• 14

Changes to the Neapolitan Mastiff part II

Guys, in this thread, lets try to keep this from happening. Mike
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Replies (36)
  • All - some wanted the other topic [url=http://molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3824]Changes to the Neapolitan Mastiff[/url] opened to continue the discussion and I had openned it. On second thought I am creating this new one so the discussion can continue if there is a desire. The main reason is that the other thread needed my constant attention because some members who posted are not longer on the site and that caused a pagination problem and throws the error No posts exist for this topic whenever a new page is needed. Because I really don't have the time to babysit the topic and also since it has gotten to so many pages - it is a good idea to start a new one. You can always quote things from the [url=http://molosserdogs.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3824]original topic[/url].
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    • Guys, in this thread, lets try to keep this from happening. Mike
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      • If everyone can maintain objectivity and refrain from personal attacks I don't see why we shouldn't have a mature discussion on the changes in Mastini. (JC that means you too, I'm sure you'd have banned anyone from Il Colosseo for the behaviour you've displayed here)
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        • JC that means you too, I'm sure you'd have banned anyone from Il Colosseo for the behaviour you've displayed here) This is trhowing up a ball for more personal discussions
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          • [quote=caro] This is trhowing up a ball for more personal discussions[/quote] It wasn't meant to, JC and me had our personal discussions via PM and IM on IlC, and even on the phone. :lol:
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            • it was the first thought that popped up in my mind. Well good :D that you kept it privat Welcome to MD Andy :D
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              • Since the thread is dying, I thought it'd be a good idea to revive it with a discussion geared towards an actual issue in the breed. This post of mine seen below can already be found on a couple of different forums: [color=orange]The desire to produce "beasts" in the Neo and Caucasian (or Hippos and Bears, respectively) has already seriously messed up the first and is starting to mess up the latter breed. People are impressed with large heads, broad shoulders, great mass and the overall look and vibe of Molossers, but many don't realize that such appearance was (as it should be) reserved for dogs that are fully mature, well over 4 years of age. Up until then, these dogs are supposed to look like normal and visibly functional un-exaggerated animals. The Neo, for instance, used to look nicely balanced, "under-typey" even in the past, at least until 4 years of age, when the size of the head and overall body mass would increase and the wrinkles become more pronounced. But since people are in awe of mature Neos of the past and apparently can't wait for a normal dog to simply grow up, the demand for the "over-typey" (or "old out of the box", as I like to call it) look has forced most breeders into producing non-functional, over-sized and hyper-typical mastini, while perfectly normal and correct dogs which are developing at a more natural rate are being ridiculed. Everyone wants a di Ponzano look, but most people only look at photos of fully mature di Ponzano dogs without realizing that those famous dogs (and most other strains) didn't look like that for the first 2 or 3 years of their lives at all. Same crap is happening in the Caucasian Ovcharka breed, where the new wave of "bear"-obsessed breeders are flooding the market with giant pups who look like, you guessed it - [u]bear cubs[/u], and grow to be ridiculously heavy, with super rich coats and enormous heads before even turning a year old! Who cares that their fat legs are getting shorter and shorter (like in the Neo breed) and their health is worsening (like in the Neo breed) and their lifespans getting shorter and shorter (like in the Neo breed)... So you basically have quite a vicious cycle at play, because when breeding dogs that look old before their time, the dogs interestingly enough don't live very long, so the pressure is on the breeders to produce dogs that look friggin' old at an even earlier age. As if that isn't bad enough, both breeds suffer from the same elitist attitude which demands outrageous prices for these dogs who sometimes die after only 2 years of age or get to live out their miserable handicapped lives until dropping dead at 4 or 5 years. And people pay ridiculous amounts of money for them... Now, if that isn't utterly retarded, I don't know what bloody is then.[/color] Perhaps I could've been "nicer" about it, but it is what it is. :wink:
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                • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                  • [quote=sextones] I don't see the trend of dogs being bred without regard to health stopping any time soon, in any breed for that matter. I just wonder how many years before it won't be uncommon to see dogs hovering around 300 pounds... [/quote] Im going to answer this by using the NFL as a reference. IN 1985, Willism the Referigerator Perry was a Defensive tackle for the Chicago bears. At that time he was a veritable giant, at 6'1" and 315lbs. NOW, only 20 years later, the NFL coaches are requiring their players to be UNDER 385 LBS!!! Most linemen in the nfl are at an average of 6'4 and 320 lbs, with some of the biggest amongst them being jonahton ogden, who stands in at a mere 6'9" tall and weighs in at 360lbs, Flozell adams, who went to the highschool that kicked me, who stands in at 6'8" tall and weighs in at 350lbs, and we cant forget about Linkin Kennedy, who isnt playing anymore, who was 6'7 and 405!!! In 20 years, people have in 1 sport, who were raised and trained for it have been pushed to THIS extreme in size, and thats WITHOUT controlling the breeding/parenting of these people. Imagine what we will create with animals that we DO control the breedings and parentings! Mike
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                    • i don't see it ever completely changing as a whole...too many people in this world with varied interests in'em...ie; show people, money people, show/working people, working people and pet owners...you'll never get them all to see eye to eye...every group in general wants something different in'em... different types is how it will always be...depending interest & purpose...same with the CO, AB and many many others etc...its inpart the price for popularity...they all seem to change drastically when this happens...for one reason or another... hopefully in time more and more breeders and handlers will get involved with working their mastini in some meaningful form...regardless of what the standard says :wink:
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                      • Mike, that is a good analogy, but the difference is that all the BIG athletes you mention were and are just that: ATHLETES!! They are performance tested from a young age and if they perform they make it to the NFL! I don't think that any of us here have a problem with size. I think that the problems start when size comes at the expense of ability!! I myself would truly love an athletic and physically capable 200lb mastino!!! Best, ALV
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                        • alv-cc wrote [blockquote]Mike, that is a good analogy, but the difference is that all the BIG athletes you mention were and are just that: ATHLETES!! They are performance tested from a young age and if they perform they make it to the NFL! [/blockquote] [color=red]Point taken. HOWEVER, we cant forget athletes like corey stringer, who at 6'5" and 345 DIED during Minnesota Vikings training camp, from BEING TOO BIG and working TOO hard in the heat for his body to handle, and this was a man who did this his whole life. Which, sounds a helluva lot like what we are hearing about alot of mastino these days, dying after working. The lineman in football personify to a T, the short bursts of speed, power and fury, like it states in the neo standards. If these men, who ARE being raised and trained as combative athletes are dying from this, what is to be expected of dogs who arent being bred or tested for it, and are getting bigger at just about the same rate as the men are?? Mike[/color]
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                          • [quote=sodapop1124]i don't see it ever completely changing as a whole...too many people in this world with varied interests in'em...ie; show people, money people, show/working people, working people and pet owners...you'll never get them all to see eye to eye...every group in general wants something different in'em... different types is how it will always be...depending interest & purpose...same with the CO, AB and many many others etc...its inpart the price for popularity...they all seem to change drastically when this happens...for one reason or another... hopefully in time more and more breeders and handlers will get involved with working their mastini in some meaningful form...regardless of what the standard says :wink:[/quote] I dunno Darryl, my opinions on things have changed drastically in the last year- partially because of learning from HERE, and from people like you and Al.
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                            • How about this for a thought? What if there are already enough really good mastini out for the right qualified people? What if the mastini hoped for by people really doesn't need or should meet the demand. I have seen this in the APBT and for the last 10 years the american bulldog. people making and breeding "performance" animals when all they really needed at the most was to buy one, if even that. Dogs should not only be culled but prospective breeders should be culled as well. Is the full blown potent mastino a dog that needs to be bred in high numbers? Best regards, Blood and Sand
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                              • I'm not really into the typey overdone neo! I like what people here call the "neo of old." But my problem lies with the breeding of dogs for type and size without knowing if they can work! I 'd rather take a smaller dog that can work and live a long healthy life than a "typey" dog who is large but is plagued by health problems and can't work for sheit! I think it would be pretty cool to witness a 200lb mastino that can move and that is healthy!!! ALV
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                                • [quote=bloodandsand]How about this for a thought? What if there are already enough really good mastini out for the right qualified people? What if the mastini hoped for by people really doesn't need or should meet the demand. I have seen this in the APBT and for the last 10 years the american bulldog. people making and breeding "performance" animals when all they really needed at the most was to buy one, if even that. Dogs should not only be culled but prospective breeders should be culled as well. Is the full blown potent mastino a dog that needs to be bred in high numbers? Best regards, Blood and Sand[/quote] hell yes jodee.
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                                  • i appreciate that Nik :wink: ...your exactly the example of what i hope to see and hear more of...with the things you have planned...the people your starting to work with...and what i believe are your goals...you have the ability to make a difference on all levels...keep it up!! :D
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                                    • Mastini from days gone by...revisited and previously posted...from original thread arrone...copywrite of Il Colosseo name?? Don Brawn Ovidio...copywrite of Il Colosseo
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                                      • [quote="Wolf"] [color=blue]The desire to produce "beasts" in the Neo and Caucasian (or Hippos and Bears, respectively) has already seriously messed up the first and is starting to mess up the latter breed. People are impressed with large heads, broad shoulders, great mass and the overall look and vibe of Molossers, but many don't realize that such appearance was (as it should be) reserved for dogs that are fully mature, well over 4 years of age. Up until then, these dogs are supposed to look like normal and visibly functional un-exaggerated animals. The Neo, for instance, used to look nicely balanced, "under-typey" even in the past, at least until 4 years of age, when the size of the head and overall body mass would increase and the wrinkles become more pronounced. But since people are in awe of mature Neos of the past and apparently can't wait for a normal dog to simply grow up, the demand for the "over-typey" (or "old out of the box", as I like to call it) look has forced most breeders into producing non-functional, over-sized and hyper-typical mastini, while perfectly normal and correct dogs which are developing at a more natural rate are being ridiculed. Everyone wants a di Ponzano look, but most people only look at photos of fully mature di Ponzano dogs without realizing that those famous dogs (and most other strains) didn't look like that for the first 2 or 3 years of their lives at all. Same crap is happening in the Caucasian Ovcharka breed, where the new wave of "bear"-obsessed breeders are flooding the market with giant pups who look like, you guessed it - [u]bear cubs[/u], and grow to be ridiculously heavy, with super rich coats and enormous heads before even turning a year old! Who cares that their fat legs are getting shorter and shorter (like in the Neo breed) and their health is worsening (like in the Neo breed) and their lifespans getting shorter and shorter (like in the Neo breed)... So you basically have quite a vicious cycle at play, because when breeding dogs that look old before their time, the dogs interestingly enough don't live very long, so the pressure is on the breeders to produce dogs that look friggin' old at an even earlier age. As if that isn't bad enough, both breeds suffer from the same elitist attitude which demands outrageous prices for these dogs who sometimes die after only 2 years of age or get to live out their miserable handicapped lives until dropping dead at 4 or 5 years. And people pay ridiculous amounts of money for them... Now, if that isn't utterly retarded, I don't know what bloody is then.[/color] :[/quote] This needs repeating - and repeating - and repeating.
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                                        • [quote="Nancyk"][quote="Wolf"] [color=blue]The desire to produce "beasts" in the Neo and Caucasian (or Hippos and Bears, respectively) has already seriously messed up the first and is starting to mess up the latter breed. People are impressed with large heads, broad shoulders, great mass and the overall look and vibe of Molossers, but many don't realize that such appearance was (as it should be) reserved for dogs that are fully mature, well over 4 years of age. Up until then, these dogs are supposed to look like normal and visibly functional un-exaggerated animals. The Neo, for instance, used to look nicely balanced, "under-typey" even in the past, at least until 4 years of age, when the size of the head and overall body mass would increase and the wrinkles become more pronounced. But since people are in awe of mature Neos of the past and apparently can't wait for a normal dog to simply grow up, the demand for the "over-typey" (or "old out of the box", as I like to call it) look has forced most breeders into producing non-functional, over-sized and hyper-typical mastini, while perfectly normal and correct dogs which are developing at a more natural rate are being ridiculed. Everyone wants a di Ponzano look, but most people only look at photos of fully mature di Ponzano dogs without realizing that those famous dogs (and most other strains) didn't look like that for the first 2 or 3 years of their lives at all. Same crap is happening in the Caucasian Ovcharka breed, where the new wave of "bear"-obsessed breeders are flooding the market with giant pups who look like, you guessed it - [u]bear cubs[/u], and grow to be ridiculously heavy, with super rich coats and enormous heads before even turning a year old! Who cares that their fat legs are getting shorter and shorter (like in the Neo breed) and their health is worsening (like in the Neo breed) and their lifespans getting shorter and shorter (like in the Neo breed)... So you basically have quite a vicious cycle at play, because when breeding dogs that look old before their time, the dogs interestingly enough don't live very long, so the pressure is on the breeders to produce dogs that look friggin' old at an even earlier age. As if that isn't bad enough, both breeds suffer from the same elitist attitude which demands outrageous prices for these dogs who sometimes die after only 2 years of age or get to live out their miserable handicapped lives until dropping dead at 4 or 5 years. And people pay ridiculous amounts of money for them... Now, if that isn't utterly retarded, I don't know what bloody is then.[/color] :[/quote] This needs repeating - and repeating - and repeating.[/quote] I don't wanna sound overly geeky, but his argument actually has a profound genetic component. It is now scientifically known that the apparent differences that we generally observe in the phenotypes of various dog breeds are based on shifted temporal gene expression patterns during fetal development (and thereafter). Through selection, genes responsible for establishing specific body parts are basically shifted in their timely peak expression as well as maximum level of expression. Simply stated, this is essentially how some muzzles turn out to become long, while others remain short. We are basically messing with the gene regulatory network. The modulating variable here is time. So far so good. Problems however emerge when we inadvertently modify the aging process of a dog itself. By shifting a dogs appearance to attain a more mature looking specimen at a much earlier stage, we likely accelerate the entire aging 'program' rather than single gene patterns. With this global strategy we inherit problems that we never really bargained for. I would go on now with what is fundamentally wrong with this new trend and desire to achieve impressive adolescent dogs with the looks of fully matured ones, but Al already did a superb job there, so......ditto. ;-) Dan
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                                          • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                                            • Possible that the people who have been around for a while know this. BUT- Human nature and especially of late, that people want faster, bigger, ect. Does it really matter to some? I guess after they loose a dog at 4 yrs old it will be.
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                                              • The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.
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                                                • This topic was so good and interesting for such a long time. I would like to try and get it jump started again. So I will pose the following question: What is your opinion on how to best return to the old type Neo? I am looking for input about anything from what modern lines might best be suited, what type of breeding practices might be best, what other breeds could be used to help restore the old phenotype and preserve the true temperament as it once was... Basiclally what do you all think can or should be done to imrove the overall health and physical ability of this breed.
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                                                  • Yes, the physical ability can be made greater by selective breedings. The health can be better with testing and more testing, culling and more culling. The neo 'of old' though? Nope, not for me. How bout neo's from the 80's and early 90's. LOL
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                                                    • Bubba_Gizmo, this is not exactly giving much input appertaining to your questions, but just out of curiosity, most people who posted previously gave an opinion on Aronne di Ponzano. What's yours on this dog? Also, what do you have to say about the dog posted by Sodapop on the thread Blood and Sand started "Lack of true potent mastino a myth?"
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                                                      • I'll post it here as well...
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                                                        • Who is this dog Soda?? Looks like a nice heavy structure. Nice head. Like to see more and larger! :wink:
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                                                          • I think all of those dogs posted by soda in this thread are superb specimens. When I use the term "Neo of old" it is these type of dogs that I am referencing. Now this last dog that soda posted is ok, I like the head, but I do not really care for the rear structure of the dog. It does have a very nice head and the wrinkle is not overdone. That dog also has a little too much mass for my taste in a working dog. But regardless of what I don't specifically like about the dog, it is of the type that I would be interested in owning and I do find it suitable for breeding, based solely on phenotype.
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                                                            • [quote=4myneo]Who is this dog Soda?? Looks like a nice heavy structure. Nice head. Like to see more and larger! :wink:[/quote] its Antimo of the Thatch Roof...
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                                                              • [quote=Bubba_Gizmo] I am looking for input about anything from what modern lines might best be suited, what type of breeding practices might be best, what other breeds could be used to help restore the old phenotype and preserve the true temperament as it once was... [/quote] Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue... :wink:
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                                                                • Well, Bubba, Antimo of the Thatch Roof certainly does not look like a 'neo of old' to me.
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                                                                  • Yes, you are quite right 4myneo. I checked out the website. Antimo isn’t exactly as he appears in the pic sodapop posted. By the way, is that a pic of one of your dogs in your avatar? - Denno.
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                                                                    • Yes, that is Arria.
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                                                                      • [quote=Denno]Yes, you are quite right 4myneo. I checked out the website. Antimo isn’t exactly as he appears in the pic sodapop posted. By the way, is that a pic of one of your dogs in your avatar? - Denno.[/quote] ditto denno...those damn misleading pics anyways hehe...ya he does look like any other mess later on...but as a hypothetical situation...its all ya can really do with pics is illustrate...but "what if" that was him as a matured adult...with what "appears" to be a powerful looking structure...and not even looking at his head...is why i posted that one and that reason only...
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                                                                        • Arri-
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