What's a mutt?
Here is a mutt...lol
I think accidental breedings of two dogs not of the same breed is a mutt.
I also think Dogs mixed for no other reason except to "teach my kids about life" are mutts too.
As a matter of fact breeding a dog for no purpose or job in mind creates
mutts.
I think accidental breedings of two dogs not of the same breed is a mutt.
I also think Dogs mixed for no other reason except to "teach my kids about life" are mutts too.
As a matter of fact breeding a dog for no purpose or job in mind creates
mutts.Replies (58)
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A corso and dogo both have a defined standard. Breed two dogo's and you are going to get a dogo. One that looks and acts like a dogo. Anything that someone has to ask- "hmmmm, wonder what they will look like" IMHO- is a mutt. And yes- a bandog is a mutt. -
Ban dogs are mutts? pff
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Yep Bandogs are mutts.
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Well .....we all have our opinions. Mutt to me is a derogatory word. I would much rather a Neo/pit of working lines than the purest of English bulldogs.
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[quote=BCofJurai]Planned or not, any mix breed is a mutt.[/quote]OK, fair enough. So how long does the offspring of those mixed strains remain a "mutt"? I mean, Doberman, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever etc all have a recorded history of having been crossbred from/with various other breeds. All mutts? Dan
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I guess pit bulls are mutts by that definition, even though they look the same since the 1800's. Dogo Argentinos, Presas, Cane, Neapolitans, and just about every dog in the world. I say this because all dogs come frome somewhere, all dogs are mixed none were created by Divine miracles.
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I agree. It's silly to think most breeds are as pure as they were at the moment of conception/recognition. Things such as a of lack of a "job" or situations such as war or famine will devastate local dog populations. This still is happening today. Revival=crossing. Which generation of a cross (for creating a new breed or reviving an old breed) would be considered a "breed" again? Many breeds today have been on "deaths door" at some point in their history. The infusion of new blood was the only way to save the breed. If still selecting for a type, or standard, would an F1 or F2 generation be that breed? Maybe further, say 50 or 100 years? Or is the race destined to forever be mutts?
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[quote=Dragonmark]I guess pit bulls are mutts by that definition, even though they look the same since the 1800's. Dogo Argentinos, Presas, Cane, Neapolitans, and just about every dog in the world. I say this because all dogs come frome somewhere, all dogs are mixed none were created by Divine miracles.[/quote] Yawn, what a tired, tired, tired argument. The sad thing is, no matter how many times it is explianed, people just don't get it, oh well. Here is the abridged version. It is a huge differance when a large group of knowledgeable fanciers get together to revive a breed and reconstruct than some yahoo taking two dogs he either got from BYB's or flat out decpetion and calling his "creation" a "breed." In most occasions it is lterally 50 or more experianced dog people with 20 plus years of breeding, genetics etc. to take on such an undertaking. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Breeds like the Saint and the JA for an example are largly reconstructed yet now and for a while breed very true to type. No one's "Bandogs" do. Anyone can take two dogs together and get puppies. Hell, I have thought about it myself. Just get a dog of type A and mate to a dog of type B and wha-la! The Tri-Valley Bulldog. Bull$hit would be more like it.
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[quote=Dragonmark]Well .....we all have our opinions. Mutt to me is a derogatory word. I would much rather a Neo/pit of working lines than the purest of English bulldogs.[/quote] First of all, I doubt you have seen many EB's of pure ENGLISH bloodlines. How many Kingrock, Ocobo, MyStyle, Outdoors etc. dogs have you seen? Secondly, ever wonder where people get their foundation stock to create "Bandogs?" How many Neo or APBT breeders worth their salt would sell a dog to someone who is UPFRONT about crossing? That leaves either BYB's or like Lucero, flat out lying about what they want the dog for. Mmmmm,,,,nice. :roll: :roll:
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I understand your point of "hack" breeders with no knowledge, and yes, I would call someone of this type a "cross" or "designer" breeder(I hate the term hybrid). I believe most will be in agreement in saying it's about the program, not the mix. From what I know of the Doberman history, only 3 people were cited as creator/co-creators. Once these men were dead, there was one man who took a pivotal role in the breed's development in the early 20th century. To me, it doesn't take that many people, I believe it could even be one breeder with a goal and well formulated plan. Facilities and resources are the main play in this. Some programs are based on one person's idea, with a few satellite breeder/helpers. Like you said it's all about knowledge and experience, but also time. Some of the "bandog" type breeders are just starting, maybe after 20 years of dedication, we'll see a "breed". IMO, the true Dogo is a breed...
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If a dog fancier responsibly breeds dogs for a purpose and the dogs breed puppies that do said job then they are what they were bred for. IE hog dogs, Curs, what ever. If they do the job intended who gives a damn if they all look exactly the same. By the way BC i have been a Veterinary Assistant for many years in rich and poor neighborhoods from NY to RI so i can say I have seen many many pure english bulldogs as well as alapahas and many others. Also I used to show My dog with Rarities and ARBA. And I have visited many kennels and learned from many game dog men so I have seen my fair share of purebreds as well as ban dogs, and even some mutts...(so many mutts!) I must admit I have never owned a ban dog but I consider my Dogo Argentino a ban dog that breeds true to type.
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Huh? A dogo has a clearly defined standard. Yes, they are a fairly recent creation. BUT- still a breed that brreds true to type. Not a mutt, nor a bandog! :roll:
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A dogo is a fighting dog and mastiff mixed, all be it long ago but still is a type of ban dog. At least thats how I see it. Like I said before I dont see a ban dog the same as a mutt.
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First of all, I doubt you have seen many EB's of pure ENGLISH bloodlines. How many Kingrock, Ocobo, MyStyle, Outdoors etc. dogs have you seen? Secondly, ever wonder where people get their foundation stock to create "Bandogs?" How many Neo or APBT breeders worth their salt would sell a dog to someone who is UPFRONT about crossing? That leaves either BYB's or like Lucero, flat out lying about what they want the dog for. Mmmmm,,,,nice. :roll: :roll:[/quote] Mr. BC To accuse a man that I highly respect and of which my dogs descend from his stock (Joe Lucero) is highly offensive! And to state that a man of his reputation would have to lie to obtain breeding stock is ridiculous! As for your comment about any breeder worth his salt would sell a specimen to someone upfront about crossing... The types of Neapolitans a reputable bandog breeder is looking for are the exact ones that should not be placed in pet homes. These specimens are of too strong a temperament to be placed with anyone not willing and extremely knowledgeable about training and handling large driven dogs. That breeder would actually be acting responsible and actually should be honored to have one of his dogs placed in such a program. It reiterates that his stock has proven working temperaments and is structurally sound! Otherwise why would the reputable bandog breeder choose one of their dogs? I understand the general blanket statements that the USNMC has stated, but this is to direct the many ignorant breeders, which is the majority of there membership. (For christ sakes they will not even allow pictures of neos doing there "JOB!" on their web site! What type of breed wardens does that imply? I'm sorry but if I have a protection breed I dang sure want to see a number of specimens still training to bite.... If they can't bite they shouldn't be called protection anything!) I have approached two or three neo breeders in the past and had to deal with the immediate rejection, but after explaining (extensively and several times asking them to let me show them) I have had the opportunity to acquire several dogs (of which the timing was not right on my end)(now this took me coming out and demo'ing my dogs, and reiterating what in fact I was doing. Improving my working dogs... of which are basically a working neo) So your statement is actually contrary to the truth. If they are reputable and knowledgeable they shouldn't have a problem at all. And one last item I would like to correct of yours… I currently have a litter of pups on the ground that even from the shallowest line of descent would be F3, and of which the deepest line would be F8. (my apologies but I can not quote this, but the AKC considers F5 as pure bred and general genetic theory is F4) Out of a total of 13 only one specimen was not of type (a recessive white color stemming from the bulldog side) That Sir, would indicate breeding to type, of which is not indicative of “MUTTS”! It puzzles me that only dog people are so infatuated with only exclusively line breeding for “purity”, and have little regard for/knowledge of inbreeding coefficients and genetic depression. If any breed of which I am knowledgeable; the Neapolitan Mastiff, being descendant of only 8 dogs, of which most of the current show population is extremely weighted to only 4 or 5; sorely needs an introduction of new genetic material. I am by far not “knocking” the breed. In fact they are my favorite. (Owned two, both of which died very young of genetically inherited maladies, and one of the few in my area listed as breed rescue for them) Bandoggers are using current animal genetic theory and imposing this knowledge on breeding formulas documented on the English Bull Mastiff/Gamekeepers dogs (The best documented bandog program of the past) Hell even the German breed warden for the GSD has tried and failed to convince the show crowd to reopen the stud books to infuse some badly needed new genetic material. He directly sees what is happening to his breed and having a working dog background knows what is needed to bring back the GSD. (Due to the plague of ailments the GSD currently has{brought on by breeders selecting for traits not conducive for there intended purpose} most police departments are now employing Mals. Mr. BC…. Read…. Learn… Stop being like all the rest of the “cattle” and seek the truth!
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"but the AKC considers F5 as pure bred " Last spring at the IKC (iIlinois Kennel Club) I meet the woman that chairs the committe that is responcible to add breeds to AKC. I aslked her this very question. Her answer a was to the effect of a min. 9 generations breeding pure with an established breed book and a defined standard.
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I do stand corrected, but must emphasize my prior statement…[u] “(my apologies but I can not quote this, but the AKC considers F5 as pure bred and general genetic theory is F4)”[/u] That policy is buried deep in the AKC regulations and not easily found nor documented. Wow nine generations deep huh? You theoretically can obtain “purity” within four; in my opinion; at ten generations deep of in/line breeding it is time for another outcross! LOL Well luckily enough I highly doubt bandogs will be up for breed recognition by any KC in the near future…. LOL
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Hey Jay, Don't take offense from guys like Brad.. It is very hard for some people to accept new things..Esp when they are better than what they are accustomed to. So go easy on him..I know he talks a lot ,but this is a clear indication of how little he knows when it comes to bandogs. PS.Not all bandogs are created equal. :wink:
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[quote="Txbandogger"]I do stand corrected, but must emphasize my prior statement…[u] “(my apologies but I can not quote this, but the AKC considers F5 as pure bred and general genetic theory is F4)”[/u] That policy is buried deep in the AKC regulations and not easily found nor documented. Wow nine generations deep huh? You theoretically can obtain “purity” within four; in my opinion; at ten generations deep of in/line breeding it is time for another outcross! LOL Well luckily enough I highly doubt bandogs will be up for breed recognition by any KC in the near future…. LOL[/quote] Your are corect it's very hard to find info from most registerys on when they feel a breed is actually a BREED :roll:
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I say stop beating a dead horse, there are easier ways to make glue! I say if you don't like bandogs then you should just go smell the cherry blossoms and pet your akitas. As for kennel clubs, I truly hope they never recognize the bandog, it would be the start of the end. I can just see newbies lining up to breed, watering down the temperments, using inferior quality dogs to make their intitial crosses, working ability put aside for the pretty dog. It would be a shame.
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Sorry if you got offended , but Lucero did lie in order to import Italian Mastino. That is a fact. On to the rest, why would a breeder ever be honored to have thier dog go into a crossbreeding program? Say what you will but it isn't like making a cake. You don't add a little of this ands a little of that and wha-la! A superior dog. I see a ton of these Bandoggers and 90% of what I have seen I wouldn't give anyone two dollars for. As for the breeding of bad temperments, most top notch breeders breed for temperment first and foremost. For the Neo specifically the temperments have greatly imporved over the last fifteen years. I also find it ironic that you would get all bent up over me talking about what Lucero did and then you make a blanket statement " I understand the general blanket statements that the USNMC has stated, but this is to direct the many ignorant breeders, which is the majority of there membership." I suppose breeders like Garry Travers, Lisa Cinciripini, Joe Aldret, Leonardo Angeles, and Janet Hospodar are "ignorant breeders?" Funny, each one of them has a resume untouchable by anyone in the world of Bandogs. Kind of funny how that works? Take a look at this http://www.talismandogs.com/ Some of the most awful scatterbred crap I have ever seen. Granted they don't have Neo's they are mixing, not yet. God help us if this is where the future of the dog fancy is heading. Holy crap. FYI: Outcross depression happens at a 6x faster rate than inbred depression. Mutts have just as many if not per capita more problems than any one pure breed. The differance is, you don't know what to look for.
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The Neo is a working dog. What is now present is not a dog I would own. I admire a well breed neo, for its temp, working ability and nonexcessive amounts of wrinkles. After all they are mastiffs not sharpeis. I have cross breed for 11 years and have never had one genetic defect pop out. Then again I try my best to breed the best. lets water all the dogs down, and personfy them. thats sounds like the best thing to do, we all need cute 180 pound lap dogs.
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I can respect someone who is serious with an important goal when mixing different breeds together. But, the majority of people like this do not accomplish anything but put more dogs in the world. Look at what the brothers did with the Dogo Argentino, one of my personal favorite breeds. Same thing with the Aussie Cattle Dogs and a few others, but we do not view them as mix dogs. For someone to do the same thing presently would take a tremendous effort, years of it. Who nowadays is capable of this with success? Which is why most people do not have faith in someone who says "hey I will create the breed of the future and it will be better than all the rest." In my opinion, there is a purebred dog for any job.
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Wow. Never really realized that as a USNMC member I was being directed to do anything. Didn't realize how ignorant I truly was either. Have any more enlightening stories for me?? After all, you seem to have a better grasp on my personality than little ol' me.
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I want to state that I do not breed my dogs to be the dog of the future and to be better than the rest. I breed the dogs to suit my needs and meet certain goals I have envisioned. I like working dogs and working dogs period. I love my dogs and care for them, I am very affectionate with my dogs, but let me say that my dogs serve a purpose and a goal. I have owned many purebreeds in my life, I have found many of them lacking the necessary drive needed to protect and catch, two main things that I like to do. I find it ridiculous to have to mortage my house to find a quality purebreed working dog, I also find somewhat ridiculous to have to go out of my country to find a working quality dog and buy a dog sight unseen. I think many feel the need for the working dog is declining. I don't feel that way, in America the crime level is an all time high, last week a woman in my own neighborhood was raped, Last thanksgiving a murder occured at my neighbors house and my dog was able to apprehend one of the shooters. I take great pride in this. I admire a dog for the same reason our ancestors did, for their working ability. I see things lacking in many purebreeds, it all comes down to breeding. I don't care if you breed purebreeds or crossbreeds, if you don't use the best to best you won't make quality dogs. I respect all breeders, and when I bring home a dog for my molosser program, the breeder knows my plans. I am upfront with people, I don't lie. Dogs are dogs, we are the ones who label them, we are the ones who have specialized them, I wonder what type of dog we would have if natural selection was in control of the canines breeding habits. If anyone thinks there will be no new breeds in the next 100 years, then they unfortunately are blind. We will have the next dobies, boerbels, presas, corsos, dogos, danes, ab's, oeb's and I am sure the same will be done with these breeds as are being done with the new breeds of today. They will be alienated and labeled as mutt breeders, until they become popular and a kennel club will start registering them, THEN they will br considered purebreeds. Give me a dog that has no ties with any registries and I will take it. Dogs are now considered a commodity, well not to me, they are my family and they have never failed me and i will never fail them. I work for a living and selling pups is not my number one priority. This is not a business to me as it is to many, its a passion that I have had since I was a child. Its a natural gift given to me by god. I like good dogs, I work good dogs and I will always own a quality working dog. I don't follow the masses and I won't stand in line and stare at the back of someones head, I don't want to be out in front either, rather I will stand next to anyone and we can all move forward together, many don't feel this way. To not like a dog because its a cross is ignorant in my opinion, that had nothing to do with why man domesticated the dog. We must stop personfying dogs. What I have noticed is with more and more breeders wanting to water down dogs temps for the sole purpose of making more readily available is iresponsible, as many have stated there are plenty of dogs in the world. I am averaging 2 litters every 3.5-4 years. My friends and I work together in order for all of us not to have 10 litters a year, this way we can help each other and each others lines. Not many others can say this. How many breeders say there yard is closed off to the outside, how breeders feel like they don't need anyones help, well then they should not complain or lie when they breed themselves in a corner and have no diversity in their gene pool. I have seen it happen and its happening as we speak. No one should ever own a working dog because its cute. No one should try to alter the dogs to make them more available, there are billions of people in this world and many will take a good working dog. So when I hear watering down of the temp or changing certain characteristics of a dog to make them seem less tough or rugged is wrong. Thats not why people are attracted to these dogs I am sorry for the long post but for some reason I always seem to have defend myself, my dogs, and goals behind my program. You will be hard pressed to find a more responsible breeder than me, not tooting my own horn, but trying to state that there are still good breeders out there you stay up at night stressing about their programs. Anyone who knows me knows how serious I take my dogs and my program. I have been here for 11 years doing this and I will be here for another 11. I am proud of what I have accomplished and I am priming myself for the future. Purebreeds or crossbreeds, dogs are dogs.
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How is crossbreeding not "alternating?" I don't get it.
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Brad, elaborate abit for me. I don't quite no what you mean by alternating. Do you mean altering?
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[quote=bullmol242]Brad, elaborate abit for me. I don't quite no what you mean by alternating. Do you mean altering?[/quote] Yes you are correct, I typed that wrong. Thanks for pointing that out :) Anyway back to the question. Aren't you altering by crossbreeding? I have to admit Vinay you are hard to figure out. Most of what you believe in seems to be challenged by what you do. You are not for changing exsisting breeds but you are for eliminating them through crossbreeding. I remember you bemoaning that most native Indian breeds where dissapearing by being crossbreed, yet you do the same thing. I find it to be a strange paradox.
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Okay let me explain. When I was talking about the Indian breeds, I mean that these dogs are not ancient breeds. They have been crossbreed so there for the whole ancient breed theory is out the door. Now they do have some ancient lineage, but not like they are made out to be. The same goes for the corso. Now, lets talk about altering. I crossbreed, when I do a rottie x ab breeding, I will state that this dog is a F1. I don't state that this dog is something that its not. I breed for working ability, I don't breed to water down temps, or to make dogs more available, loveable, cute. I like a sharp dog that will serve a purpose that I need it to. Many corso breeders knowingly made crosses and then registered them as "purebreeds" as with the presas and pits. I like purebreeds, truly I do! I am not for altering dogs for the wrong reason and I like people to be honest about it. Don't crossbreed and then slap a before christ history on them. Now I alter dog for a purpose, and i am honest about, and I am not trying fix a breed. I hope this clears things up, atleast a little :wink:
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[quote=Astibus]What really is a mutt? I thought about it for a while and realized that the answer is not trivial. [/quote] I've always assumed a 'mutt' is whatever it is that the guy you don't like is breeding. ;) Seriously, I've seen the term tossed around so often it's almost lost all meaning. It's used to slander any breed that someone arbitrarily decides is 'impure'. Breeders of breeds with 'historic' pedigrees decry any breed developed in the 20th century as 'mutts'. Breeders of cockapoos claim to be breeding 'for a reason', and decry maltipoos to be 'mutts'. Who the hell knows what a 'mutt' is anymore? I'm more concerned about the ethics and intents of the person breeding than I am about what it is they're mixing together. All of our breeds started out as mutts at one time or another... it's just the luxury of distance from their origins that stops any of ours from being tarred with the same brush. Carol and the sometimes oh-so muttly Frenchies
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[quote=Astibus] When or better after how many generations of breeding back to pure dogs does that offspring cease to be called a mutt and becomes pure again?[/quote] Most livestock registries that support upgrading programs, recognise backcrossed animals as purebred at the 3rd to 5th generation. (eg. [u][url=http://www.americancoopworthregistry.org/gradingup.html]this one[/url][/u]) Also [u][url=http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html]here[/url][/u] you will see it took three generations of backcorssing to regain Boxer phenotype after an initial cross with a Corgi. [quote=Astibus]What really is a mutt?[/quote] A population of dogs that breeds true to type is a pure breed. If it doesn't breed true to type, then it's either a breed under development or a mix. There are mixes that are purposefully bred for certain characteristics (be those of appearance, working ability, temperament etc.) and there are mixes bred randomly or for marketing potential. Mutt is a derogatory term that derives from the abhorence for racial miscegenation combined with the tendency to project human values to dogs (eg. dogs as status symbols). Thus it is a word you can pretty much attach to any dog you don't like. :wink:
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[quote=FrogDogZ"][quote="Astibus]What really is a mutt? I thought about it for a while and realized that the answer is not trivial. [/quote] I've always assumed a 'mutt' is whatever it is that the guy you don't like is breeding. ;) Seriously, I've seen the term tossed around so often it's almost lost all meaning. It's used to slander any breed that someone arbitrarily decides is 'impure'. Breeders of breeds with 'historic' pedigrees decry any breed developed in the 20th century as 'mutts'. Breeders of cockapoos claim to be breeding 'for a reason', and decry maltipoos to be 'mutts'. Who the hell knows what a 'mutt' is anymore? I'm more concerned about the ethics and intents of the person breeding than I am about what it is they're mixing together. All of our breeds started out as mutts at one time or another... it's just the luxury of distance from their origins that stops any of ours from being tarred with the same brush. Carol and the sometimes oh-so muttly Frenchies[/quote] Carol, not to be rude but whould you sell one of your Frenchie's to someone that told you flat out they wanted to cross the dog they got from you with a Patterdale terrier? You know that people are doing this now right?
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[quote=BCofJurai] Carol, not to be rude but whould you sell one of your Frenchie's to someone that told you flat out they wanted to cross the dog they got from you with a Patterdale terrier? You know that people are doing this now right?[/quote] Nope. I might respect their rights to breed as they choose, if they're doing so for good reason, but I respect my right to not allow anyone to do so with a dog of my breeding even more. I'm trying to acheive my goals within the breed by using less popular lines with more emphasis on temperment, longevity and intelligence, as opposed to exageratedly short faced conformation and constrained body length. I had heard about the Frenchie/Patterdale cross, but can't conceive of what they're trying to acheive with it, and no one seems to be able to give me a serious answer that sounds logical. Carol
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[quote=Warthog]Also here you will see it took three generations of backcorssing to regain Boxer phenotype after an initial cross with a Corgi. [/quote]Interesting experiment! 8) [quote=Warthog]Mutt is a derogatory term that derives from the abhorence for racial miscegenation combined with the tendency to project human values to dogs (eg. dogs as status symbols).[/quote]Excellent observation! Isn't it interesting in this context that the formation of kennel clubs and the strict requirements for genetic purity all started in the late 19th to early 20th century?! :idea: [quote=FrogDogZ & Warthog]I've always assumed a 'mutt' is whatever it is that the guy you don't like is breeding. Thus it is a word you can pretty much attach to any dog you don't like.[/quote]You mean, it might be highly subjective? :wink: Best regards, Dan
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I find it funny that mankind finds so many ways to label, so many ways to make one thing superior to the next. We spend so much more time on the negative than the positive. It has gotten so bad that we label dogs the way we have labeled other races.
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Without those "labels" what would we have? If the idea of the purebreed is so unimportant what are we left with? Really? If it where all only about "function" and health as bandog people talk about and base the pitch on really what we would have would be just one type of dog. Pariah in type. No LGD's, No Bully Breeds, No retrievers, hunters, drovers or toys. Seriously, if you guys where really about what you claim I doubt 99% of these other topics would even enter the conversation. Purebreed dogs give us what we (the purebreed enthusiast) want. We want to know what to expect in regards to temperment, health and yes, asthetics. We want to be able to research and learn about what fits our lifestyle and our sence of good asthetics. We want to know what to look out for and keep an eye on in regards to health. These are all the reasons why purebreed dogs exsist. To mess with this, and replace all of this that we can know to expect and what to look out for and to replace that with a mixed bag of we don't know what, how is that adventageous? Listen, I have no problem with someone owning a mutt. I have no problem with someone who prefers mutts to purebreeds. Great, there are plenty of them being killed in shelters every day and those dogs regardless of what and where they came from don't deserve that. They deserve someone who loves them and to live out their lives in a good way. I am just against creating more of these dogs just because someone feels that they know better or they can do a better job than the long list of breeders who have dedicated their lives for the advancement of their purebreed dogs. A lot of Bandog people constantly speak to me about "respecting their choices." Well, that is all good except I don't see how they can demand respect for what they are doing or what they feel is best when they have no respect for those who have put in the work with those breeds they will later just turn around and mix. Sorry, to me it's kind of like asking me to respect someone who would throw paint over the Mona Lisa because they know better than Leonardo. JMHO :D
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I understand Brad, but remember that many people use the term mutt for any ill breed dog. I know I do. Plenty of mutts outhere pure and crossed. For many a cross offers what they want. Labeling is fine but not when its derogatory. There is never any need for name calling. Rich, poor, fat, skinny, black, white etc......labels divide, IMO. I do understand your point. We also have to objective not subjective. Just as Dan stated. What we like about dogs, what we hate about dogs, is all speculative and opinion based and is our own individual opinions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You don't have to paint over the mona lisa, but plenty of better paintings have been made and will continue to be made. The mona lisa is special because its old and not many works can now be found by its painter. Is it the most beautiful painting in world?? Its all speculative, we apprecaited past once its the past, but never in the present.
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[quote=BCofJurai]Sorry if you got offended , but Lucero did lie in order to import Italian Mastino. That is a fact. [/quote] Is it a fact?? so you will have no problem supplying us with evidence,now would you? Waiting for your reply
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[quote=GRBandog"][quote="BCofJurai]Sorry if you got offended , but Lucero did lie in order to import Italian Mastino. That is a fact. [/quote] Is it a fact?? so you will have no problem supplying us with evidence,now would you? Waiting for your reply[/quote] Why don't you try calling any of the top breeding kennels in the USA and Canada of the Mastino? He tried buying from all of them and was turned down when he mentioned crossbreeding. Then he imported from Italy and when S.A.M.N. found out about his true intentions of crossbreeding they put the kabosh on him also. It isn't a secret.
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My oh my, You really are a sociopath... listen up : I HAVE PERSONALLY SENT JOE LUCERO MASTINOS FROM THE TOP KENNEL IN ITALY (2 YEARS AGO) AND NOBODY SAID A F##KING THING ABOUT IT.(AND HE DOESN'T CROSSBREEDS THEM) The fact that he mentioned he wants to crossbreed says a lot about the intergrity of that man..he could keep his mouth shut and get the mastinos without anyone knowing about his plan. But Hey Sherlock of Jurai has investigated the case thouroughly..LMAO If you don't have anything solid to say i suggest you keep your mouth shut. now f##k off
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[quote=GRBandog]My oh my, You really are a sociopath... listen up : I HAVE PERSONALLY SENT JOE LUCERO MASTINOS FROM THE TOP KENNEL IN ITALY (2 YEARS AGO) AND NOBODY SAID A F##KING THING ABOUT IT.(AND HE DOESN'T CROSSBREEDS THEM) The fact that he mentioned he wants to crossbreed says a lot about the intergrity of that man..he could keep his mouth shut and get the mastinos without anyone knowing about his plan. But Hey Sherlock of Jurai has investigated the case thouroughly..LMAO If you don't have anything solid to say i suggest you keep your mouth shut. now f##k off[/quote] Name the top kennel. Also, why would he have to go through you if those "top kennels" got all excited aout a mutt breeder? :roll: :roll:
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apart from being ignorant you are also stupid.. The mastinos for his bandogs were used 20+ years ago. After the first F1's he produced he never did use any mastino again. The mastinos that i made the CONTACT for him were bought 2 years ago . THEY WERE SHIPPED TO HIS NAME..so your stupid statement that the Italians have him on a black list is unbased. You still have time to shut up and f##k off PS.Did you seriously expect that i would name the kennel to a fool like you?? Boy...you have high hopes :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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[quote=GRBandog]apart from being ignorant you are also stupid.. The mastinos for his bandogs were used 20+ years ago. After the first F1's he produced he never did use any mastino again. The mastinos that i made the CONTACT for him were bought 2 years ago . THEY WERE SHIPPED TO HIS NAME..so your stupid statement that the Italians have him on a black list is unbased. You still have time to shut up and f##k off PS.Did you seriously expect that i would name the kennel to a fool like you?? Boy...you have high hopes :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote] I am such a fool yet you love to post to me? What does that say of you? :D :roll: If everything is as Kosher as you say, why not name the kennel?
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you have been pimped.. Enjoy
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[quote=GRBandog]you have been pimped.. Enjoy[/quote] Sorry, I'm not your old lady. You must have me confused? :D :D :D
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nah...I would never confuse an old lady with an a$$hole Cheers
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8O Whoa, lets stop with the name calling and try to act like we're actually intelligent beings for once. Almost all dogs started as mutts. So what! We still love them right? If not then we wouldn't have taken the time to breed them till we had established a breed standard. In the end all the dogs but the first actual dogs are mutts. Just because you have bred it for certain colors, appearance, and traits doesn't mean its pure. Only the first ancient dogs are pure.
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If it can perform its not a mutt. If it can't then it is.
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I am a mutt Luitenent Dan! 1/2 Irish 1/2 Indian! :D :D :D :D :D
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Can this thread be moved to the Genetics Topic :?: :D Thanks
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I think of a mutt as being like my dog we rescued not sure just guessing he is spaniel and samoyed. I too have a purebred fila brasierlo now people who have EM's say my dog is a mutt but you know what I don't care. Everyone has a different standard for what a mutt is. My would be not being able to trace the bloodlines back to her, others are standards. We are whowe are and the samegoes for the dog. I love my mutt just as much as my fila. Do you love your dog for who he is or just how he looks? If I did that then my spaniel/samoyed mix who never have gotten adopted because he sure is UUUUUUUGLY!!!! :D
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