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CO Character Essentials

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    • Just the opposite has happened [u]in reality [/u]in US, which is known to those who attend the shows and show dogs under Russian judges in US: Russian judges are very strict in their judging of US (and European) dogs! Kirkitskaya judged 19 Ovcharka in the US and the judging took hours. She wrote brutal evaluations, she disqualified several dogs, threw them from the ring, gave few "Excellent" ratings, rated most dogs "Good" or "Very good only", and told the crowd that she was being generous in her ratings because most of the dogs in front of her were too fat! She vigorously chastized one exhibitor for bringing an especially small CO in front of her, gave the dog a "Very Good" rating based on structure, but told the owner publically that if she had her measure stick with her she would probably disqualify the dog based on height. Other FCI judges at the show expressed amazement at the strictness of Kirkitskaya's judging. Kirkitskaya wrote her results, with photos, on the internet and shared them with collegues in Russia and around the world. This US event was [u]videotaped.[/u] Kirkitskaya's judging in Germany has likewise been very strict. There she downgraded German Champions of the Breed to "Very Good" ratings much to the astonishment of some of the exhibitors. Revaz judged a CO during an east coast show, awarded the dog placement, but withheld the CAC so the dog could not advance to group! Some years later, Polivanov, impressed with the quality of US CO brought in front of him, reported same to his collegues from Moscow to Siberia. His words: [u]that the dogs in the US brought in front of him were good enough to win in competition in Russia[/u]. Brankovic has rated US CO in the range from "Good" to "Excellent". He has had no qualms in openly discussing faults of the dogs in front of him during seminar. There is a [u]videotape[/u] of his seminar doing just that.
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      • In the case of import of Russian champions to the US, it is also the case that progeny have already been imported, and their quality so good, that the known producer champion sire/dam is sought after, or even Russian champion in whelp, litter sired by Russian champion, is imported. In the latter situation, it is then possible for US breeder to have full control of litter and have available the litter picks. Nevertheless, the mark of a great breeder is not to take the easiest route, but to create quality through selection.
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          • Wolf your assumptions are POSSIBLE, but you can see in the post just above yours, not always correct. Even if the negatives you are raising happen some of the time, that doesn't make the effort something to ignore. It makes it something to work on. So we are getting quality judging in the US. Build on that. What we dont get in the US is the level of competition.... your CO is not compared to 300 others, it's compared to 30. But FCI type judging ,and Russian type judging, clearly addresses that. Look at the description of the judging that was done, Up to and including holding back awards. (BTW, THAT is where AKC judging can fall down. If we could stop looking at "possibilities" as reality, and start looking at what really happens, there's a point to deal with. We can't get there the way we're going, however) I think it's important to look at the possibilities, and consider them. However, it becomes impossible to accomplish anything, if every negative possibility is considered THE reality. You can think of possible negatives to the point of paralysis. Somewhere along the way you have to find the positives, continue to improve them, and work on reducing the negatives. It's difficult to do, and the person pointing to the negatives risks being seen as a blocker instead of constructive. Practically, you cannot maintain a breeding population/activity, in the US, expecting those breeders to take their dogs to russia to be judged. There has to be a third party process that takes place in the US (and hopefully across the US) to accomplish that. If any time you bring over an FCI, or Russian ,judge, everyone says "oh they were paid... etc etc" then you kill the concept. I dont think it's logical to do that, in the face of facts that tell you they can work very hard, and very well, in that situation. One of the worst situations would be to never show your dogs to others for third party evaluation. Judges brought here can't judge. Don't go to dog shows with their dogs. (how do you get more information about your dogs if you are not there to talk afterwards?) Insist judges educated here can't judge. So, no one can judge but the breeder themselves? Then a breeder ends up sitting back, judging their own dogs, and insisting that everyone else is "wrong". The biggest mistake a breeder can make. That's a lot easier, however. You have to then ask the question (Wolf, you will like this, it's that economic critique) : if they do that, to the degree they can convince others how only they know, how wrong everyone else is, then they can sell their puppies for more. And laugh at everyone else along the way. They also change the breed to suit their eye only. How do you balance that? Reduce that as a possibility? By showing your dogs to third parties. Even with all the flaws you can find in that process, it's better than "nothing" and all the negatives that creates. It's a lot better if you work at it with the judges , with the process. What seems like two breeders disagreeing changes it's nature a lot if you start to drill down on that detail, doesn't it? It changes to one person saying "only I know" vs another saying "I want to hear, and incorporate, what other people who know, have to say". There is another "possibility" to these examples : That some russian breeders make an extra effort to export excellent dogs. That they recognize that it is one world and one breed. That they work with breeders in the US they trust and talk to. That is happening. Not theory, or possibility, but reality. You have to recognize that, and fold it into whatever other presumptions you are making. Another is that at least some judges who come here, paid as ALL judges are, make an extra effort to judge dogs here well, and constructively. That, out from under the enormous pressures of politics within the russian rings etc., that they are actually able to do their job more specifically for the breed. That also has taken place. It's even a matter of public record. If people start to insist that the possible negatives are realities, they can end up insulting the people who really have made the effort. How does the Russian breeder, who exports high quality dogs to a US breeder, react if they see comments like "Russian breeders will soften the breed just to sell puppies" ? How does the respected judge, who spent hours going through the detail, who even showed that detail back to the home country, react if the assumption is "judges who have their trip paid soften their judging". That doesn't mean the negative possibilities shouldn't be considered. they should be. I think it means you consider the negative possibilities, then recognize when they are overcome, and look to do more of that.
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            • [quote=Wolf] Bringing judges from abroad doesn't mean a damn thing, as it is obvious to everyone familiar with how such things work that judges are human and they do enjoy the special treatments they receive as guests, as do the hosts benefit from everything that goes with their hospitality. I mean, how gullible do some people think everyone is? It is a well-known FACT that most judges around the world, especially in eastern Europe have a long tradition of being known as easily bribed and playing favours as it suits them. [/quote] Insistence on this position when the FACTS are different. Russian judges have judged CO in the US very very strictly. Documented, videotaped, that's how it has gone. STRICT JUDGING. The information upon which you base your posts is wrong. The possibilities you raise are just that: possibilities. The path that the breed is actually on is one of strict evaluation and critique. You might consider changing your focus to encourage stategies to continue the high level of judging we have already seen in the US.
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              • [quote=Wolf]So you basically have an individual (or a group of like-minded breeders) whose objective is to promote, market and solidify their own interpretation of the breed, disregarding the complaints of others and rewarding those who follow the party line, especially if there are perks involved with rewarding such followers. After all, it is about marketing a product and selling lots of it.[/quote] One way to better have a voice and to have complaints considered is to make that voice a reasoned one. One that actually relies on such things such as research and facts not misinformation and fear that every negative scenario will become real.
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                • To sort of return to the original topic of CO character: Obviously we have already discussed the limitations of a conformation show setting and assessing temperament as well as "training" and conditioning specimens to tolerate a judge's exam. ESQ: Special perks aside, what, if anything, do you recall about what the visiting judges had to say about assessing temperament or character in dogs in a conformation show setting? Did they make any comments about the "character" of individual dogs in their written critiques? If there were two dogs they liked, did "character" help them choose the winner?
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                    • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                      • [quote=sbates]To sort of return to the original topic of CO character: [/quote] Good point, the thread was about character essentials. Intelligence. Alertness. Courage. Territoriality. Loyalty to owner. Devotion to family. Gentleness and playfulness with friends. Protective nature. Distrustful attitude towards all strangers. Aggressive response to threatening strangers. Elevated defense reactions. Reasonable adaptability. Tolerance of non-threatening dogs. Aggressive response to aggressive-acting dogs. Engagement in levels of physical conflict appropriate to the severity of threat. Ability to learn and be trained. I've tried to list the qualities a CO should be born with and you could say that some of the examples listed are walking the line between character traits and the overall package, but those are the essential characteristics of a proper CO. P.S. In my opinion, of course. Wouldn't want to be accused of promoting anything. :lol: :wink:
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                          • [quote=Wolf]The US population of COs consists mostly of "pet quality" (hate that term) dogs, throwaway "champs", a few descendants of great dogs and only a handful of examples that could be considered as excellent dogs from the former USSR acquired by those with good connections overseas, whether they're breeders or friends/relatives with one or two good breeders from abroad.[/quote] Your radar isn't even turned on.
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                            • [quote=sbates] Special perks aside, what, if anything, do you recall about what the visiting judges had to say about assessing temperament or character in dogs in a conformation show setting? Did they make any comments about the "character" of individual dogs in their written critiques? If there were two dogs they liked, did "character" help them choose the winner?[/quote] Good questions. I'm curious about this as well.
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                              • Very little overt character assessment but definitely the judges put up the more confident dogs, tail up, that present as if they own the ring. I found one written critique with "good temperament" included. Verbal comments from judges usually address training and ring readiness.
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                                • When was the last time you have taken your dogs to the show? Any organization what so ever? AKC, UKC, ARBA, Raritites, FCI, MolosserWorld.....? When do you plan to go to the next one? (I would like to come and meet you)
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                                  • [blockquote]Very little overt character assessment but definitely the judges put up the more confident dogs, tail up, that present as if they own the ring. I found one written critique with "good temperament" included. Verbal comments from judges usually address training and ring readiness.[/blockquote] Translation: They don't care about temperament as long as the dogs have bear heads.
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                                    • [quote=Wolf] Intelligence. Alertness. Courage. Territoriality. Loyalty to owner. Devotion to family. Gentleness and playfulness with friends. Protective nature. Distrustful attitude towards all strangers. Aggressive response to threatening strangers. Elevated defense reactions. Reasonable adaptability. Tolerance of non-threatening dogs. Aggressive response to aggressive-acting dogs. Engagement in levels of physical conflict appropriate to the severity of threat. Ability to learn and be trained. I've tried to list the qualities a CO should be born with and you could say that some of the examples listed are walking the line between character traits and the overall package, but those are the essential characteristics of a proper CO. P.S. In my opinion, of course. Wouldn't want to be accused of promoting anything. :lol: :wink:[/quote] Could describe a Kuvasz or any of the LGDs really, some being more aloof with friends than others, but probably more variation between individuals of each breed than between the breeds.
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                                      • I thought you were breeding a [u]breed[/u], Stacey? :lol:
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                                        • [quote="Wolf"][blockquote]Very little overt character assessment but definitely the judges put up the more confident dogs, tail up, that present as if they own the ring. I found one written critique with "good temperament" included. Verbal comments from judges usually address training and ring readiness.[/blockquote] Translation: They don't care about temperament as long as the dogs have bear heads.[/quote] Just another example of an unreasonable complaint, the type that gets ignored. Furthermore, on one hand, you've complained that we shouldn't follow the Russians, in the next breath, suggested that the only way is for everyone to run back to Russia to show our dogs, from thread to thread, but all on this CO forum.
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                                            • Actually you posted that Russian judges to US were useless, that we need to go back to Russia to compete to prove our stock. But Russia is where the "bear views" are heavily favored. Now you post negatively about "bear view". Spouting negativity seems to be most important even if it lead to contradictory positions.
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                                                • [quote=Wolf]Yeah and where's the inconsistency? Bringing judges here is useless, taking your dogs over to the home country is not. Where's the misunderstanding?[/quote] Are you kidding me? Let's see. You say: Russian judges in the US are useless. Russian judges in Russia are good (same judges). Russian judges in the US accept the bear head/look. Russian judges in Russia accept the bear/head look. (same judges, same look) But wait a second, you said Russian judges were useless. No no, you said they were good. Depends on where they are? No, that isn't it either, since they allow the same thing in both places. Hmm.... Maybe you should explain the consistency, using all the things you said not just some of them? While you are doing that, could you recognize real events, so you dont say things that are already demonstrated to not be possibilities? Wolf I know you dont like when I do this, but really.... either you are inconsistent without knowing it (hard to imagine but hey...), or you are so determined to be negative that consistency doesn't make any difference. Hmm is that part of the entertainment?
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                                                    • Also, mentioned the Russian Judges possibly being motivated/influenced by the perk of trip to U.S.
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                                                      • The inconsistency in what you said was in the judges "judging". That they judge differently. (I even used short sentences, to avoid any confusion about that. grin ) Your starting argument was that since they were paid to come to the US, they would not judge the same way. I thought you expressed that very clearly. There seems to be no question that was your argument. Are you saying now that you dont think the money is the issue? Or did you just leave that out for some reason? Not judging the same way means rating dogs differently. Are you now saying it isnt the money, but it's the peer pressure, the politics, lots of other dogs around... THAT changes how they rate dogs ? How do you explain that they reference/accept Bear type in both the US and Russia? (among many other things they rated) I'm not trying to be tricky here. You started off assuming they have to judge differently to make a point about dogs in the US. You used one reason, that didnt seem to work and it seems like now you're trying to use another reason. Maybe there will be new reasons if those dont hold up. I think you can see why someone might say there is inconsistency. Besides changing the reason, you still didnt address that they in fact DID l judge the same way. You did not address that your original starting point, "they judge differently", does not seem to be correct. They rated dogs, compared the same things, Bear among them. I'm just trying to keep track of your point (or maybe that's part of the inconsistency? hmm) Either way... Just to throw in another piece here, one of the arguments (not so much here apparently, more drama seems preferred), is that FCI judges judge against the standard. I am sure I didn't miss that point in all the discussions over the years about FCI judging. In fact, people often refer to how the judge rated the dog, as more important than the particular award. The whole point of that is that the rating is the same whether there is one dog, or 50 dogs, in the ring. Your new set of points runs very contrary to that. Are you also saying they do not judge against the standard? If you want to stay with different judging, and change to this new set of influences, its pretty hard to ignore something else. That the judges are freed from those influences in the US, and perhaps judge with LESS influence. I dont want to put words in your mouth (or make it easy to get out of this one grin)... BUT perhaps you really meant to talk about the award only? That the award, in any given show, is not the most important thing since it can be influenced by a number of Possible things.... who knows exactly what. It really doesn't make any difference where the show takes place? You were so specific about US vs Russia, however... hmm Perhaps you were trying to ONLY say that when there are more dogs present, and you get an AWARD, that it MIGHT have more value since there might be more competition>? But that's starting to sound like AKC judging, not FCI judging. (btw, AKC shows give a dog more points, the bigger the competition... just so we dont go into an off track tail spin about that) Since we're concerned (I know you are you've been very clear about that) about the quality of the dog; not the award on a particular day. IF you are talking about the AWARD, not the judges ratings, not the quality of the particular dog. Then I dont know why we went through this whole excercise? Better drama with your approach, I'll give you that. Anyway you were going to clear up the apparent inconsistencies. Could you take another shot at it please?
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                                                        • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                                                          • [quote=BabsT]Off topic... Wolfbyte... why the need for so many spaces between thoughts??? You can shorten the lenght of each page, by reducing the space skipping... just a thought :)[/quote] I'm just trying to put a space between paragraphs, so there is not one big block of text to wade through. I'm only skipping one line, because I cant do paragraph indents.... I dont see an indent marker on this? ok I went back and tried to squash them together more. Not sure that did much, though. Hmmm maybe I could do different colors, and keep everything together?
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                                                            • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                                                              • [quote=BabsT]I am not an English lanugage guru but those are short paragraphs, just saying... no biggie more curiosity... tis all :)[/quote] [color=darkblue]If I had html code handy I could probably do it differently.[/color] [color=violet]Why do you have one paw, and I have three paws? Did we do something good/bad for those?[/color] (hehe)
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                                                                • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                                                                    • [quote=Wolf]Steve, I've explained it very clearly and don't feel like I have to draw you a picture.[/quote] Simple, short sentences: You did not explain your inconsistencies, you ignored the first ones and created more. If you're talking about how FCI judges judge: rate dogs, then nothing you're saying is correct. OR, you have little or no respect for those judges, no matter where they are. You can refer to my longer post to get the details I guess. Or just post another non amusing picture of something. That's always a good way to distract. You do know I dont bother to post those things expecting you to respond, right? At best a lot of your positions are only good for one challenge before they fall apart.
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                                                                      • [quote=apsiber]Also, mentioned the Russian Judges possibly being motivated/influenced by the perk of trip to U.S.[/quote] One way to look at it. Other factors to consider are the political pressure Russian judges are under when judging specialities in Russia. The criticism there is that winners are picked beforehand. Don't know if that is true or not but know for sure that the political pressure is off the Russian/FCI judges when they come here and put up dogs they don't know owned by people they don't necessarily know (well). As an example, I took 7 dogs and pups under a judge once that didn't have a clue all 7 were mine until judging was completed.
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                                                                        • [quote=BabsT]I would also like to ask if you have ever owned a CO before? I see that you are a part of Kuvasz rescue but I didn't notice anything about Caucasians[/quote] Not that it makes any difference, Babs. I've owned two. I am half Armenian. Half Hungarian.
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                                                                          • The silly pictures, dirty tactics, mud-slinging and name calling add nothing of value to this thread whatsoever. :?
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                                                                            • [quote=Mei-Mei]The silly pictures, dirty tactics, mud-slinging and name calling add nothing of value to this thread whatsoever. :?[/quote] Hi Mei Mei, it does get old very quickly, doesn't it! I guess when one runs out of words to express themselves, that they have to revert to weird pictures which have no bearing on the subject. At least that would be my guess. Certainly is a strange way to do it though. As a result, we have had scarecrows, huge beautiful rabbits, composite of a baby with a mans head, and now???? Whats next? On a form about, or suppose to be about, the Caucasian Ovcharka. Makes you stop and think doesn't it? Oh gees, now am I going to be pounced upon and my wonderful Caucasians again talked about? That would be true to form! Kat
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                                                                              • [quote=YL] Well, bogus discussions, extra-long posts with absent relevance to the topic, as well as opinions based on no experience or knowledge do not impress me either[/quote] The discussions are educated, intellectual and philosophical and won't appeal to everyone. Apparently they appeal to quite a few of us though. Don't like it, don't read.
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                                                                                • [quote=Wolf] By taking a dog to Russia (or other eastern-European countries where the CO has a long tradition) to a reputable Dog Show (preferably a CO Specialty event) and being in the company (or mercy) of many judges, many breeders, many owners and those familiar with the breed, not to mention being surrounded by 20, 60 or more Caucasians,[/quote] With what registration papers do you suppose will allow for this international showing?
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                                                                                  • [quote=EsqCaucasians"][quote="Wolf] By taking a dog to Russia (or other eastern-European countries where the CO has a long tradition) to a reputable Dog Show (preferably a CO Specialty event) and being in the company (or mercy) of many judges, many breeders, many owners and those familiar with the breed, not to mention being surrounded by 20, 60 or more Caucasians,[/quote] With what registration papers do you suppose will allow for this international showing?[/quote] Good point Stacey! We could take our dogs there and Europe, BUT would NOT be allowed to show them UNLESS they have FCI, or AKC pedigrees. Folks, the FCI, as I am sure most of you know, allows only one organization per country, and for the USA that is AKC! So, UKC nor anyother pedigrees could show there. I do not know, but probably RKF could also. For a dog to have FCI pedigrees, they have to have been born in an FCI Country. This presents a problem Wolf to your way of thinking. Out of my three Caucasians, I have one that is FCI pedigree. So she could be shown in Russia or Europe, providing I could take the time to do it and had the money to do it. Not to mention who is going to feed, exercise, and watch my other two Caucasians while I am gone. It is not as simple as it sounds to do. Kat
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                                                                                    • [quote=EsqCaucasians"][quote="Wolf] By taking a dog to Russia (or other eastern-European countries where the CO has a long tradition) to a reputable Dog Show (preferably a CO Specialty event) and being in the company (or mercy) of many judges, many breeders, many owners and those familiar with the breed, not to mention being surrounded by 20, 60 or more Caucasians,[/quote] With what registration papers do you suppose will allow for this international showing?[/quote] [size=16]In Russia, you can get a pedigree on the CO, even if your papers are not recognized by the bred club. All you have to do is get the dog evaluated by 3 different judges - and vuala! you have a registration. But for this the dog has to look like a CO, move like a CO, have a character like a CO WITHOUT SUPPORTING PAPERWORK. But if at least one doesn't think that the dog fits the standard - the papers will not be issued. Care to try? LMAO[/size]
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                                                                                      • I don't need to try as all my dogs are FCI/RKF registered. The question was for Wolf and others who are registering with UKC. Also, I believe the dogs have to be born in Russia to be affirmed to the RKF studbook.
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                                                                                        • [quote=EsqCaucasians]I don't need to try as all my dogs are FCI/RKF registered. The question was for Wolf and others who are registering with UKC. Also, I believe the dogs have to be born in Russia to be affirmed to the RKF studbook.[/quote] Imported dogs all have the option of RKF/FCI registration if you pay for it. The dogs you BREED in US are not RKF/FCI registered, but have an option I described to be registered with RKF and enter shows in Russia.
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                                                                                          • Good point Stacey! We could take our dogs there and Europe, BUT would NOT be allowed to show them UNLESS they have FCI, or AKC pedigrees. Folks, the FCI, dont forget they need ears than too
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                                                                                            • [quote=wolfbyte]Mike It is just a book. It is just a speech. It is just something said along the way. It is just a word. It is just joke. How many things that (I hope) you would not stand for have been excused that way? It is just the internet. Know something Mike? A supposed MODERATOR on this site was out of control. Not a little bit, a lot. Setting an example for behavior, and so encouraging behavior, that is way over the line. Misusing his priviledges as a moderator. Not some "oh, I dont like your arguments" trumped up to something more. He continues to be derisive and inflammatory with intent. Apparently, he gets to do that with impunity still, setting an example for some others. I spoke to the owner of the site about his misuse of his moderator tools. Privately. That's not calling in the calvary, it is what the site owner is there for (among other reasons) So knock off the silly games and interpretations. The fact that he needed to throw that out into public as a rant, that he had to use that as another way to deride, should really speak for itself. He was cc'd what I said to the owner privately, and if he had an issue with it he could have taken it up with me privately. He chose to trash the thread with it. There are people on here who dont want to see the trash being thrown into discussion threads. The stupid pictures posted with mal intent. The constant personal, and extreme derision. Not an occasional quip, not a heated discussion. Pure derision, trash, and personalization. If they speak up about it, that's not calling in the calvary either. Trying to make objecting to that somehow wrong, trying to make this a competition and making as if common sense actions, and speaking up, are calling in the calvary, that's a problem, Mike. If more than one person has something to say, and they agree somehow, that's not call in the calvary. Right now there are two people who make a campaign of trashing every discussion thread where they dont like what is being discussed; o who is discussing it. There is at least one more who likes to drop in and out now. Whether they are doing it "together", or they just can't behave reasonably, the effect is the same. Stupid pictures with mal intent, and trashy confrontational comments being made about individuals. Do you think YL's picture re ethnicity was funny? Sure, just hysterical. And if it had been of a black person picking cotton to say how stupid someone hwo was black and had posted they were, would it still be funny? Would it Mike? Would that be JUST a picture, and would it be JUST the internet? What do you know about Armenians, Mike? Are you aware of the genocide of Armenians by Turkish elements, that exceeded what was done to the Jews. All within a one week period? Would a picture deriding a Jew who had said they were Jewish just be funny, Mike? Just the Internet? Last night I came onto the site to see what was up, and on EVERY thread i this section that was active, the discussions about valid issues and items about the dogs, had stopped. Mike including a post by you with that sketch, which had a LOT of potential. I thought that sketch and your comment was the single most important post made in a very very long time. That potential was completely obliterated by the trash. You dont mind that loss, though, if the trash somehow stops people from saying things you dont agree with?? That's a shame. The things I pointed out about it could have actually proven some of the points you seem concerned about. OR resolved them. Your loss. But also everyone else's loss. You, or they, may want to play the game of saying a long post by me stops discussion. What does stop the discussion is the volume of trash, the mal intent, the pure derision. I dont mean a different point of view. I dont mean higher level concepts that they dont want to think about, so they call it trash. I mean pure trash. So yeah, you might want to think about whether you want to contribute to that just because it looks like fun, or you thought of a clever way to do the same. Or you think it doesnt make any difference.[/quote] Great post Steve! Thanks for saying what needed to be said. I know that I am thinking about leaving this group, as no matter what I say here, it WILL be attacked by some. I know of other people who have left this group because of all the attacks on different people by some. So, why stay? There are other groups which you can learn, post, and actually have a civilized conversation going. I can not see this group ever changing. It is sad, as this could be a good group if some would let it, but we know that will NOT happen. :roll: My time is too valuable to read this kind of attacks on people, any people! I have Caucasians to work whom happen to appreciate it when I am with them. I do not need to come here and be subject to written abuse and see that there are some who are emailing that MY CO's are not correct temperments just because I take the time and effort to work with them, and socialize them. It seems that the ones who attack the most here, care not that this breed may be banned due to their own actions, or should I say ~ lack of actions? So, those here who enjoy reading attacks on certain people, have fun! I will no longer be on this form. Steve, I am American Indian, Cherokee and Delaware. Keep smiling Kat
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                                                                                              • Gary was here - and so were some posts that had nothing to do with the topic. Next to leave the scene will be members who cannot seem to carry on a conversation without personal insults. Bantering between to memeber that are of no value to the general membership should be done offline in PM or some other methods. Consider if your post will add something worthwhile to the discussion before pounding the keys and wasting your time when it gets deleted.
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                                                                                                • These thread all seem to merge together eventually but I think this information applies to this topic. I found a great article that applies to this topic. Here is some of the information and the link, since no one has posted on this thread in a while hope you don't mind the long citations if so feel free to clean up or let me know and I will do it myself. [blockquote]A basic principle to remember is that animals with large, complex brains are less governed by innate behavior patterns. For example, bird behavior is governed more by instinct than that of a dog, whereas an insect would have more hard-wired behavior patterns than that of a bird. This principle was clear to Yerkes (1905) who wrote: Certain animals are markedly plastic or voluntary in their behavior, others are as markedly fixed or instinctive. In the primates plasticity has reached its highest known stage of development; in the insects fixity has triumphed, instinctive action is predominant. The ant has apparently sacrificed adapt-ability to the development of ability to react quickly, accurately and uniformly in a certain way Roughly, animals might he separated into two classes: those which are in high degree capable of immediate adaptation to their conditions, and those that are apparently automatic since they depend upon instinct tendencies to action instead of upon rapid adaptation. When dogs are raised in barren and nonstimulating environments they are also more excitable (Walsh and Cummins, 1975; Melzak and Burns, 1965). Schultz (1965) stated, "when stimulus variation is restricted central regulation of threshold sensitivities will function to lower sensory thresholds." Krushinski (1960) studied the influence of isolated conditions of rearing on the development of passive defense reactions (fearful aggression) in dogs and found that the expression of a well-marked fear reaction depends on the genotype of the animal. Airedales and German shepherds were reared under conditions of freedom (in homes) and in isolation (in kennels). Krushinski (1960) found that the passive defense reaction developed more acutely and reached a greater degree in the German shepherds kept in isolation compared to the Airedales. In general, animals reared in isolation become more sensitive to sensory stimulation because the nervous system attempts to readjust for the previous lack of stimulation. Countless examples of serious problems caused by continuous selection for a single trait can be found in the medical literature (Steinberg et al., 1994; Dykman et al., 1969). People with experience in animal husbandry know that overselection for single traits can ruin animals. Good dog breeders know this. Sometimes traits that appear to be unrelated are in fact linked. Wright (1922, 1978) demonstrated this clearly by continuous selection for hair color and hair patterns in inbred strains of guinea pigs. Depressed reproduction resulted in all the strains. Furthermore, differences in temperament, body conformation, and the size and shape of internal organs were found. Belyaev (1979) further showed that continuous selection for a calm temperament in foxes resulted in negative effects on maternal behavior and neurological problems. The fox experiments also found graded changes in many traits over several years of continuous selection for tame behavior. Physiological and behavioral problems increased with each successive generation. In fact, some of the tamest foxes developed abnormal maternal behavior and cannibalized their pups. Belyaev et al. (1981) called this "destabilizing selection," in contrast to "stabilizing selection" found in nature (Dobzhansky 1970; Gould, 1977). http://www.grandin.com/references/genetics.html[/blockquote]
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                                                                                                  • [quote=wolfbyte"][quote="wolfbyte]To change a BREED would require a specific, costly, very large (on the Russian program scale) breeding program, and a tightly controlled one. OR, I suppose, a very considerable period of time with less specific effort but at the very least, an isolated breeding pool. Neither of those exist. On that basis, and in that context, I dont think you're going to undo what has been taking place for 1,000 years (in the sense of LGD traits, whatever the specific breed that's split off), or for 100 or 200 years. The Russian effort was such a program. They did not use some tools available today (they did not exist) to accellerate the process. It was applied to some lines, there are other lines that were not so clearly impacted.[/quote] Gary this seems like a relevant answer to me? Not the emphasis on changing an entire breed. Note the emphasis on time and effort. [/quote] I had forgotten about his one.... Time and effort can be easily directed by an organization such as the AKC. If the AKC changes the standard (done) and have a legion of judges who expects to approach any dog in the ring and put their hands in its face (done) then anyone wishing to sell puppies with AKC papers will select for such traits as to make their dogs conform to the prescribed norm. It is quite easy actually..... and many thought this topic was dead.
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                                                                                                    • [quote=poseidon] I had forgotten about his one.... Time and effort can be easily directed by an organization such as the AKC. If the AKC changes the standard (done) and have a legion of judges who expects to approach any dog in the ring and put their hands in its face (done) then anyone wishing to sell puppies with AKC papers will select for such traits as to make their dogs conform to the prescribed norm. It is quite easy actually..... and many thought this topic was dead.[/quote] This is incorrect factually. First, the Breed is not AKC recognized. (not done) Second, the AKC does not "direct" it's "efforts" in breeding, as a breeding program does. There is really no comparison between the Russian breeding program, as an example, and AKC recognition. Nor do the "legions of judges" apply that non existent direction. Third, there is no requirement to show a dog to register puppies, or sell them with AKC papers. Most telling of all, all the factors that really do apply re AKC, apply with ANY registry/show structure. If AKC is so terrible, then so is FCI, and the breed is already "lost". This becomes, whether intended or not, a denial of using any registry or shows to value dogs. All of the comments seem to imply that there is an intentional effort to "change the breed", when changing the breed is never the intent. Then even if not an intentional effort, that somehow the breed will be "changed" to something else it should not be. Should not be according to whom? might be the first thing to consider. Once you get past that, you still need to deal with how that change might happen. To suggest, for example : 'Even if they dont intend to change the breed, they will, and to something it shouldn't be. They cant help it, it's how they work.' Is also incorrect.No registry/show structure seeks to change a breed to something it should not be. A breed stays, or becomes something, based on what the breeders do with it. Recognition, AKC, FCI, take your pick, can never replace respect for the breed in all its facets, and sound breeding programs based on that respect. No AKC recognition leaves the direction of the breed completely uncontrolled in the US, as it is right now in the US. AKC recognition provides some measure of control, directly, through the standard. Less directly, through the aggressiveness of the Parent Breed club structure and operations. That's just how it works. Pointing to failures in the care taken re the standard, or failures in the structure and pro active participation of the breed club, don't change that. Arguing that the breed can't have a clear definition of conformation, just creates more confusion, and less of a breed. The same holds true for some of the discussions of temperament vs training. You need to work to make, and keep, a breed on track. You can either work with better tools, or leave it to the wind. A standard, and even a show process, require doing something more than arguing opposing extreme viewpoints; for the benefit of the breed. Without that, the breeds future is left to the whims, and sometimes even misrepresentations of individuals. The whole issue of how a dog behaves in the ring has been beaten to death. Yet that continues to underly comments that include judges, and hands on. You can train a properly balanced temperament to behave as needed to be judged in the ring. That is not breed specific. Being a dog, vs a Wolf, means it can be trained more easily, and more reliably, than a wolf might be. That's part of the definition of domesticated. Dogs are domesticated, whatever the breed. Every person who talks about how ferocious their dog should be in one circumstance or another, is at the same time saying "but he is trainable" in some other. If not, they wouldnt be able to get near their own dog . Meanwhile, miniature poodles can, and have been, dismissed from the ring for refusing to be judged. It's all about balanced temperament and training, nothing more. All the mystery or reality, about how a dog behaves in the field, apply to the field. Not to the training for the show ring. How you train, how much work it is, differs depending on the breed. Training doesn't change the inherent nature of the dog or whether it passes that along to its progeny.
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