Opinion of Swinford on Bandogs/breeders

L

[quote=o_dosa_neo]many of the asian country's have tosa...sorry to burst someones bubble... thats a fact...as well as dosa....MONEY TALKS[/quote] Exactly...that was my point. I agree with the other statement made by crnosrce1 also...money talks. It is a fact that these dogs exist in other parts besides Japan. People can put their heads in the sand and wish to believe "history of the breed" or "control of the breed" but at some point they have to "look around" and when they do they will see that Tosa are in other countries...and have been for some time.

Tosa came to Korea because Korea was occupied by Japan for over thirty years. Yakuza are still quite strong in Korea. China was also occupied for quite some time. At the same time the only place in Moaist China where Japanese Organized crime had any foothold was Hong Kong (technically not inside China until 1997.) Regardless, all true Tosa at the time where registered in the Sudo registry. Do any of you really think that John Swinford was connected to Japanese Organized crime in America in the 1960's? A highly unlikely story.

O

brad....tosa have been in korea since the mid 1800's....Japanese occupation of korea didnt occur until 1910, the timeline is off also you forgot thailand....tons of tosa there... i will agree that dog fighting in these country's is influenced by organized crime..to think those arms dont encompass many of the asian countries in naive im hoping murray pierce chimes in on this thread...whos knowledge and connection to japan in all things TOSA...i respect...a could shed hands on light to this subject

The Tosa of the 1800's was/is the breed now known as the Shilkoku :D

O

granted...but the present day tosa had been developed buy the 1920's...in that period there were an estimated 5000 tosa breeders in japan...you dont think some could have been persuaded ($) to cut loose some stock... come-on

[quote=o_dosa_neo]granted...but the present day tosa had been developed buy the 1920's...in that period there were an estimated 5000 tosa breeders in japan...you dont think some could have been persuaded ($) to cut loose some stock... come-on[/quote] And then those decendents of those 1920's dogs ended up in the hands of DVM John Swinford in 1969? :lol: Sure, I'll buy it.

O

50 yrs isnt enough time for tosa to trickle out of the asian clutch...to the states?...you are naive try the U.S. occupation of japan after the war...you dont think enlisted dogmen took a fancy to the tosa, during that period....and off they went

[quote=o_dosa_neo]50 yrs isnt enough time for tosa to trickle out of the asian clutch...to the states?...you are naive try the U.S. occupation of japan after the war...you dont think enlisted dogmen took a fancy to the tosa, during that period....and off they went[/quote] How often do you go to Japan? What Kyokai are you a member of?

M

Hello, My name is Murray Pierce. I generally don’t post on any forum, but I saw this as an opportunity to add to this discussion. In the late 80’s, early 90’s I had the pleasure of corresponding through translator with Genchiki Sudo, perhaps the most well known Tosa fancier outside of Japan. Over the years we went through most of the pages of Zen'Nihon Tosainu Zenshu Taikan, a rare work on the Tosa. I credit him with patience and a willingness to educate me on his experience with the Tosa. (Someone posted a nice shot of Mr. Sudo with one of his dogs whose name escapes me now) I like to think of myself as someone who has a desire to uncover all the aspects of owning a particular breed. With that, history of your chosen breed adds to your knowledge base. I honestly don’t know if that makes me a “historian” however, I don’t like the pejorative tone the word “historian” has taken in these series of post, but, that may just be me. Below are a couple of bulleted points which may (or may not) add to some points in the discussion: •Dog against dog combat in Japan predates the development of the Tosa. Matching one dog against another is a documented practice in Japan with over a thousand year history (The Taiheki or Chronicle of Great Peace circa 1219-1333; The Kojiki; and the Nihon Shoki serving as examples of ancient text referencing canine combat). As to rules, there is little in print that references any degree of uniform practice which every village that participated in this activity followed. One document records a match which lasted 3 days with thousands of dogs released into an arena with the champion emerging days later. Modern day Tosa combat rules were developed primarily by the Yakuza in their early involvement with the dogs during the 1920’s. (Even today the Yakuza remain “keen” on “regulating” any questionable activity) •The incipient developmental period of the Tosa (roughly 1868-1912) bore witness to many changes in the morphology and temperament of the Tosa. It’s important to remember that the Tosa of early days is best seen as a “work in progress” and to a very large extent, equivalent to the modern day usage of the term “bandogge”. In regards to the earliest developmental information, research revealed initially (late 19th century), the English Pointer, English Setters, a dog called the Shishisaki or "Kochi Dog" which was yet another variant on the Akita dog, and the Akita dog as the most used indigenous Japanese dog later crossed with Western style bull breeds used to produce the Tosa. •Later, as the dog gained in popularity, and as they moved across the country, a number of the currently recognized breeds (including many “bulldog” or molosser types e.g., Bordeaux, Great Dane, Mastiff) added to the Tosa to improve the desired function of the breed. The early Tosa dog lost matches to more than just bulldog-types. •A point of clarification from one of the post in this series; In actuality, the name Tosa is a prefecture in Japan once known as “Kochi”. Shikoku is the Island of which Tosa prefecture is a district. The “Shikoku” dog is distinct from the Tosa dog. •As to the modern-day Tosa not being competitive with the modern-day APBT, the truth be told, there have to date been very few, if any, keep-developed, fully conditioned, campaigned and championed Japanese bred and born Tosas have ever stepped on US soil. There however have been competitively campaigned APBT shipped to Japan. I will not comment on the outcome on this forum. Today, many of the dogs designated as “Tosas” in the states are probably better identified as “Japanese Mastiffs”, a distinction I make between the dogs residing and working in Japan and those existing outside their country of origin. So when folks talk about “gameness” relative to the Tosa, very few if any, are speaking from first hand knowledge of the capabilities of these dogs as a significantly limited number of the representatives of the breed outside Japan are only a shadow of their homeland bred and campaigned relatives. •At the end of WWII (1945), Helen Keller popularizing the indigenous Akita notwithstanding, many American servicemen brought back with them “Akita” type dogs from Japan. It’s my sense that many of these dogs were primarily, a dog designated as the “Shin Akita”. The Shin Akita was predominately a mixture of the indigenous Akita dog and the newly developing Tosa. Understand that during this period, the Japanese dog enthusiast were not averse to trying any “formula” to improve upon their dogs combat ability. This admixture accounts in part for the variant in size between the current Japanese style Akita and its American cousin. Perhaps contributing to this mass exodus was the fact that many nationalistically inclined Japanese saw the addition of "Tosa" blood to the Akita as a mark of unpatriotic concern (remember, this is Ante Bellum Japan we’re speaking of) as the indigenous Akita was such a revered and celebrated breed attaining the status of the “national breed of Japan”. With this in mind, they were more than willing to part with their bastard cousins in the form of the Shin Akita. •As to the Tosa being exported during this time, (circa 1945) in my opinion it is highly unlikely that any significant number of these dogs found their way to US shores until later. It is equally important to note that after the war, there were very few Tosas in existence (some sources state no more than a handful). Much of the existing breeding stock had been sent to the Northern Regions, particularly, the Hokkaido area, where there was less war-related activity. •I too have second and in one instance, third hand knowledge of folks that participated in the Swinford project. No one has ever stated to me that Swinford used the Tosa (in point of fact, I never asked) in his project. Given my personal conversations with these individuals I really can’t say with certainty if he did or did not. In the end, beyond historical import, the point is trivial in that there was to my knowledge, no consistent usage, if any, of Tosa blood in the project. Not unlike the Japanese at the time of the creation of the Tosa, those involved with the Swinford project, although they had a different goal, were not adverse in experimenting with various breeds to achieve their desired ends. •As to the Chinese Tosa, I have heard reference to them and have seen pictures of them. I do not know of their date of entry into China. Like Korea, the Japanese occupied sections of China. As they brought Tosa dogs to Korea, they may have brought them to China also. •Finally, as to the issue of the Tosa as a personal protection dog; I am not aware of anyone in Japan involved in any of the Associations who promotes the Tosa as a personal protection dog. Regards, Murray Pierce

L

Early in this topic, I stated there are some who are "breed historians" and then there are also some that work dogs. In almost ALL CASES...the two groups are mutually exclusive. Of course there are some that REALLY work dogs that over a lifetime become "historians" of breeds, but in most cases...those that dedicate their lives to studying book knowledge about dogs seldom have much true dog experience and common sense around dogs. What we are witnessing here is obviously a case of someone with little common sense of how dog people actually work. To think one group is going to control all Tosa in Japan, China, Korea, and the Phillipines is ridiculous...actually more along the lines of absurd. Next, Swinford was not the only person involved in the original Swinford program. He had several partners in the project. These people bred Swinford bandogs for over a decade after Swinford died (again, he died in October of 1971). Next, I don't for one minute think that Swnford had "connections" with organized crime in Japan. I don't think he had any interest in such...but of course this is pure speculation on my part. What I know though is Tosa had been used in the Swinford project LONG BEFORE I used it in our program. I did have the idea to cross the APBT and Tosa...and to breed offspring resulting from such back with my Swinford dogs, but I was not the first to think of such. It had been done before. What does this mean about "organized crime in Japan?" Nothing. The Japanese didn't invent matching up dogs. In fact, there is no doubt (amoung those with any sense) that the Japanese added the APBT into their program to improve their dogs. If they had money (which of course they did), then they wouldn't just buy any crap APBT that someone wanted to get rid of. They would have went to quality stock. To get good dogs, they would have to come up with the money and develop the right connections in the USA. Of course Swinford himself would have NEVER been such a connection as he didn't even keep APBT's on any regular basis. But my point was the Tosa has been outside of Japan. Again, how else would China, Korea, or the Phillipines have the Tosa? Obvoiusly, just as today...if someone has the money they can get what the want. The entire idea of this though is rather humorous...because the truth of it is...although the tosa was used and I have used it...and it can be a successful breeding...there are other quality breedings as well...AND, the primary component was APBT x EM...so, I think the topic has gotten "stuck in the mudd" because some get hung up on illusions.

[quote="Murray Pierce"]Hello, My name is Murray Pierce. I generally don’t post on any forum, but I saw this as an opportunity to add to this discussion. In the late 80’s, early 90’s I had the pleasure of corresponding through translator with Genchiki Sudo, perhaps the most well known Tosa fancier outside of Japan. Over the years we went through most of the pages of Zen'Nihon Tosainu Zenshu Taikan, a rare work on the Tosa. I credit him with patience and a willingness to educate me on his experience with the Tosa. (Someone posted a nice shot of Mr. Sudo with one of his dogs whose name escapes me now) I like to think of myself as someone who has a desire to uncover all the aspects of owning a particular breed. With that, history of your chosen breed adds to your knowledge base. I honestly don’t know if that makes me a “historian” however, I don’t like the pejorative tone the word “historian” has taken in these series of post, but, that may just be me. Below are a couple of bulleted points which may (or may not) add to some points in the discussion: •Dog against dog combat in Japan predates the development of the Tosa. Matching one dog against another is a documented practice in Japan with over a thousand year history (The Taiheki or Chronicle of Great Peace circa 1219-1333; The Kojiki; and the Nihon Shoki serving as examples of ancient text referencing canine combat). As to rules, there is little in print that references any degree of uniform practice which every village that participated in this activity followed. One document records a match which lasted 3 days with thousands of dogs released into an arena with the champion emerging days later. Modern day Tosa combat rules were developed primarily by the Yakuza in their early involvement with the dogs during the 1920’s. (Even today the Yakuza remain “keen” on “regulating” any questionable activity) •The incipient developmental period of the Tosa (roughly 1868-1912) bore witness to many changes in the morphology and temperament of the Tosa. It’s important to remember that the Tosa of early days is best seen as a “work in progress” and to a very large extent, equivalent to the modern day usage of the term “bandogge”. In regards to the earliest developmental information, research revealed initially (late 19th century), the English Pointer, English Setters, a dog called the Shishisaki or "Kochi Dog" which was yet another variant on the Akita dog, and the Akita dog as the most used indigenous Japanese dog later crossed with Western style bull breeds used to produce the Tosa. •Later, as the dog gained in popularity, and as they moved across the country, a number of the currently recognized breeds (including many “bulldog” or molosser types e.g., Bordeaux, Great Dane, Mastiff) added to the Tosa to improve the desired function of the breed. The early Tosa dog lost matches to more than just bulldog-types. •A point of clarification from one of the post in this series; In actuality, the name Tosa is a prefecture in Japan once known as “Kochi”. Shikoku is the Island of which Tosa prefecture is a district. The “Shikoku” dog is distinct from the Tosa dog. •As to the modern-day Tosa not being competitive with the modern-day APBT, the truth be told, there have to date been very few, if any, keep-developed, fully conditioned, campaigned and championed Japanese bred and born Tosas have ever stepped on US soil. There however have been competitively campaigned APBT shipped to Japan. I will not comment on the outcome on this forum. Today, many of the dogs designated as “Tosas” in the states are probably better identified as “Japanese Mastiffs”, a distinction I make between the dogs residing and working in Japan and those existing outside their country of origin. So when folks talk about “gameness” relative to the Tosa, very few if any, are speaking from first hand knowledge of the capabilities of these dogs as a significantly limited number of the representatives of the breed outside Japan are only a shadow of their homeland bred and campaigned relatives. •At the end of WWII (1945), Helen Keller popularizing the indigenous Akita notwithstanding, many American servicemen brought back with them “Akita” type dogs from Japan. It’s my sense that many of these dogs were primarily, a dog designated as the “Shin Akita”. The Shin Akita was predominately a mixture of the indigenous Akita dog and the newly developing Tosa. Understand that during this period, the Japanese dog enthusiast were not averse to trying any “formula” to improve upon their dogs combat ability. This admixture accounts in part for the variant in size between the current Japanese style Akita and its American cousin. Perhaps contributing to this mass exodus was the fact that many nationalistically inclined Japanese saw the addition of "Tosa" blood to the Akita as a mark of unpatriotic concern (remember, this is Ante Bellum Japan we’re speaking of) as the indigenous Akita was such a revered and celebrated breed attaining the status of the “national breed of Japan”. With this in mind, they were more than willing to part with their bastard cousins in the form of the Shin Akita. •As to the Tosa being exported during this time, (circa 1945) in my opinion it is highly unlikely that any significant number of these dogs found their way to US shores until later. It is equally important to note that after the war, there were very few Tosas in existence (some sources state no more than a handful). Much of the existing breeding stock had been sent to the Northern Regions, particularly, the Hokkaido area, where there was less war-related activity. •I too have second and in one instance, third hand knowledge of folks that participated in the Swinford project. No one has ever stated to me that Swinford used the Tosa (in point of fact, I never asked) in his project. Given my personal conversations with these individuals I really can’t say with certainty if he did or did not. In the end, beyond historical import, the point is trivial in that there was to my knowledge, no consistent usage, if any, of Tosa blood in the project. Not unlike the Japanese at the time of the creation of the Tosa, those involved with the Swinford project, although they had a different goal, were not adverse in experimenting with various breeds to achieve their desired ends. •As to the Chinese Tosa, I have heard reference to them and have seen pictures of them. I do not know of their date of entry into China. Like Korea, the Japanese occupied sections of China. As they brought Tosa dogs to Korea, they may have brought them to China also. •Finally, as to the issue of the Tosa as a personal protection dog; I am not aware of anyone in Japan involved in any of the Associations who promotes the Tosa as a personal protection dog. Regards, Murray Pierce[/quote] Thank you Mr.Pierce. You pretty much summed up the same things I have stated. The only difference being that the Shikoku Inu we knew today where called Tosa-Ken by some regionals. There was a Tosa-Ken Hyzokai that had a clear shillouette of a Shikoku in it's logo. If I could find that picture I will post it. Again, thank you for your clear and concise post. It is much appreciated.

A

I believe there is a difference in cultures between the asians and westerners. With westerners money can buy most anything. In asian cultures honor and integrity are important, more important than money. It may be difficult for westerners to understand but those that know asian culture know the ethics that they live by. The asians have guarded their fighting arts and dogs for thousands of years. They wouldn't give others (westereners) their such cherished warriors (Tosa) or esoteric fighting techniques (martial arts) to outsiders. They would however, pass these traditions and secrets down from generation to generation within their families and share with few selected other asians. They did however as well, use pit bulls from America to help add gameness to their stock Tosa. I agree with most of Murray's post and also that in the Swinford program the Tosa was most likely not used.

Troy, I deleted you last post. Do not invoke someone's parentage or dating practices in these discussions. Stick to the subject. Everyone stay on topic and refrain from personal insults. I am getting older and my patience is not what it used to be so please to not test me. stay on topic and behave.

L

Murray, thanks for the post. You are probably one of the few that here that is BOTH a historian and a person with working dog experience...but as I mentioned earlier I personally have found such types rare...and GENERALLY only among people that have done dogs for a LONG TIME. The mentioning of a Tosa being used in the Swinford project prior to me bringing it in has indeed become WAY overplayed and as Murray stated it was not any SIGNIFICANT portion of long term breedings. I only mentioned the breed because it HAS been used before and this includes work prior to my use of the Tosa. I believe I gave Murray enough information in a private message that he could confirm what I stated to be true if he wishes to confirm it (which is only that the tosa has been used in the Swinford program by some of the people originally involved in the program long before my involvement)...as I know he was familiar with some of the people originally involved. AlphaBlueBlood..., I have a question for you... [blockquote]It may be difficult for westerners to understand but those that know asian culture know the ethics that they live by[/blockquote] Do you think Japanese that are involved in organized crime do so because of the "ethics" of it...or because of the financial gain? Of course, I think we can all see that such a suggestion contains a great deal of irony...for the answer to that is obvious. People get involved in crime because of curruption...for financial gain and for power. The entire idea of "organized crime" goes against ethics...and we all know that crime does indeed exist in Japan....so to suggest that such dogs could not be obtained is simply not a valid argument. Also, I wish to clarify something else. Murray did not say the tosa was not used...but that he believed it was not CONSISTENTLY USED...and on that note he would be correct. Again, the primary components of the Swinford program was APBT x EM.

A

Lee, It looks to me you have a nice program. I have complimented on it before. You have a nice acreage for the dogs to run, train and socialize. Overall, your program is a productive positive program for ban dogs. Swinford had the original idea and he most likely didn't use Tosa as this was verified by Murray and he would know more than any of us here. I think if Suleyman could be reproduced there would be many buyers but that would probably not come to fruition. I would like to know and maybe Murray knows Suleyman's percentages and can add his knowledge on this legend of a dog. Nevertheless, it looks to me to be one of the best guards of all time. http://www.molossermania.com/brd/b/b001/history.html With all that being said Swinford unfortunately did not get to finish his program and to me looked as if he didn't really get much off the ground but could have done exceptionally well with where he was headed. Whether or not Swinford used Tosa or not should not be that great deal of an issue. If he didn't and most believe he didn't maybe you should concede to the probability that he most likely didn't. If I were you I personally wouldn't use the Swinford name. You are headed in the right direction have some nice pits and have produced some fine specimens of Ban Dogs. You're creating your own brand and don't even know it. Name your dogs Lee Robinson Ban Dog. Or Robinson Ban Dog. Continue creating great dogs and buyers will come find you as they have in the past. Stay away from the squabbling over inane issues and posters and it will validate your program. With all that being said continue on with your program. Maybe take some positive crititism and accolades as well. :)

L

[quote=AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog]Lee, It looks to me you have a nice program. I have complimented on it before. You have a nice acreage for the dogs to run, train and socialize. Overall, your program is a productive positive program for ban dogs. [/quote] Thanks for the kind words. [blockquote]Swinford had the original idea and he most likely didn't use Tosa as this was verified by Murray and he would know more than any of us here.[/blockquote] Murray posted his message as his knowledge on the subject. I have since given him a message that he can confirm if he wishes to do so. [blockquote]Whether or not Swinford used Tosa or not should not be that great deal of an issue. If he didn't and most believe he didn't maybe you should concede to the probability that he most likely didn't. [/blockquote] I can't "concede" to something I know is false. To ask me to do so is wrong as well. I have had direct conversation with more than one person directly involved with Swinford and his dogs. I also have heard directly from one person that they did cross some Tosa into their dogs. I also have pictures of one tosa being handled by one of the people originally involved with the Swinford dogs. So, why would I concede to an alternative view just because someone that wasn't there doesn't like the idea? I can't do that. [blockquote]If I were you I personally wouldn't use the Swinford name. You are headed in the right direction have some nice pits and have produced some fine specimens of Ban Dogs. You're creating your own brand and don't even know it. Name your dogs Lee Robinson Ban Dog. Or Robinson Ban Dog. Continue creating great dogs and buyers will come find you as they have in the past.[/blockquote] I am not really concerned about recognition for my work. I was raised by professors...and also attended universities to develop my knowledge. One of the FIRST lessons I learned was to not plagerize...and to give credit for the work done by those that came before us. I believe our program is now approaching a level of success that is actually passing the siccesses of the Swinford project...as I have heard this from those involved with the original program...so although I understand what you are saying...I still have to give credit to those that came before us. We learned from their work. One of the problems I see today is too many people want to take all the credit. I am interested in the dogs. The credit means little to me. I just like working the dogs. It is my opinion and belief that by using the name of a person who has passed away...and giving him credit for his influence...no one today should get too big a head so to speak. We have considered other names...but in the end I am not sure that is the proper thing to do. By adding to, building from, and learning from the work of others...our work becomes easier and better. For this, I am thankful...as it is a lot of work. [blockquote]Stay away from the squabbling over inane issues and posters and it will validate your program.[/blockquote] Although I again understand your message and appreciate the thought, this isn't about me or validating my program, but just a matter of reporting an accurate history of what happened before my program came along. I believe that we are NOT gods...and for this reason we don't have the luxury of changing history...and I think we should report the truth instead of just stating what we WISHED was the truth. I hope people can understand this. It would be foolish for me to argue the point if this wasn't true...and perhaps it is even foolish for me to argue it even though I know it is true...because nothing is to come of it...EXCEPT knowing the truth is out there. BTW, I noticed you didn't comment on the "ethics" vs. "financial" motive for "organized crime." Certainly you see that the motives of such types are entirely financial. So...to think the Tosa couldn't leave Japan is simply debatable. We certainly know that Tosa did leave...as they are found in many countries and have been for some time. We also know Tosa puppies off of adults that had already been matched and bred have been advertised in the Sporting Dog Journal as well around 1982-1983. The point being..."pure XYZ type" Tosas is irrelivant. Tosa...in some way shape of form have existed in other countries besides Japan for some time.

Lee, if you have the proof of Tosa's being used in the Swinford program please post it. I think this is at least the fourth time I have asked.

L

I have already had photos about Swinford's program stolen from my site (photos of Octavia with her pups. I am not going to publically release photos about the original Swinford program again until I copywrite protect my site. The tosa information I have only confirms the tosa's use on a LIMITED BASIS...as it was not a primary component as I stated earlier. This isn't a major claim and is of little importance. On a more interesting note, I have over a dozen other photos that have never been shared...including additional photos of Bantu and several other Swinford dogs in Swinford's own back yard. These will not be released until I copywrite protect my site and mark the images some how.

LMAO...it is SOOOOOOO difficult to add a watermark on a picture.. LOL

[quote=LeeRobinson]I have already had photos about Swinford's program stolen from my site (photos of Octavia with her pups. I am not going to publically release photos about the original Swinford program again until I copywrite protect my site. The tosa information I have only confirms the tosa's use on a LIMITED BASIS...as it was not a primary component as I stated earlier. This isn't a major claim and is of little importance. On a more interesting note, I have over a dozen other photos that have never been shared...including additional photos of Bantu and several other Swinford dogs in Swinford's own back yard. These will not be released until I copywrite protect my site and mark the images some how.[/quote] www.legalzoom.com

O

Thanks Murray... fascinating stuff john

[quote="pillowpants"]This is Kagemaru, my first Tosa circa 1988.

[/quote] wow!!! Why don't more look like this? I bet you got a lot of looks walking down the street with this one. What did people most commonly mistake it for?

Thank you Redeagle. For me, Kage was a once in a lifetime dog. Never went to the vet for anything and he passed in his sleep at 14 1/2. He was rock solid muscle at 118lbs. Loyal, trustworthy. The best friend ever. I got a lot of "he's a mastiff" when we walked. I even got bloodhound a couple of times. :lol:

Hey pillowpants..Don't post pictures.."They" will steal them. LOL Copyright them..ask Harold

So can someone please explain the genesis of the APBTxNeo craze? It seems like a good idea, and to have had some success. If it wasn't Swinford that initiated it, then who? And who were some other "bandog" breeders? [quote=pillowpants]Thank you Redeagle. For me, Kage was a once in a lifetime dog. Never went to the vet for anything and he passed in his sleep at 14 1/2. He was rock solid muscle at 118lbs. Loyal, trustworthy. The best friend ever. I got a lot of "he's a mastiff" when we walked. I even got bloodhound a couple of times. :lol:[/quote] :D :D

I've never heard of a bandog until stepping foot on this website. From my own learning, any dog that was chained during the day was a bandog. I suppose the Neo (as in new... not mastiff lol) bandog breeders were looking to rectify the weak temperments of some of the mastiffs and to create a superior dog by crossing them with APBT.

Readeagle : http://bandogmastiffs.blogspot.com/ contains more truth than some can handle

[quote=GRBandog]Readeagle : http://bandogmastiffs.blogspot.com/ contains more truth than some can handle[/quote] I certainly appreciate the link, GRBandog, but I've been there before. Admittedly, I should probably give it a more thorough look. I'm just wondering where all those dogs in Semenic's book come from. Were they From Leiberman lines? Also, who's the Grimm family?

L

When it came to the Swinford dogs...it was in fact Lieberman that brought the Neapolitan into play. After time passed, the people involved in the Swinford program came to learn that although good dogs can be obtained from Neapolitan x APBT breedings, they found better success with the English Mastiff crosses.

[blockquote] After time passed, the people involved in the Swinford program came to learn that although good dogs can be obtained from Neapolitan x APBT breedings, they found better success with the English Mastiff crosses.[/blockquote] Who are those people? What dogs have they produced?

L

:lol: Read the book. :lol:

[quote=LeeRobinson]When it came to the Swinford dogs...it was in fact Lieberman that brought the Neapolitan into play. After time passed, the people involved in the Swinford program came to learn that although good dogs can be obtained from Neapolitan x APBT breedings, they found better success with the English Mastiff crosses.[/quote] I think you make this stuff up as you go along.

L

Think what you want...it doesn't change the truth. If you doubt that Martin brought the Neapolitan into the program and if you doubt that they felt as if they felt their best dogs were obtained from EM...don't ask me, just ask Mr. Lieberman. Someone brought his name into the discussion earlier and those that are familiar with the Swinford program will know Lieberman was one of Swinford's partners. Mr. Lieberman is still around. Go ask him if you want. It makes NO DIFFERENCE to me what you "think." I put the info out for those that want to know the truth about it. http://www.swinfordbandog.com

[quote=LeeRobinson]Think what you want...it doesn't change the truth. If you doubt that Martin brought the Neapolitan into the program and if you doubt that they felt as if they felt their best dogs were obtained from EM...don't ask me, just ask Mr. Lieberman. Someone brought his name into the discussion earlier and those that are familiar with the Swinford program will know Lieberman was one of Swinford's partners. Mr. Lieberman is still around. Go ask him if you want. It makes NO DIFFERENCE to me what you "think." I put the info out for those that want to know the truth about it. http://www.swinfordbandog.com[/quote] How about the "truth" rwgarding the use of Tosa in the Swinford program? Lieberman made zero mention of it. We still have zero documentation regarding it.

L

Obviously you have never spoken to him on the subject. If you had, you wouldn't say that.

[quote=LeeRobinson]Obviously you have never spoken to him on the subject. If you had, you wouldn't say that.[/quote] Stll no proof? Your spin is wearing thin.

Same ol' Harold Lee Robinson...the overnight breeder is now an author as well ! Let's see : Master degree in Animal sciences = breed anything that has heat in my yard Kicked off every dog training club = becomes self-proclaimed trainer Scavenging on a dead man's name = become an author You are the cull of the bandog community ,and you prove it every time you post. :lol: PS.Tell us why after all those years that you were sucking on Martin's(Lieberman) tit and promoting his petfood ,you have no link at your page now? Let me guess...Martin could not handle "your truth"

L

GRBandog, LOL. I am am "overnight breeder?" ROTFLO! You make 3 claims in your nonsense post. Let me address all three, for unlike you I don't have to hide or lie about anything. Let's see your degrees in Animal Sciences, genetics, and animal reproductive physiology. Let's see your certifications of artificial insemination by any professional breeding organization. Here is just a LITTLE information about our "overnight" breeding program. 1. My degrees, since you bring them up. http://www.chimerakennels.com/aboutchimerakennels.htm http://www.chimerakennels.com/AI%20breeders%20certification http://www.chimerakennels.com/bachelors http://www.chimerakennels.com/masters "Overnight breeder?" LOL. The U of I is one of the top universities in the country. Why is my name on those diplomas? It is a result of a lifetime of dedication to my program. [size=18]What professional knowledge do you have?[/size] The truth of it is, your a fumbling idiot and internet expert...nothing more. 2. There is only ONE training club that I have ever had issues with...and that was because they didn't want people taking pictures or videos of the dogs being work. Nothing more, nothing less. I thought that was a foolish policy. The exuse they had was it was not good "PR" with society to have k9 protection work on websites...although they of course had pictures and videos of the club owner's program. Perhaps the hypocracy was a "pit bull" type of thing. We went our own ways not because of training issues but because of hypocritical policies. Nothing more, so you obviously once again don't know what you are talking about. That is the only club we have ever had any disagreement with. We have worked with some of the best trainers in the country and have gotten along perfectly with all others that we have worked with. BTW, you should know of Butch Cappel, for he has worked more bandogs and been to more bandog programs than anyone alive. Why not ask him what he thinks about our dogs or program? 3. When it comes to the Swinford program, it would be EASIER for me to not give Swinford credit but that isn't the right thing to do. I give him credit because we are supposed to acknowledge the work done by those that came before us. I don't expect a parasite such as yourself to understand. HOWEVER, it is only my responsibility to prove my claims about [u]my dogs[/u]. Yes, I am working on a book, but I only mention it to get under your skin, which apparently it does. Whatever we claim in that book about the original Swinford program will be clearly proven when the book goes to print. You are obviously a jealous and insecure person...and I don't think much of you as you have been caught lying more often than a rug. Marty knows a lot about dogs from a lifetime of experience. If you actually read the Origins of the Swinford page http://www.chimerakennels.com/originoftheswinford.htm , because of his involvement with Swinford, you would see there is in fact a link to Martin's Website in that article. We have also had close collaborations not just with him, but with others as well that were DIRECTLY involved with the Swinford project...but I am not going to tell you who because we were fortunate enough to get dozens of photos never released to the public about the program...and we plan on keeping things private until we are ready to release those photos on our terms. Since you like bringing other people into our conversation...let me ask you a question. Can say the same about you and Lucero? You don't know your own dogs’ pedigrees and it is my understanding that he says he doesn't even know you except that you bought dogs from him. Nice relationship. How many times now has he told you to control your mouth? Why does Lucero not endorse your cross breeding program. As if you are some authority on anything...LOL. You are nothing but the epitome of what not to be...and simply speaking you are insecure. Your dogs are from unknown breedings, unknown pedigrees, and unregistered stock. [u]Your personal dogs[/u] are overweight, their tongues hang to the ground in exhaustion after just walking around...and most certainly are not a long lasting working breed...and your embarrassment shows through. You don't know the first thing about working a dog. I have seen dogs that were fit and looked good come into your program and in very short order they were overweight, cripple looking, tongue to the ground poor specimens. And, I can confirm this if need be. Do I need to prove this for you too? Do I need to do this? Please...by all means ask me to and give me permission to post those photos. Obvoiusly, you don't know how to work a dog. You try to peddle pups on several boards and place adds on various Websites...and then deny it. LOL. You have been caught lying about the breeds used in your dogs, you have been caught lying about the percentages in your dogs, you have been caugt lying about the ages of your dogs, you can't do math dispite others confirming your math is incorrect, you have been caught lying about other breeders, and you lied about how many generations you are in your program. Half your dogs look cripple and those overweight scatterbred mutts would be culled by any respectable breeder. You are everything a breeder should not be. I believe it is because you are despirate and lost. On that note, I wish you better success in the future because right now you are nothing but a parasite to the working canine community.

LOL...Lee and working dogs!! ROTFLMAO If you consider "Working" = "Breeding" them..then yes..i agree. btw..Joe never told me to control anything..your informant is a twat like you! Please tell us how you begged Joe for a dog and he refused..LMAO he can spot a cull from miles away. Good bye clown PS.Repdroductive physiology dictates breeding bitch.es in consecutive heats!! You can shove your degree...it is a disgrace that you own one!!LOL

L

That is the response I would expect from you. I never spoke to Joe and never asked him for a dog...as personally I don't care for the heavy "Neapolitan type" Bandog. I do however know of several people that have dogs from him and every one of them had to be culled except yours...and that's a fact. Some had temperament issues, some cripple, and one even bit his owner in the head when the man was getting out of bed and was bending over to get his slippers. That isn't really what I look for in a family companion guardian or a K9 athlete. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to attack the guy...for the guy has been very successful with his dogs in holiwood...and I give him props for that....but I have never asked for a dog from him. Personally I like loyal canine athletes. BTW, I again let me say I have heard that this guy you worship...the one who's name you try to ride off of says he doesn't even know you except that you got a couple of dogs from him. LOL. Is this true? Why is it said that Lucero doesn't even know you and never met you? 1. WHY IS IT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE PEDIGREES ON YOUR FOUNDATION DOGS? Is there any reputable trainer that likes you or your dogs? 2. Do you mind if I post a few photos of the condition of your dogs after they came into your possession? I have some halarius (actually very sad) photos of your dogs. Of course you don't want the diplomas. That takes too much work for an overnight failure such as yourself. (Notice, I can't call you an overnight breeder because your not a ligitimate breeder...not even an overnight one.) The truth of it is you are so far behind me that I can't even see you in my rear view mirror and for that reason I shouldn't even waste my time entertaining your nonsense. I would say get a life, but the truth is you need to get a lot more than that...including a life, an education, some math skills, and some good dogs.

every time you open your mouth a new lie comes out!! LOL Want to start a thread about my dogs? Hmm.. does this sound familliar? [blockquote]In closing, let me again say...I am not saying anything bad about your dogs or your program. My question is only about how they are bred. Nothing more.[/blockquote] Go ahead..I'll start one for you PS.Since you are so jealous of my relationship with Joe..let me tell you this..I am the only guy that Joe has accepted a dog from. Ohh...Your informant never told you this, huh?

Gentlemen, At the point where the topic becomes useless and of no educational value to the reader is when I will either lock or delete it. We are nearing that point now. So, stop the insults, name calling and personal finger pointing. Know that the curious reader who may be interested in getting one of your dogs are watching and reading - and thinking. What you write here gives and impression of you so type carefully.... Break - It is time to stop the insults or go do it on another site. Respect our members and keep the personal information out of the public forum. Your program is simply, your program. It is not wrong or right - it is yours. When the conversation starts to detract from the peace and relative tranquility of the site then it becomes my problem - and I will deal with it harshly if my nice appeal for restoration of normalcy is ignored. If your next post is of no educational value about the Bandogs then think twice before wasting your time on the keyboard because it certainly will be expunged from the site.

L

Correction. Joe took a dog for free that was produced from a breeding of his dogs...dogs that you got from him and planned on breeding. Hardly what you imply. Gary, I understand, but this irritant loves trashing anything having to do with Swinford or myself, which is why I have caught him in so many lies. If he would move on, I would gladly let the poor soul drift off into never never land.

many people have bred Joe's dogs but he did not accept anything back ,unless it was from 100% his dogs or from a breeding he felt it was a good outcross(which is my case). Anyway,I think you have been cought again clueless .. gsicard, this is my final post on the thread.

Amen! :arrow:

W

Do you think the Bandog is really necessary considering that there is the Neo, Corso, presa, rotts and bull's...Why do we need Bandogs?

[quote=webwench]Do you think the Bandog is really necessary considering that there is the Neo, Corso, presa, rotts and bull's...Why do we need Bandogs?[/quote] Actually, this is an interesting point! webwench, I hate to dump your post on its head, but most of the dogs you listed ARE Bandogs. Right, it depends on what your definition of a Bandog is, but all of those breeds, save the Rottweiler, are heavily out-crossed and hardly consistent in type, or even function. If anything, there are Bandog breeders who are doing as well or better at consistently producing healthy & effective working dogs. I don't care what Lee and GRBandog's opinions are of each other, but I'm willing to believe that each is working to create a strain of effective protection dogs. IMO, that's what matters most. Seriously, what's the point of a breed? I'm not saying we don't need breeds, but is there really a difference betw. the Irish Setter and Gordon Setter? How about the English Mastiff and St. Bernard? I'll never knowingly criticize any man's hardwork. I just think that breeding for effective, healthy and stable dogs is the most important thing. Form will follow from there. Some thoughts: The original BullMastiff was a type, not a breed. Cronscre (Mike) spoke of a dog so badass it had to be put down. The dog was simply an English Bulldog-Boxer cross (F1).

[quote=LeeRobinson"][quote="Denno]Bantu’s legend still lives on 40 years later. What is it that makes a “Swinford Bandog”? Is it not fair to say that anyone who crosses a game tested APBT with an OEM has a Swinford dog? The Rotti match proves very little in my opinion. It is this well publicized account which seems to have put Bantu on a pedestal thereby making him something of a benchmark as to what a Bandog should be in the minds of most people. I’m not intending to Put Dr. Swinford or Bantu down, but merely trying to point out that there’s nothing particularly special about the Swinford program as opposed to what others have done before and since. As for the Tosa being incorporated in the Swinford program, I have no idea, even if it was, I can only say “big deal”.[/quote] I am sure it had nothing to do with the overall success of the program...as most of the first generation dogs were APBT x EM. To a lesser degree there were also some APBT x Neos...and other mastiffs were used in a much lesser degree...but most of the original Swinford dogs were either APBT x EM or products of multiple generation breedings. All those involved with the original program eventually faded away and by the mid 80's even the multiple generation dogs that were produced by breeding Swinfords original work back together began disappearing until no known program was sustained.[/quote] Lee, If all the dogs from the Swinford bloodlines are gone than there IS no more Swinfords IMO,just because you breed two like dogs does not make them that if his dogs and all the dogs in the program from his partners are gone.then that bloodline of dogs is gone,JMO you are breeding your own bandogs.and its like this from my world on bloodlines if i knew that the direction of my breeding program and there were dogs back in the early 90's i would have got one and had him on a chain for 10 year waiting to stud out when i got my program together to preserve that swinford blood. Gentlemen, .also whats with all the secret partner,pics and dogs in the breeding big deal just put the info out there so everyone can learn from it why does it have to be my daddy is bigger than your daddy and i got and you don't,also its hard for me to subsribe to the theory that one cross is better than the other. i'm absolutely positive that there are culls in every breed,cross,and litter.and if your not culling and holding your dogs to a higher standard and letting everything make it you have kennel blindness or just out for a buck.and the.......( program)....... is a False.IE i had a litter of 15 pups from my performance bred AB's and there 7 on this earth from them that i felt had the traits and attributes that i was willing to let leave my yard and be placed in the hands of dogmen and hunters that respected my program. GR abd LEE, in my world when the BS gets this heated we just let our dogs do the talking for us people all the time talk about my dogs and how good there dogs are i just invite them down and the rest is the rest.Now please understand i have been a fan of the bandog and bully breeds for a while now and owned a couple.I have had some conversations and made a few road trips to look at good dogs and the speak with dogmen.and have some visiting me as a matter of fact all the way from Cali right now just to look and see what my parnter and i are doing with the dogs. In addition i have spoke to Lucero back in the early to middle 90's.we talked for hours his breeding program and standards for producing good dogs was excellent. also at the same time there was Wilson in canada who had some pretty hard dogs from spain and has a good program.if you can get these harder dogs from these two you have something IMO. one of my favorite dog's Mangus owned by Dan Wilson

and

this is not a post to stir things up just felt the need to post Realdogs

A

Realdogs, Nice head and firm body of that dog. Do you know his percentages and what he is used for?

Isn't Magnus the presa you and I talked about a few months back, Scott?