fact, that the average specimen who wrote this history, had nothing to do with the average socialized watered down specimen he sells.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      4.       Who needs a real guard? Nowadays in the modern society, the common man more than ever, who says so me? No the police (FBI), statistics worldwide. My opinion is that the crime deserves of equal guard dog and unfortunately the crime in nowadays is more sophisticated and harder than ever, so should be our guard dogs. Should this analogy changes I would consider to socialize my dogs.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      5.       So, I strongly recommend NOT TAKE IN CONSIDERATION the theories for well socialized dog, if you really want to have a guard dog without paying a small fortune for training. Just do what the logic commands in accordance to what our forefathers use to do for millions of years.  I am not a specialist or even related to the field (breeder, trainer, etc), I am only guard dogs enthusiast and guard dogs owner. This is just my perspective and I am not trying to convince anybody, it is just the way I see it, this is my subjective opinion based on my experience with guard dogs, on my logic and my observations upon these dogs. I believe that my intention can be considered as objective, once I have no commercial interest out of it.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      • FCI (at least here in Europe) has manage with the socialization "marshmallow" to DESTROY so many breeds in few decates, wonderful once upon a time, breeds like GSD, Doberman, Rotties, etc. OF COURSE FOR THE SAKE OF SALES, ALWAYS.

                                                                                                         I agree.

                                                                                                        I switched from gsd to co because of the poor temperament.

                                                                                                        Of course you socialize a puppy with its environment, dogs and cats (you don’t want it to go after them as an adult if possible, the target should be the stranger) but to my opinion it’s forbidden, to let any strange offensive hand to pet, your future guard dog's head.

                                                                                                        I disagree.

                                                                                                        I raised three caucasians.  You write : any offensive hand, thats already a diffrent situation than a neighbor who pet your pup. I dont want my dog kills a neighbor who is passing by (my dog will be put to sleep very fast by the autorithy) so thats why i socialise my co. When all three passed the age of one year the agression/guarding kicks in and not one neighbor can pet them without getting biten, they are allowed to pass me on a certain distance because of the socialisation.

                                                                                                        After a year the real  co (not bred for looks or from a breeder who messed up the breed to sell more pups) is changing temoerament very much no matter socialisation or not

                                                                                                        I can only speak about the co and i think you underestimate the character of the real co.

                                                                                                        Although i have to say that i bought my dogs from russian breeders because a lot of breeders close by dont breed the co for temoerament anymore, simple people arent allowed anymore to own an agressive dog. A mellow dog is easier to sell, so yes its all about the money.

                                                                                                        Socialisation means to me: To teach my dog what is normal in my life and how i want him to react.

                                                                                                        Friends of my sonns are allowed to come in, my dog let them stand still with his body until i demand him to let go, they dont get biten. Ofcourse we have some rules no loud voices or fighting.

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