Why Sarplaninac fighting lines?
´cause APBT´s are not the only good fighting dogs. Sarplaninacas and other LGD´s can be great fighting dogs so unfortunately they are used as such for pit fightings envolving money.
Replies (29)
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I've noticed that some dogs in the gallery are of "fighting lines". Please let me say first that I am not familiar with those Sarplaninac fighting lines at all, nor am I interested in starting the typically charged debate "Why dog fighting?". My curiousity is rather "Why do some people in the Balkan areas use Sarplaninac dogs for fighting?". I do understand that there is a difference between "testing" working dogs for selection, which apparently some shepherds perform to test their males, and blunt "pit fighting" for money. So only with regard to "pit fights", wouldn't people quickly resort to APBT for example, if money's at stake? So, why fighting guard dogs if in today's time it's not a problem to get an APBT instead? I'd appreciate some expert opinion on this. Thanks.
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´cause APBT´s are not the only good fighting dogs. Sarplaninacas and other LGD´s can be great fighting dogs so unfortunately they are used as such for pit fightings envolving money. -
It might have to do with tradition. Also I would think that the injuries are less that if they would fight pits. http://www.lovacko-d-bistrica-zupa.com/borba%20pasa/image001.htm The last photo is kind of funny! P.S. I hope that this link is no problem to post.
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To answer the thread question with a single sentence: It is a combination of the Turkish, Albanian and modern western influences.
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well, the reason they dont use apbts is becasue when apbts fight nothing magical happens, but when giants colide lik Sarplaninac vs kangal now that much more worth watching,i have witnessed bully kutta vs. tibetian mastiff in real life and theres no rush like to giants wresteling in front of your eyes.. :twisted: :wink:
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i have seen pics of a sarplaninac killing a pitbull plus ther is a video of one killing two wolves and who won between the tm and bk
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please stop with your nonsence.and also remember there is a diffrence between a pitbull and a american pitbull terrier..also the apbt is a much diffrent beast than a wolf....there is no comparision
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Killing two wolves?In the wild,in a pit? In a row? In what country?I´m spanish and know about the exageration and myths about the encounters and fights between spanish mastiffs and wolves.Yes,there are dogs very capable to kill adult wolves,but in the real world REAL fights to death are very,very rare.Sorry my english. greetings from Spain.
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[blockquote]Killing two wolves?In the wild,in a pit? In a row? In what country?[/blockquote] Yes, the Sarplaninac killed two wolves. In the wild, and in the winter, and those two wolves approached the flock that was guarded by that dog. Yes you can say it was in a row, because when that Sarplaninac jumped on the first wolf, few other dogs sorounded the other beast in orther not to let it to escape but they didn't fight it, and when that famouse Sarplaninac killed the first one, he jumped on second wolf and finished him to. The country is former Yugoslavia, and that old video is taped in 1957. or 1963. (I forgot the year) on Sarplanina mountains. Every Sarplaninac breeder have that video in their possesion, so it is really nothing new in Sarplaninac world but it can be unusual and odd to persons who are not familiar with the breed.
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Ive seen the video,and it is impressive footage. Although the wolf is a attack and retreat animal and isnt created for dog on dog combat,so a domestic k9s ability to kill a wild wolf shouldnt come as a great suprise.. Silverwolf, So youve seen photos of a sar killing a pitbull,i ask you this,how great of a accomplishment is it when a 150pd plus dog kills a 45 pound fighting dog...That is a cowards game...Very sad stuff to brag about..
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Keith I am with u to apoint. It is an un fair fight for the pitty to go up hill about 50 or 60 lbs. But it is a rarity. if impossible, to see a pure sarplaninac from old working lines that weighs 150lbs! As we all know, 95% of people exagerate the weight of their dogs. The Volkodav, or Caucasian Ovcharka can reach well over 200lbs, and r very simliar in appearance to the sar. and since they and st bernard and newfie have been added to the new sar, its easy to see 150+ pounders. And heres y MOST real sarplaninac fanceirs will laugh at the huge dogs, because they cannot do what the smaller 100-120 lbers can. I mean u take a 150lber or more and move him to the mountains, not only will the poor old farmer not have enought money to feed him and he will starve, but the constant movement thru the mountains, the up and down hills and jumping from cliff to cliff. the unevern terrain would wreak havoc on the poor dogs joints and bones and he wouldnt last. But to get bak to the point, it is unfair for a lil 60lbs pitty to fight an equally conditioned and traind 110lbs sar. Altho the pit is the epitome of pound for pound fighters, he is a living being, not a god. By that i mean, they have limits that even pittys cant overcome sometimes. The reason people brag about a sar or co beating a pit is because of the pits reputation. Plain and simple, thats it! If u put a 110 lbs sar against a co like archi, who happens to be 225lbs, the sar would get womped on! Hate to say it as i LOVE the sarplaninac, but every dog has limits. the video is from 1957
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I agree with Wolf's statement. I also think the reason APBTs are not used is that a lot of these people use dogs within their areas. Simply a matter of resources. Please don't let this discussion deteriorate to a machismo show about what breed can beat up on whose.... :roll:
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[blockquote]Please don't let this discussion deteriorate to a machismo show about what breed can beat up on whose.... [/blockquote] I agree, that is childish thing to do, but I just have to say one more thing here. As much as I love Sars, I have to say that I've saw many fights where Sars were beaten by much smaller APBT's, and that's true also. However, it would be the best if people heve never matched those two breeds, because it simplly aint right thing to do.
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First of all thank you all for posting… :) After reading this discussion, I realize that I should clarify some things... When I started this thread, I wasn’t really interested in which breed beats which other breed - I am sorry, if it may have appeared that way. My question resulted rather out of personal frustration and a lack of understanding, why these awesome livestock guardians are used for pit fighting in the first place. In this frustration I still attempted to avoid open criticism, which possibly made the true intentions of my question somewhat ambiguous. I’m sure we all appreciate the mighty Sarplaninac and its combat capabilites, but that is not the point here. My concern is that the original purpose of a Sar is something else than to fight in a pit. In this process, there are certain qualities, which can be unintentionally jeopardized by such questionable activities. First and foremost, the problem is reflected in the “primary motivation” that leads a Sar to engage in fighting. What would be the incentive for a Sar to fight with absolute force, if he’s off his own territory and without anything of importance to defend?! The betted money of his “master” is surely too abstract for a dog to defend. So what other quality is evluated, if it is not defense? What dogs are favored as champions then? A slight shift in this “primary motivation” might have severe implications for the breed. This basic motivation would be different for breeds that have been traditionally bred to obtain dogs with a very high “gameness”, like some well known fighting breeds (I will avoid to specify a particular breed here, as I don’t want to trigger another one-on-one comparison :wink: ). OK, here I have to clarify that I am not trying to advocate that it is less cruel to use fighting dogs for dog fighting rather than LGD breeds…to the individual dog this won’t matter really. But the motivation of these fighting breeds is (highly simplified) the fight itself, so at least those people involved in dog fighting wouldn’t mess too much with the breed specific personalities. Utilizing Sars for pit fighting with possible subsequent breeding selection for “gameness” can become highly detrimental for a breed that is needed to defend the property by staying close to the livestock, not getting too excited about the opportunity to fight or potentially even straying around and following a predator. In the real world, these dogs will HAVE to work in teams and coordinate their positions when attacked by wild predators. These are complex personality traits so their actions have to be reliable and consistent. Messing with those traditional personalities can have terrible consequences. Being too game can actually turn out to be counter-productive. I will not even go into the outcrossing of Sarplaninci with other fighting breeds as this to me is completely brain dead (ok, so I am openly criticizing afterall :lol: ). Also, there is no point in matching a Sar with any other breed. What deeper purpose would that have?! Other than to satisfy some macho fantasies I mean. Wolf has nailed it as he accurately pointed out, where negative influences most likely are coming from. I just wanted to stress that using Sars for pit fighting is not simply “harmless entertainment” or as some urbanites might believe a darwinistic form of improvement, but can actually have severe consequences for the breed, if that urban "champion" blood is reintroduced into the Sarplaninac genepool. So even if someone is not opposed to dog fighting and it happens to be legal in that respective country, one might not be doing this breed a favor at all. Selection should be based on dogs that have primarily proven themselves in real work - not solely on their fighting abilities in artificial environments. If you want to improve your dogs, go ahead and test them in scenarios, which are relevant to the real world - just like in the old days. :wink: Regards to all, Dan
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Igmuska, I believe ur last comment was aimed at me. I said it before and ill say it again, im done argueing over whos the best fighting dog B S, end of story! MY whole reply was to say jus how IGNORANT it is for people to match dogs that are so blatently out of eachothers weight range, and y the bigger isnt always the better! Also, it was to show that pitties, and all dogs for that matter, have limitations that they just cannot surpass at times! THATS all i was trying to say, maybe i shoulda specified or cleared it up some more so people wouldnt think this will turn into yet another never ending river flowing with B S spewing from all angles!!!!! Hope this wasnt to harsh and i hope u dont take it as me tearing into u, as im not. Im jus tryin to clear up my point of veiw. :wink: Danny, Im completely and 100% with u on ur last post, and as always u hit the nail right square on the head! Great post and great points made!! :D Mike
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Dan well said!!!!!! I have so much to say but i will pass this time, it will get out of control. Unfortunately I dont know how to hold back on certain things. Dawg you were spot on as well . Anyway ..........thats all before I start... :twisted:
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No worries Mike, I'm not that sensitive, :wink: and my comment wasn't aimed at you or anyone specific. I was just trying to save a legitimate topic and question from deteriorating (as I have seen so many other threads do). Well said DAN!!! I agree wholly with you. All LGDs should have a sharp temperment, but not game. This also makes me question "testing" that is done in countries around the world with other LGDs. I have heard of Sar tests and believe those to be closest to the dogs actual function. 8)
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most sars weigh 80 pound and it wasnt in a pit the sar was guarding its flock against the wolves and the pics of the sar killing the apbt is true and it wasnt a massive sar and the reason i mentioned this because in someones reply they said they fight sars not apbts because they dont do as much damage
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where did i bragg about the sar killing a apbt i mentioned it so people would stop underestimating the sar and other lgds and working lgds are game they have to be to fight of predators they just cant walk away when it gets hot or ther will be loads of dead sheep and these poor farmers as you say have massive dogs like kangal 150 and up in weight and like i said before i only mentioned it because people think the apbt are unbeatable dont get me wrong they are great at fighting but not unbeatable and also put a apbt is guarding its flock then you will see if a lgd is game
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Why is it so unusual to you that a Shar could kill a wolf??? I mean, that was the purpouse to have those dogs, to protect the sheep/whatever from the predators of any kind (even bear) in the old times, even nowdays. Just compare the size of an everage Shar and average wolf (male). Shar is much larger and stronger in built, the only thing that might be against it is that wolfs live in a pack, attack in a pack and live in a pack, very very rarely will wolf go for it on its own and that's usually after its rejected for some reason from its pack (if you read about wolves way, of life, the ranks and statuses they must gain in their pack etc. you'll know what I mean). On its own, wolf stands no chance against shar. On the other side, I witnessed shar killing a pit in a park. Pit attacked and came out of nowehere, but what was left of him afterwards was not a pretty sight. I can't say that shar escaped with no injuries. It wasn't a provoked fight it was a result of irresponsible pit owner who let his agressive dog walk freely in a park. Don't want to express my opinion about people who fight dogs, I might offend someone in a very nasty way.
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just goes to show that apbt can get beat by these lgds they are not to be underestimated by man predators or other dogs
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silverwolf,yer a fence walker,get over it,..........
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what is ur problem how am i a fence walker i made a cstatement about sars saying what they are capable of doing so you get over it just because im not apbt fan or wannabe like you so you get over it
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also the sar that killed the apbt doesnt look a big dog and no wer near 15olb it was a medium sized dog to look at it you would think it was a collie german shepherd mix
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before i go whats a fencewalker
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A fencewalker, if i am not mistaken, is a person, who kumps from forum to forum, or post to post, and just writes to se themselves have an opinion or a voice... ALSO, the sarplaninac was not a dog designed for IN THE PIT COMBAT, it was designed for work as a LIVESTOCK GUARDING DOG, and had to WORK IN PACKS with OTHER DOGS... WHere on gods green earth would a poor shepherd in the top of a mointain back in serbia or macedonia or italy or russia, want to have a dog, who would destroy all of his other dogs, when 1 dog cannot protect against an ENTIRE PACK OF WOLVES?? They could not afford to keep buying or trading for new dogs if their "champion" keeps killing them, now can they?? Did they want their dogs to be sissies, hell no, but did they want them to go around, provoking fights and killing their pack members, again hell no, they wanted them to NOT do or be these above mentioned things, and to be ballanced, and save their energy for when the time arrived, and then ATTACK like something out of a stephen king novel, or as i like to call it, cujo's nightmare!!! These dogs, Shars, Cos, Caos, Sylvan, Grt Pyr, Kangal.... etc... Should not be fought in the pit, period!!! Its done only for money, and as for the "traditional testing", BS, again, how could a dog, trained to attack other dogs, be used in a pack?? I understand that a fight between 2 males will figure out who is the bigger and stronger male, but bigger isnt always better, and especially against wolves, in order to defeat a wolf in combat, a dog MUST be QUICK enough to not get bitten... So even if its a 250lbs, no fat cao (hypothetical ofcourse), How can it possibly be fast enough not to get its throat ripped out by the wolf?? And god forbid a bear come along, those Big dogs r no where near fast enough to dodge their paws and claws and jaws... Thats a big meal for that bear, or pack of wolves... My point is, in order for an lgd to be completly effective, it must be balanced, and be able to work in harmony in a pack with other dogs, to do just that, protect the livestock. NOW, it is also known, that the other dogs in the pack dont usually have to be lgd's, just hav to have enough testicular fortitude to confront and hold a wolf long enough for the bigger and much nastier and better fighting lgd to come in and finish the wolf off.. Now i know your gonna say im contradicting myself, but im not. LGD's in a pack, in the traditional and old ways, r going by instinct, and r tolerating the presence of the other dogs in the pack... FIGHTING LGDS r trained to FIGHT ANY DOG around them, so how can a TRAINED FIGHTING LGD CHAMPION work as a traditional and effective lgd?? It cant..... No shepherd, as i said it earlier, would want nor would he tolerate a dog who kept killing his other, and sometimes better, dogs... its a waste of time for him to feed him.......
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who cares if a 150 pound dog beat a shrimpy pit bull that weighs 40 pounds . even manny pacquaio or floyd mayweather the best pound for pound boxers today would still lose to mike tyson even though tyson is washed up and old hes just to big for them !!!!!!!!enough said! pit bulls arent super dogs there just the gamemest pound per pound dogs on earth .
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I agree... that being said, i believe a good pit will give any dog a run for its$ Fence walker is some one who can fall on either side of a issue or is "on the fence"about ceartin issues.someone full of unceartenty and contradiction..
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[quote=silverwolf]before i go whats a fencewalker[/quote] Sorry Silverwolf - I did not see this question before. Fence walker - typically refers to someone who does not take position on any issue... or are afraid to reveal their true beliefs. It is not necessarily a bad thing because - I often encourage the admins on this site to not take sides and stay neutral.
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