Training vs Temperment

well they are famous because of the fact that they decide :D :D I also think that we can interfere their behaviour with a good socialisation.let them experience a lot and show them what is normal for you and what not. With rescues you dont had that chance

I do agree.I dont think that bite training isnt the right training for these dogs

[quote=Meriam]Last summer I got my knees and underarms pealed in trying to prevent my male dog to eat up our neighbour. My other bitch flew trough two glass windows last winter when our adult son come home. My Little Diva, the smallest of the dogs, got somehow outside when we had a chimney-sweep climbing down from the roof. In a second she jumped on him, turned him down and actually bet him several times. When I got her off she still refused let her grip of poor fellows hand. This accident cost our insurance company quite a bit money. [/quote] Sounds to me like you have a serious liability on your hands, and unless you want to get sued again. Training is mandatory, they need to be taught what a threat is and need to heed the "out" voice command!!! Or I can all but guarantee there will be other "accidents". In my opinion as a trainer...PP training is more important, with dogs that have this tendency...that being said the demand for a very experienced trainer and one preferably with experience with this breed is critical...so as not to increase problems of this kind but to decrease through confidence and understanding of what you expect from them!

Jackbull - Those dogs COs & the other LGD breeds are NOT"wired" like Sport dog breeds. They just are NOT going to stop on voice command. Go to the main forum & read the Male or Female thread. BTW - I do agree with your thoughs if this was a differant breed.

Got ya Platz...I didn't realize what we were talking about with this dog specifally. I have no experience working with this dog, however from the sounds of it the Akita is similar in temperment and I do have experience working with this dog. I'll quote something a very good trainer told me when I brought him my Chow and later an Akita..."boy you do like to make things hard on yourself don't ya" we were protection training these dogs and it was a huge challenge. And now that I know what we were talking about, I do agree with you, they will not heed a voice command "out". However I am still of the same opinion. These dogs are a huge liability, and although they will never be "push button" dogs...I think training can only help decrease that liability, not vice versa. By the way, we did have quite a bit of success with the chow...he had perfect obedience on lead...and a decent "out", it was his dog agression that was the problem ...several bites !!! a huge headache !!! but overall a great dog. As a professional I swore I would never own another dog that was such a huge liability. If I want that kind of liability I will keep TIGERS or LIONS !!!

[quote=Platz]Jackbull - Those dogs COs & the other LGD breeds are NOT"wired" like Sport dog breeds. They just are NOT going to stop on voice command. Go to the main forum & read the Male or Female thread. BTW - I do agree with your thoughs if this was a differant breed.[/quote] True the wiring is different but dogs will stop on voice command with enough training.

[quote=JackBull"][quote="Meriam]Last summer I got my knees and underarms pealed in trying to prevent my male dog to eat up our neighbour. My other bitch flew trough two glass windows last winter when our adult son come home. My Little Diva, the smallest of the dogs, got somehow outside when we had a chimney-sweep climbing down from the roof. In a second she jumped on him, turned him down and actually bet him several times. When I got her off she still refused let her grip of poor fellows hand. This accident cost our insurance company quite a bit money. [/quote] Sounds to me like you have a serious liability on your hands, and unless you want to get sued again. Training is mandatory, they need to be taught what a threat is and need to heed the "out" voice command!!! Or I can all but guarantee there will be other "accidents". In my opinion as a trainer...PP training is more important, with dogs that have this tendency...that being said the demand for a very experienced trainer and one preferably with experience with this breed is critical...so as not to increase problems of this kind but to decrease through confidence and understanding of what you expect from them![/quote] Chris, kudos for the "training is mandatory" advice. BTW, the post you responded to seems to be about Central Asian Ovcharka. You and I conversed in the chatroom about Caucasians, a different flockguardian breed. Meriam, it is rough to start chastizing when people share openly on forum so I'll wish you speed and good luck getting the dogs under control.

[quote=Meriam]Thanks Stacey, I am already used to these kind of opinion among people here IRL. The most usual idea is that we are too lazy and careless dog owners to train our dogs to civil behavior. It seems to be really hard for ordinary dog owners to understand that this is not a question of discipline and they willingly come with several advices and opinions about training. And friends seems to have forgotten that we have during last three decades had several well behaving dogs, that we have not suffered sudden amnesia how to train. Regards Meriam with three lovely beasts[/quote] I was wishing you luck but supporting Chris's recommendation to train because I am a big believer in training. See some trained Central Asian Ovcharka at: http://www.maxomagic.com 1 in training for PSP http://www.maxomagic.com/PSA.htm "As Edina and "TK" enter the training field, they are surprised by a man from behind the door. "TK" immediately identifies the threat and engages. Shortly thereafter, he is called off and walks away. As you can see, the training emphasizes, identifying the threat and disengaging on command."

[quote=JackBull]"boy you do like to make things hard on yourself don't ya" [/quote] The quote from my friend again, ...you have really stacked the deck against yourself in this situation. You are working with a breed that is prone to being difficult to train in the first place and to add further difficulty you are working with rescued dogs! Rescuing dogs is usually done by professionals that have programs for training them... because usually rescued dogs have behavior problems, and sometimes severe aggression problems. Those that can't be placed, because they are too far gone, in our program were put to work...as guard dogs. Now...I don't know what your backround in training dogs is...it sounds like you have trained your dog's in the past yourself, and that is great. However special circumstances...this breed coupled with being rescued dog's that have shown excessive aggression and atleast one attack ...(qualifies as special circumstances to me) require specialized professional training. You may not be able to train these dogs to heed an "out" voice command...you may not be able to train them to out period, but you have the responsibility you accepted by rescuing them to get them into a specialized professional program. So that at the very least they are not breaking through 2 glass windows to get at your son! would we be talking about whether or not ongoing training was necessary then?...I am not trying to be insulting, and these may be things you have already considered...and maybe their behaviors at this point can't be corrected (remember I said we had ones that were too far gone) and in that case...all you can do is take the proper steps to keep them from having any further accidents. I hope this helps...it is intended with the best possible intentions, I am not chastising you, I am just going by the information you have posted in the forum, if I have misinterpreted something please forgive me. And please give these dogs the best possible chance by seeking a professional opinion....he/she will want to evaluate the dogs before you spend a penny, so has not to waste your time on a dog too far gone. In short 'yes' IMO you are obligated to keep training until the behavior has been corrected (not breaking through windows) or until you know that nothing more can be done. Why rescue them in the first place if you only intend to take them half way...or just keep them locked away????

[quote=Meriam]Last summer I got my knees and underarms pealed in trying to prevent my male dog to eat up our neighbour. One nigh I was with my dog by the gate to check in the mailbox. The gate was open and I had my dog in the leash. Our neighbour were not really sober and was passing by, my dog stand up and warned him by barks. Afterwards turn out that the bloke had got an idea in friendly meaning to make my dog back out a bit, but it went to a disaster. He took few quick steps toward us with arms broad open and yelled something. Before I realised my dog jumped on him and I flew as a leaf after. The chap flew on his back with my dog laying on his chest with teeth on his throat. Without my husbands help I would not had a chance to get my dog off the bloke. My other bitch flew trough two glass windows last winter when our adult son come home. She had not met him before and he was stepping inside the house without forewarning. Fortunately he had thick leader jacket on and did not get hurt before my husband got her away from him. She is still very suspicious and do not trust on him. My Little Diva, the smallest of the dogs, got somehow outside when we had a chimney-sweep climbing down from the roof. In a second she jumped on him, turned him down and actually bet him several times. When I got her off she still refused let her grip of poor fellows hand. This accident cost our insurance company quite a bit money. But it was an accident, she accidentally got out from the house. But it did not ease the quilt I felt for the poor bloke. As said - these has been misunderstandings from my dogs behalf. I do not desire to see what they may accomplish in real danger .[/quote] AND "I happen to be professional behavior therapist. And have been working with different rescue animals - mostly dogs and horses almost three decades. So I do believe that I till this day know what I am dealing with. " :?: :?: :?: I'd offer that your not very Objective & Realistic about your own dog's behavior.

[quote=Meriam] Something I have to correct, I am a psychotherapist. I am not specialized on animals - although I do have worked also with rescue animals with behavior problems during almost three decades.[/quote] Ma'am with all do respect, you are soliciting advice on a dog forum...and in all fairness you didn't tell anybody what your backround was. That being said I respect your expertise as psychotherapist...however, we are not talking about abused children. A certain amount of your professional experience may apply, but I sense that your approach is clinical as if they were humans...and that just won't work. Your education is not designed to treat animals. Nor should it be applied to animals as if they were the same...I am sure you understand this. You are being very presumptious and arrogant to think that you know what you are doing, because you help people. You are out of your league, dealing with these dogs. Your arrogance as already got one man mauled...and almost got your son mauled....you claim responsibility, but aren't taking responsibility to get them into a program with a skilled "animal" professional !!!!!!! How many more people have to get hurt ???? Before you get it. I'll give you that you seem to understand what your animals are thinking...but you do not understand how to correct their behavior..."these poor little darlings" empathy is not what they need...it is only what somebody needs to effectively begin their training. It is a two part program...you have the first part, but you are missing the second part!!! Professional Dog Training specifically dealing with Traumatized Behavior Problems. Here's the last thing that I will say, do you believe you could rescue...say a Mountain Lion, or a Bear, or a Wolf, because you are a psychotherapist ??? Why then would you presume the same about dogs who have been bred to kill these animals ???? As for what you lack realism or objectivity??? BOTH

[quote=Meriam]May I ask which part of my opinion I do lack of realism or objectivity? ... ...I do have worked also with rescue animals with behavior problems during almost three decades.[/quote] Anyone with 30 years in dogs, anybreed, recue or not should know enough about what they are working with to NOT put the dog or people in harms way. The way you wrote you post you seem to make excuses for the behavior. I don't feel that is being objective. The drunken bloke incident - You have 30 years experience, you should know at this point how much dog you can or can not handle. Any dominate breed dog capible of being a manstopper require higher level of responciblity. EVEN when talking a casual walk to the post box. The broken glass incident - Are you telling me this dog never, ever, hit a door or window at a precieved threat prior to this incident? Are you telling me with your 30 years experience the thought never crossed your mind that a LGD might do something like this? Or that you've never heard of this behavior? The Chimney-sweep - You acknowledge you error and every one invoulved was extremely fortunate. Had the Sweep be severly mauled or worse. I don't think your 30 years of experience would have faired well with a jury of your peers. Your level of precaution and objectivity is not what I would expect from a person with your experience level.

[quote=Meriam] Have you ever worked with a rescue LGD? It takes time and hard work to get them behave civil [/quote] Here is the story about Cezar, from death row dog in Canada, to multi Best in Show champion and breed ambassador: http://www.cezar.us/

Meriam - The point, which I thought was clear was, none of us can ever take for granted how are dogs might or will react. We have to be proactive, not allowing our dogs to get in trouble in the 1st place. Someone with 30 years experience should know that & live by it. Your own comment, "you never trust them to be in you command in 100%, you have to consider every eventualities and have eyes on your neck. " Is exactly what I'm reffering to :wink: So we apperately do agree. :D Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?

[quote=Platz] Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Head halter with a light leash parallel to regular leash and collar will give power steering.

Let me try another tac... I personally have trained protection dogs, have handled guard dogs that have never been given a correction in their life ( that's what makes them guard dogs they are supremely alpha ) I have trained obedience...professionally I mean people pay me, I was an assistant trainer for many years prior to that. I worked Man/Dog Patrol, I was in the military, I was in Law Enforcement, I am a Certified Protection Specialist ( Bodyguard ) I understand what dogs think...most of the time, I understand what they are trying to communicate...again, most of the time....and I would not begin to presume that with all my experience I could train these dogs by myself !!!! I would want some help!!! I'll bet Platz with all his experience would also want some help...I would want to bring them to someone who specializes in LGD's and in behavior problems. Someone who has been educated specifically to train dogs and correct their behavior...not just understand it! I'll give you that, you understand your dogs behavior, and from the sounds of it, are doing a fair job with the training...now stop being so impressed by your education and get some help with them! You obviously do not know it all, so stop wasting time on a forum giving yourself the illusion of getting help...and get some real professional help with your dogs.... And you still haven't answered the question...would we be having this discussion if your bitch had actually got to your son and mauled him??? I think not, you might have then realized you need some help with these dogs! I hope and pray it doesn't come to that.

[quote=EsqCaucasians"][quote="Platz] Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Head halter with a light leash parallel to regular leash and collar will give power steering.[/quote] That might just the the most irresponcxible advice I've ever read in regaurding handling an a high defence drive dog. The male dog in question, in the owners own words,......... "Before I realised my dog jumped on him and I flew as a leaf after. The chap flew on his back with my dog laying on his chest with teeth on his throat. Without my husbands help I would not had a chance to get my dog off the bloke. " We all have contributions we can offer this community. When it comes to importing dogs and marketing a Kennel.....Your're the 1st person I want to read. Your're out of your element in discusions about practical application of Gaurd & PP work. Please, before your advice gets some one hurt.... [color=red]STOP[/color]

Meriam - You have a large, powerful, high defence drive dog that can very close mauling a human. Think about this: Denial - The psychological process by which human beings protect themselves from things which threaten them by blocking knowledge of those things from their awareness. It is a defense which distorts reality; it keeps us from feeling the pain and uncomfortable truth about things we do not want to face. If we cannot feel or see the consequences of our actions, then everything is fine and we can continue to live without making any changes. You have a very real problem, be honest with yourself before someone is seriously hurt. You won't want to spend the rest of you life this a mauling or death of a human on your conscience.

http://www.petreels.com/watch/978998032/BAILEY-ROCKS!!!!!

[quote=JackBull] I would want some help!!! I'll bet Platz with all his experience would also want some help...I would want to bring them to someone who specializes in LGD's and in behavior problems. Someone who has been educated specifically to train dogs and correct their behavior...not just understand it! [/quote] Have on many occassions sought out mentors to help me with my own dogs. Life is about learning; when you stop learning, you die. - Tom Clancy

[quote=Platz"][quote="EsqCaucasians"][quote="Platz] Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Head halter with a light leash parallel to regular leash and collar will give power steering.[/quote] That might just the the most irresponcxible advice I've ever read in regaurding handling an a high defence drive dog. The male dog in question, in the owners own words,......... "Before I realised my dog jumped on him and I flew as a leaf after. The chap flew on his back with my dog laying on his chest with teeth on his throat. Without my husbands help I would not had a chance to get my dog off the bloke. " We all have contributions we can offer this community. When it comes to importing dogs and marketing a Kennel.....Your're the 1st person I want to read. Your're out of your element in discusions about practical application of Gaurd & PP work. Please, before your advice gets some one hurt.... [color=red]STOP[/color] [/quote] Try to be more civil. You asked about "dealing" with a dog in public, not guard and pp work. I suggested adding a second collar to the first, a head halter in addition to the choke collar, with two leashes, the leash from the halter a light line so the two leashes together are not bulky. That way the dog can be gotten safely to training classes, vet, etc. If the situation is even more dire, a dog can be additionally muzzled and/or choke collar traded for a prong collar. For your information, I successfully rescue and rehome LGD for years and use the double leash with choke collar and head halter together very well. I also import ADULT dogs from Russia. Used correctly the double leash, choke (or prong for very strong dogs) + halter, gives excellent control over a dog without having to use alot of muscle power which I don't care to ever have to exert on my end of the leash. These dogs can still manage damage wearing a muzzle alone, unless there is control to the top of the muzzle. Same principle as controlling a horse. If you are saying that this dog shouldn't ever go in public again then state that instead of asking "how" in a question, then jumping down my throat for offering a practical solution to the question of "how" it can be done.

[quote=EsqCaucasians"][quote="Platz"][quote="EsqCaucasians"][quote="Platz] Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Head halter with a light leash parallel to regular leash and collar will give power steering.[/quote] That might just the the most irresponcxible advice I've ever read in regaurding handling an a high defence drive dog. The male dog in question, in the owners own words,......... "Before I realised my dog jumped on him and I flew as a leaf after. The chap flew on his back with my dog laying on his chest with teeth on his throat. Without my husbands help I would not had a chance to get my dog off the bloke. " We all have contributions we can offer this community. When it comes to importing dogs and marketing a Kennel.....Your're the 1st person I want to read. Your're out of your element in discusions about practical application of Gaurd & PP work. Please, before your advice gets some one hurt.... [color=red]STOP[/color] [/quote] Try to be more civil. You asked about "dealing" with a dog in public, not guard and pp work. I suggested adding a second collar to the first, a head halter in addition to the choke collar, with two leashes, the leash from the halter a light line so the two leashes together are not bulky. That way the dog can be gotten safely to training classes, vet, etc. If the situation is even more dire, a dog can be additionally muzzled and/or choke collar traded for a prong collar. For your information, I successfully rescue and rehome LGD for years and use the double leash with choke collar and head halter together very well. I also import ADULT dogs from Russia. Used correctly the double leash, choke (or prong for very strong dogs) + halter, gives excellent control over a dog without having to use alot of muscle power which I don't care to ever have to exert on my end of the leash. These dogs can still manage damage wearing a muzzle alone, unless there is control to the top of the muzzle. Same principle as controlling a horse. If you are saying that this dog shouldn't ever go in public again then state that instead of asking "how" in a question, then jumping down my throat for offering a practical solution to the question of "how" it can be done.[/quote] I very much agree with all that you say,good advice from someone with breed specific expertise

Stacey - I didn't ask, "about "dealing" with a dog in public" as an open question for discussion. But, your ego once again over rode your reading comprehension. I asked a very specific question to the OP about her dog: [quote=Platz]Meriam - Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Not surprisingly, you try to hi-jack the thread and make it about yourself. Civily yours, Platz :wink:

[quote=Meriam]Is it not easy to give advices and opinions on a forum without really knowing person or situations - on own assumptions? Good and big words, but they do miss their target. 8)[/quote] When you finally end up in court after your male dog mauls or kills someone, the jury will only have the facts stated, just as we have here. I am certain you don't like hearling an honest apprasal of the facts that you have presented. You have been give good advice by JackBull. I do hope you take his advice and get help for your dogs. Good luck with your dogs.

[quote="Platz"]Stacey - I didn't ask, "about "dealing" with a dog in public" as an open question for discussion. But, your ego once again over rode your reading comprehension. I asked a very specific question to the OP about her dog: [quote=Platz]Meriam - Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Not surprisingly, you try to hi-jack the thread and make it about yourself. Civily yours, Platz :wink:[/quote] Then conduct private communications privately if they aren't for group discussion. Sorry to steal your thunder, but the needs of the owner outweigh your soapbox chastizing others that they can't handle their dogs/shouldn't own these breeds. Since you are newly self appointed advisor to the LGD breeds, the technique is a good one to keep in mind.

Stacey - "Then conduct private communications privately if they aren't for group discussion." Where you stamping your foot when you wrote that? :lol: :lol: :lol: Accept the reality, not everyone can handle every breed of dog. When someone posts.: "Before I realised my dog jumped on him and I flew as a leaf after. The chap flew on his back with my dog laying on his chest with teeth on his throat. Without my husbands help I would not had a chance to get my dog off the bloke. " They have a very real problem, and when they sugar-coat it and make excuses for a dog that pinned a human and was at it's throat, better they get chatized here, than convicted in court.

[quote=Platz]Stacey - "Then conduct private communications privately if they aren't for group discussion." Where you stamping your foot when you wrote that? :lol: :lol: :lol: Accept the reality, not everyone can handle every breed of dog. When someone posts.: "Before I realised my dog jumped on him and I flew as a leaf after. The chap flew on his back with my dog laying on his chest with teeth on his throat. Without my husbands help I would not had a chance to get my dog off the bloke. " They have a very real problem, and when they sugar-coat it and make excuses for a dog that pinned a human and was at it's throat, better they get chatized here, than convicted in court.[/quote] Owner already owns the dog, owner doesn't sound inclined to kill the dog, double leashing and head halter helps control the problem, the tools necessary to change can't handle to can handle until there is a more permanent solution.

[quote="EsqCaucasians"][quote="Platz"]Stacey - I didn't ask, "about "dealing" with a dog in public" as an open question for discussion. But, your ego once again over rode your reading comprehension. I asked a very specific question to the OP about her dog: [quote=Platz]Meriam - Now going forward you know for a fact that you can not physically control that male dog when it goes into defence mode. So how are you going to deal with him in public now?[/quote] Not surprisingly, you try to hi-jack the thread and make it about yourself. Civily yours, Platz :wink:[/quote] Then conduct private communications privately if they aren't for group discussion. Sorry to steal your thunder, but the needs of the owner outweigh your soapbox chastizing others that they can't handle their dogs/shouldn't own these breeds. Since you are newly self appointed advisor to the LGD breeds, the technique is a good one to keep in mind.[/quote] All of my CO's weigh more than I do. I am 5 '.. This means that I can not count on being able to control these guys with my bulk or sheer strength. I start out with these guys as puppies and train, work with them on obedience, conformation, tricks, and play for the duration of each of their lives. They are always being trained in some way or form. I start with a Gentle Leader instead of a choke collar. This way they are use to the GL when they are older and thus do not object to it being on. The GL, is like the halter on a horse, where the head goes so does the body, thus total control! With a GL on, the CO, is not going to do anything you do not let them do, no matter what your size or theirs. I love my GL's that I have for all of my guys! Now when we go to classes or shows, be it obedience or conformation, I have the choke collars on. as these are controlled conditions and there is total control due to the training that they have received at home on a dailey basis. I can not stress how important it is to get these guys into formal classes and to work with them at home also. This is my recommendation to anyone with these guys. Kat

Stacey, are you being purposely obtuse??? You yourself reccomend training..."professional training" ALL we are trying to say is just that get some professional help...the OP is obviously in over her head here... Are we all reading and speaking English here, she has had one attack and two very close calls....STOP glossing over it...noone is saying she shouldn't own the dogs or that she should put them down. We are saying OK you can train your dogs, you have some expertise...GREAT, now get some help with them....before something really nasty happens....are we missing the point that there has been one mauling, already????? Are we missing that her own son almost fell victim to a second????? Are we missing that her neighbor was pinned and held down by the throat...and she wouldn't have been able to get the dog off if her husband wasn't home....They are rescue dog's...nobody is knocking your breed, stop taking it as bad press for your breed...have some objectivity, Miriam , you still haven't answered my question...what would be talking about if your bitch had gotten to your son???? Would we be discussing how you can get control of the situation yourself???? or would be talking about getting some help...why is it an insult to seek some professional help with your troubled dogs????? My God...you people are all nuts. I promise this is my last post on this subject...unless OP solicits my advice I will not offer it...which more and more seems like a good idea on this site...it's not a pissing contest, I gain nothing, I am not trying to be the smartes dog person out there...I don't need to compete with anyone for what I know about dogs. I am only trying to help the OP deal with her dogs as I read the situation from her posts. PERIOD END OF STORY...TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT...But for the love of God, Stop acting like it is some kind of an attack on you or your breed ....all of you.

[quote=JackBull]Stacey, are you being purposely obtuse??? You yourself reccomend training..."professional training" ALL we are trying to say is just that get some professional help...the OP is obviously in over her head here... Are we all reading and speaking English here, she has had one attack and two very close calls....STOP glossing over it...noone is saying she shouldn't own the dogs or that she should put them down. We are saying OK you can train your dogs, you have some expertise...GREAT, now get some help with them....before something really nasty happens....are we missing the point that there has been one mauling, already????? Are we missing that her own son almost fell victim to a second????? Are we missing that her neighbor was pinned and held down by the throat...and she wouldn't have been able to get the dog off if her husband wasn't home....They are rescue dog's...nobody is knocking your breed, stop taking it as bad press for your breed...have some objectivity, Miriam , you still haven't answered my question...what would be talking about if your bitch had gotten to your son???? Would we be discussing how you can get control of the situation yourself???? or would be talking about getting some help...why is it an insult to seek some professional help with your troubled dogs????? My God...you people are all nuts. I promise this is my last post on this subject...unless OP solicits my advice I will not offer it...which more and more seems like a good idea on this site...it's not a pissing contest, I gain nothing, I am not trying to be the smartes dog person out there...I don't need to compete with anyone for what I know about dogs. I am only trying to help the OP deal with her dogs as I read the situation from her posts. PERIOD END OF STORY...TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT...But for the love of God, Stop acting like it is some kind of an attack on you or your breed ....all of you.[/quote] Giving practical head halter advice isn't "glossing" over things, or something to yell at me about. Realistic not obtuse. The owner has pretty much already indicated nicely she isn't inclined to the training advice and doesnt seem to be answering the inquisition. But, maybe owner will read the part about head halters, purchase one for 20 bucks at the local pet store when she picks up dog food, and use it. Professional training isn't going to happen this minute or overnight anyway, a head halter solution can be instituted immediately. Safety consciousness, and longterm solutions do not preclude quick fix immediate practical solutions too. Any Ovcharka out of control effects all Ovcharka breed owners because it is such a small group. These breeds respond readily to pressure on top of the muzzle and when they feel control exerted by owner, and they change their attitude toward owner with view toward owner leadership that carries over to all situations.

[quote=desiree]I dont think that it doesnt matter how much you train your dog.The moment you are out of sight (example upstairs what ever) he will give a natural reaction and if that reaction is attack than there is nothing you can do about it than lock your dog when you are not there. At night when i am a sleep and my sonn comes home and he thinks there is something wrong he will react no matter how much you trained him but this doesnt only count for a co also for other breeds. Can we count on them that they always make the right decision if something is a tread yes or no.I cant even do that myself. You cant ever trust a dog no matter what breed.[/quote] Fuuny, I can leave the house, be gone for hous and knock on the door and my dog will not bark. I open the door and there she stands tail wagging. The same goes for my wife, my daughter and my mother in law. but if anyone she does not know attempts the same act she'll bark. My dog would never react adversly to when my daughter comes home. I guess I have a smart one :)

You are on your third CO Desiree with shockingly little success. It is time for you to stop asking questions and start figuring things out. IMHO

[quote=BabyBoySmith]You are on your third CO Desiree with shockingly little success. It is time for you to stop asking questions and start figuring things out. IMHO[/quote] Totally uncalled for and in very bad taste... :(

wow... i didnt know that a lady losing 2 prior dogs was a target for another person to attack her. This really shows the quality of people we are dealing with here guys. How high class and cosmo of you brad. But, at the end of the day, it will always be a good day, to NOT be you. Des,forget what this person has written here. He doesnt have the class to keep things like this in good taste. he doesnt need to knwo WHY the others didnt work, only that they didnt work out, and it AUTOMATICALLY is due to irresponsibilty or stupidity on your part. That fact remains, youhave found your co that DOES work out for you, and is a healthy dog, so be happy about that. Dont let people like brad and people of his stature get to you, or get you down. Mike

Come on now guys, you know that if you get a Halty and use a clicker and throw in a time-out in the corner every once in a while you can fix any problem dog in a week...

This thread is done. Thank Brad, everyone.