American Bulldogs make succesfull livestock guardian dogs?

no, they r livestock workers, not livestock guarders, they dont have the instincts to bond to the flock as say an cao or sarplaninac

suck on satan's scaly cockschnitzel. this site is tarded.

[quote=Shred]sure they can be livestock guards, you just gotta raise them with livestock from early puppyhood and encourage their natural bond and protection drive with also some training.. after all our great bulldogs have been used for many of jobs, mainly on the farms, be it guarding cattle or taking care of coyotes and everything else on the ranch. not sure about some of the so-called ambulls today tho, but if you get a nice oldschool one, it can be done..[/quote] I beg to differ. If a pup lacks generations of working lines,it will be very difficult to find the right balance that is necessary in order to be a trustworthy livestock guardian dog. Even pups out of working parents doesn't necessarily have what it takes to be a reliable LGD. Pups must be imprinted (scent on mother) to livestock as of birth,as of 5 weeks they ought to follow their mother to sheep/goat and stick nearby in order to socialize instead of following human handlers or have a rump with their littermates. Furthermore,good pup is the one who displays submissive position to livestock at all times. That means,when pup comes face to face with livestock,they must roll on their back and avert any sort of eye contact. My experience with LGD's are 2 Akbash,Maremma,2 Gr.Pyrr's,Anatolian mutt and 2 Kangals. Success rates were 1 Akbash and now 2 Kangals. Rest were complete failures as LGD's and now are entertaining their new masters as big lovable pets...All these worthless LGD's were out of so-called working parents.Guarding someone's backyard,porches or properties does not equal to a LGD. Navajo Indians raises mongrels as Livestock Protection Dogs,pups are socialized strickly with sheep and goats as of 5 weeks and their success rate is around 15% and that figure is reported with full time supervision of the pups. Regards.

When I was a child, I visited my family in North Georgia, about 1969. I was told, "bulldogs" make the best farm dogs, that loved the farm animals and would fight to the death to protect them. The breed American Bulldog actually started out as a livestock guard. Alen Scott first started selling pups in the "Game Cock Magizine" to guard chickins. But, many outcrosses of catch-dogs and other dogs have been introduced in the ABs. A number of farmers in the South still use various "unregistered" bulldogs in different regions, that have been used as long as anyone can remember. I use a breed of bulldogs known as White English Bulldog, not to be confused with the new fad white "English Bulldog." The WEB is a very old breed of bulldogs used in the Deep South for livestock protection as well as livestock retrieval when livestock is lost in the woods. At one time, cattle as well as swine were allowed to roam free. Bulldogs would round them up. This ability of WEBs to retrieve livestock, also makes them great for catching wild boar. I have used Great Pyreenes, however, they are a Flock Guard, and work without direction. Trainning them is futile. They do not come when called. Some have retained the working traits much better than others. They actually do not need to be subserviant to the livestock, but must be in control. Usually, they are indifferent when challenged by livestock, thus avoiding a battle by nonacknolgement of a fight. As for the breed, WEB, they are very trainable. First, in a litter of say 8 pups, only a couple have the so-called bulldog drives of herding/catchwork. This is, so far, the only breed I know that has both herders and livestock guards in the same breed. Most LGDs have a seperate small herding breed of dog to actually herd. www.freewebs.com/aafb

99% of the time absolutely not because modern AB breeders have selected for high prey drive for hunting and PP.Almost all modern AB lines are hybrid JDJxStandard and the JDJ lines have increased animal and man aggression.There are always exceptions and I know of one line of almost pure standard AB's here in Australia that after 4 generations of hard selection,has produced 1 AB bitch that herds sheep and cows.

Yes of course they can be. They are great to be kept alone with the sheep...Their prey drive will prevent from killing or even chasing them. There would be no concerns for predators, because there would be nothing left. Why havent I thought of this before! Thats how effective they can be...lol

:twisted: Tiago, that was bad :lol: Ausdog, do you have any footage or pics of the herding AB, that would be interesting to see regards Tony

tiago you obviously have no knowledge of the ab the ab is a utility breed and if raised with livestock they can work them and they would defo protect against predators. heres a video of a 5 mth old ab working sheep which will progress onto cattle when older. this dog is from performance bred ab's with a high prey and fight drive so i think she would be perfect for predator eradication http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NLKJG6oliU

Lewis do you know of any other footage of the AB working stock, or Ray do you have any footage with the WEB and stock work regards Tony

Hi Lewis, Can you please describe which traits ABs possess that could validate their possible success as a livestock guardian? I assume, as a livestock guardian, you are referring to a dog bonding with the herd and actually living with it. It is possible that you have seen ABs with characteristics no one else has. From the little I know, possessing high prey drive is SLIGHTLY incompatible with the role of a livestock guardian. I could be wrong, though. Regards :wink:

I agree with tiago, abs shouldnt be used as effective lgd. I own 2, and i know theyd likely kill or hurt the stock as soon as theyd protect it. Too much prey drive for it. Mike

It should be noted that while many usual LGD breeds do have a high defense drive, they also can and do (and in my opinion should) have some prey drive. It's simply overshadowed by their bonding and protectiveness of the flock. I do agree with Shred in saying that, providing the type and the history in the lines, it very well could be POSSIBLE to get an AB to be an LGD. The PROBABILITY of making him an effective and *trustworthy* LGD is the question.

Also an AB might go head to head with a predator instead of being content with herding it away. An AB gripping one wolf while the other four attack it is a scary idea. Imagine the vet bills even if it survived. I wonder how they would do if they were working with a LGD? A combo of three LGDs backed up by a couple of ABs would be hard to beat for either a man or a beast.

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tiago ok you say you know and everyone agrees with you but let me say this livestock protection is what the ab was bred for amongst other things!

Here are some pics of farm bred WEBs and there first intro to a domestic hog. For more info on the original use of ABs, I'd suggest reading Gladiator Dogs by Dr Carl Semenic. It's a real eye opener into all the crossbreeding and changing of the old type bulldogs. Here's the link... http://www.bttbab.com/arklitters.htm

Lewis, with all due respect, a high prey or fight drive is infact not the desired traits of a livestock guarding dog. My WEBs are very non dog agressive, however, when challenged by a direct threat, well that's a different story. Keep in mind, a number of old school game bred APBTs are infact non dog agressive, they would even turn away from a challenge of a dog on the street as if it would be beneath them to engage in battle with such a cur.

Gary, I fully agree with your idea of a LGD. The confussion comes from the fact that American Bulldogs are a newly established breed made of several different crossbreedings of old and modern type bull and mastiff type breeds. Originally, they were rarly used for catching wild boar and were a much different dog than today.

BossofBoss, you hit the nail on the head, WEBs do not grip and hold like a catch dog, they come in from the rear or side ripping fleash out of the stomac and snapping off the legs of intruding packs of K-9s. I also have an OTSB for catch work which I'd never send into battle with a pack of K-9s, nor can I trust her with livestock.

Lets all keep one thing in mind. LGD's (I think the name tells it all) have been bred and selected for thousands of years, to do one thing. Guard livestock. On the other hand we have people suggesting a breed that was used just recently for fighting, hunting, bull baiting.... and even suggesting to mix it with something else. So we have a dog that is first generation mix! Another thing, you say people in the south use them as LGDs. What do they guard from? I don't think there are any wolves there!? Coyotes? Alligators? Prey drive... also not a good thing in a LGD. You don't want your dog to chasing the predators. One thing they will eat him, or they will just get the dog away from the herd so others can get an easy kill.

raylene i know you know what you are talking about but ab's have been used as property guardian and livestock protection in the past im surprisd you neve mentioned that also ab's drives differ so much between lines one line may not be suitable for the said task whereas another would excel at the task if trained from a pup!

They were not livestock guardians...but GANG busters. Whenever predators were spotted, a kill dog would be turned loose on a mission... I guess you can assume that to be livestock protection. But that is not being a livestock guardian that lives and bonds with the flock...

Lewis, I agree with you, infact, if one reads the book Gladiator Dogs by Dr Carl Semenic, one will find his statement that when he first investigated the breed in the 1970s, "No one at the time spoke of hog catching." My first AB, a Kershner/JDJ has been used by me to round up and catch my goats and was self taught as well as a powerful protector against most any intruder, man or beast. However, the term "Off Switch' as used by AB people describes control of the drives that are only needed when needed. As LSGs, it is more important to keep the livestock calm, as a stampeed will kill more livestck than a preditor. A calm thinking type dog will save the most livestock. Many AB breeders can not distiush drive from heart. In the box, way more game breed APBTs won from heart, not drive.

Zumbul, in point of fact, when the Romans invaded England 2000 years ago, they were met by two types of fighting dogs, a larger and a smaller. The English dogs completly beat all the war dogs of all the lands the Romans had conqured. The Romans continued testing dogs in the arenas as gladiators. The Mastiff and Bulldog were well proven as the best up untill about 1800. The Mastiff was the true "Estate Guard" an estate being nothing more than a farm with livestock and family. The bulldog was the mastiff that also controled livestock of the most dangerous type, cattle and swine. These dogs were tested in pits and baiting becuase they were the best fighters, they are, in real form and funtion, livestock dogs. As for each of the various LGDs one thinks of as some pure breed of thousands of years, I'd suggest one take off the blinders, as these dogs were continually being developed. In the mountians between France and Spain, the Pyrs no doubt recieved shots of the Aluants. I've bred Pyrs, and seen the regressed traits. One female Pyr I breed will break a car tow cable like a peice of string. In the book, The New Complete Great Pyreenes, by Paul Strang, on page 4, you will see a painting of two Pyrs and an Aluant type bul;ldog fighting a wolf of a few hundred years ago. The base breed of the AB is the WEB and these have been developed and used by the Spanish Cracker cattlemen for several hundred years. Wolves, bears, yotes, Indian raids, panthers, cattle rustlers, wild dogs, the English came along in Georgia with simalar type bull and mastiff breeds. An old style mastif of England is known as "The Shepards Mastie" and was a rangie mostly white mastiff used by shepards to run down and kill wolves. These types of dogs were also well suited to use with slaves both by the Spanish and English, as slaves were treated as animals.

Lewis, sorry, I didn't get your complete meaning of your post. This is how I explain it to people, if you don't want a dog to jump in the water don't get a Lab, if you don't want your dog to fight, don't get a pit. The AB as a breed is infact so diversified as to working drives due to all the crossbreeding, but look at those first papered, JDJs Dick the Brusier was known for fighting packs of wild dogs comming after livestock, his son Scott's Dixi-man would heel and catch cattle and was one serious guard dog that needed no trainning, no sport protection titles, in Allen's words, "He could smell a crook." Selective breeding is the key. This is why I went back to the farm to start all over again. These WEBs are neither Scott nor JDJ and are the same as any old farmer remembers them. They are a completly different breed and were even when JDJ and AS were crossbreeding. Note the old ABs are shown in pics being kept chainned like ban-dogs. They could not be kept together except a male and female and even then they'd often fight each other.

check out this link. a lot to read but very insightful. http://bttbab.com/wORKING%20TRAITS.htm or if you dont want to read all that, let this pictures do the talking. Reading it all will help a lot though and I highly recommend you take the time to educate yourself. Its easier to understand things when you've had the opportunity to investigate all sides of an issue. "Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."

bttab, Are you trying to make a comparison between WEB and the other livestock guarding dogs?

I have bred Great Pyreenes, and most of the 32 pups I bred are still working on local farms. I am telling you from my own experiance, the WEB is a livestock guarding dog of great inteligence, power, and most of all - control. The WEBs are "on-call." They have been used in the Deep South by farmers for as long as anyone can remember. I suggest you talk with farmers over 40, 50, 60, 70 years old in the Deep South who have always known these dogs and the info has been passed down from their fathers and grandfathers. Sorry, these guys don't waste their time on the internet. Better than that, come to my farm when I'm not home and mess with my livestock and watch how quick you get tagged! But if your not wiling to investigate for yourself, please give us the respect of not condemming us without first-hand knowledge. Or read the book, Gladiator Dogs by Dr Carl Semenic who investigated American Bulldogs from the mid 1970s. Or read the artical in the American Bulldog Review with Allen Scott where he says, "Remember where I advertised to start with, it was in the "Gamecock Magizine" Most of the dogs I sold were for keeping coyotes and stuff out of your livestock." More than that, Jeff Clark has been breeding his strain of WEBs since 1964, and he sends his WEB in to sleep with his hogs. Most of the old bulldogs are being lost to crossbreeding for catch dogs, since this has become a popular sport and we are dedicated to saving what's left. :cry: Please understand, catch work, even on wild boar, is livestock retrieval; the catch dog does not kill. However, for real catch work on wild boar, may I suggest the Catahola? 2 - 3 Cats can round up and load on trailers 50 to 75 wild boar in a day. This is not a sport. :wink:

It is interesting to compare the "Brazilian Cabecudo Cattledog" as listed in the breeds section of this site, to the modern popular Fila of which has had many breeds crossed into it. One can make the corralation of the WEB and the AB, as the same fate of the Brazilian Cabecudo Cattledog.

Read Semencic? LOL Thats the same guy that says the Canary Islands name comes from the aboriginal dogs that lived there.... Pretty good source, huh? Look, killing or driving off predators has NOTHING to do with livestock guarding... If your dogs dont live 24/7 with the herd, they are not livestock guardians...if they do, then I apologize and you probably have real livestock guarding WEB. A livestock guardian is a dog that is LEFT alone for days with the herd, BONDS with them and protects them...PREY drive is very low, making this animal UNSUITABLE for retrieving or catching the cattle. Dont tell me about White English Bulldogs being pure yada yada, because there is a whole lot of cur blood in those so called "old time bulldogs that come from the farms of our forefathers"............Hence why the crossbreeding to smaller bulldog types in order to develop a more capable dog for tasks that demanded more heart than you get from a type of dog loaded with cur genes.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....................... Isn't the DEEP SOUTH below I-10 interstate.....hahahahahaha what is a SPANISH CRACKER CATTLEMAN.. Realdogs

Not sure what you mean with your post realdog... Are you talking to me?

Tiago,you are fine no prob.Just go easy on us cur owners I have some mountain cur,Black mouth cur,and some cross dogs(that some would call a cur or mongrel catahoulaxredbonexridgeback,and some curxpit, ) but there pure hog dogs earn there food all working dogs.So define cur for me please. Realdogs My post was to the above post of yours refusing to get into it just had to laugh.

bird dog, for instance....LOL Seems some old "bulldogs from our forefathers" are loaded with that....

Tigeo, I think you are confusing LGDs with Flock Guards. Flock Guards like the Great Pyreenes are left with the flock with no humans for weeks at a time. They actually make all their own choices as to if they are to fight or take the herd to saftey allowing preditors to take one or two week members of the flock. One will save from losing several members of the flock from a stampeed, allowing one or two to be taken. The WEBs were developed for grazing large herds of cattle in La Florida, and worked with the cattlemen. They therefore take direction from the handler. Many cattle were left behind in the swamps from the Spanish Crackers. They are still living wild in the swamps, today. It is this base type working dog that makes it an excellent farm type livestock protection dog. And yes, no writer is perfect. I do not agree with everything Dr Carl Semenic says in everyone of his books, no more than Dr Dieter Fleg. For that matter, I even correct myself. The info of dogs is of such vast amounts, Dr Carl Semenic as I will say we are not experts, but students. Interesting, subject, the Canary Dog. They too were used for farm work. And my book on world history tells me the Spanish were in the Canary Islands the same time they were in the New World. Too bad, the Canary Dogs are now nothing more then ban-dogs from what I can see. Now, Dr Carl Semenic did investigate the American Pit Bulldog back in the mid 1970s. I know what he's says is true, as I have been investigating bulldogs in the South since the late 1960s. And I'll post what he wrote in 1984 in the next thread. Take it for what it's worth. Infact, it's my advice to get off this "new idiot box" the computor and go and see for yourself what these dogs are. Visit them in feild study, on the farm.

I think there might be a little confussion on terms & useage here. I don't think an American Bulldog is a good flock gardian in the Euro/Asia concept. However, as a farm dog I'd pitty the fox or coyote that decided to challenge the Bulldog on his ground.

from the book, "The World of Fighting Dogs," by Dr Carl Semenic.... "Whatever the original componets of the American Pit Bull Dog are, the breed apparently reproduces true to type, given allowences for variation within the breed. Its current use as a fighting dog is not primarily as a pit dog, although there are scattered reports of occasional staged matches between American (Pit) Bull Terriers and American Pit Bull Dogs. Instead these dogs are used in the South, where breeders see a need for a powerful, aggressive dog to aid in the slaughter of packs of wild dogs that cause damage to livestock." "As this is a common use for this breed (and in fact is the use for which it is most often produced) it is curious that there is no mention of aggression toward other dogs in the breed standard." Now, here is a point in which I disagree with Dr Carl Semenic, aggression is fear and leads to fear biters and I understand does great in the junk yard but not for livestock/family protection. :roll:

I agree with tiago, the notion of the WEB being a breed, let alone a pure one at that is a pipe dream. Its a mix of anything and everything that could and would work that the farmers had access too. Be it a cross of apbt,ab,boxers, rotties, BMC, coon hounds, which isnt a bad thing at all, they r healthy hard working dogs who dont have an ounce of quit in em. They, nor the AB, are true lgd. They wont hesitate to catch and kill coyotes wild canids, big cats or even wolves, but they dont bond to the livestock they are "guarding" like say a Kangal or Cao. They kill because its something thats not supposed to be there, but theyd also not hesitate to kill a cow or sheep for pissing it off. And, i have to point out, these dogs were used in Pairs, usualy male and female, and would be sent upon an entire pack of wild dogs or canids, and they were taught to attack the alpha's, and destroy them, hence taking away the will to fight and kill from the rest of the pack. These dogs first and foremost should NOT be family pets, but working monsters who will do anything you ask of them, just to get their heads petted. Mike

As a matter of fact, Platz, over 2,000 years ago, Varro wrote of livestock herding and protection dogs as being all white, with slightly undershot mouths, large heads, and drooping ears. Keep in mind, the Aluants taken to France from England were used for livestock protection as well as hunting wild boar and blood sports. On the other side of the Pyreenen mountins is Spain who also imported Aluants from England, take a good look at the Spanish Mastiff of today. Is it the same breed type as the Pyrs? Spain also took Aluants from England to Cuba in 1556 and created a number of breeds of which the Cuban Mastiff and the Cuban Bulldog were developed for working cattle. Cuba is 90 miles from Florida. On the second voyage of Columbus, 1493, he brought cattle and dogs to now Haittie, named then Hispinola meaning New Spain. This location is right below Cuba. La Florida, (The Land of Flowers) was owned by Spain untill 1819 and Spanish Crackers were still herding large herds of cattle in South Florida when the town of Kississimi (aka "Cow Town USA) was started. In front of the court house, there's a statue of a cattleman, his wife, and a WEB. Cattle is livestock. These herds numbered 2,000 to 5,000 head. Since the fence laws were inacted, these dogs are now used only on farms and ranches. The WEB still produces both herding type and protection type in the same litter. Most LGDs require two breeds.

Actually, I also say the WEB is an admixture of whatever worked. For that matter, tell me a breed that isn't? As for bird dog, even John P Colby wrote of rummers of Spanish Pointers being used in the APBT. This may or may not be true. What is true, is I can speak to any old farmer from North Florida through Middle Georgia and parts of Alabama, and I get the same story of the same breed type performing the same funtion for as long as they ever knew. And I've never heard of a WEB pointing or setting. I have seen my AKC Great Dane do this. bulldog, I guess you didn't see the pics of my WEBs kissing a hog on the mouth? Is this not bonding? Infact, there's such a thing as too much bonding, as many has seen LGDs take baby goats and lambs from their mothers.

This has gone on long enough don't know how or where all this bulldog bullbutter is going but first lets get some things straight.In all my experiences with cattle people first and foremost Blackmouth cur,red or yellow cur,Cracker cur,Catahoula cur,Blue/red heelers,Aussie shepard,Collie or a mix there of,or a bloodline of linebred dog that go back some 30-70years, are the dog of choice in old cattlemen.Curs where often times to rough on cattle so they were bred to a softer dog because cows were money and the cows had to remain in good condition.in doing so somrtimes created a too soft,dog for some as some task required a grittier dog.So bulldogs and rougher dogs had to be added back in some bloodlines.Now demografics played a big part as to how the dogs phenotype was set.A cur from texas and a cur from florida had to completely different builds.Secondly hog hunting has been happening since before the 70's so lets get than out of the way.in the 60's you could often free range hogs(domestic)that had a mark and filed in town of a regesitered mark on the ear. and round them through out the year often a sounder(consisting of sows and shoats) was lead by a dom. alpha sow that was of age and had been through the process of herding so much that the bay dogs would heard them back to the farm house with out putting to much pressure(teeth) on them.Now cattle that have or been worked this generaly works the same way.There are times when unruly or wilder cows get in some thicket and dogs where sent in to get them out.Also refered to as yellow jackets,stingers,etc.The cur dog in Florida region is a bulkier dog,seen to many of them, been to to many Ranches down in Florida where all those Cracker cattlemen have lived and families have lived since 1800's on land they homesteaded.All those people never was a bulldog ever brought up in topic of conversation.Cracker cur have often been thought to be a white dog not the case the original Craker cur was a red/yellow dog.white and light colors were accepted because of the bloodlines was so small.and trying to keep it going did what the had to do.But sure as I'm telling this a novice on the florida cur would mistake a florida cracker cur for a 3/4 bulldog 1/4 cur mix. definetly a 50-/50 cross.When you talk of this WEB I think of a cur dog from florida.Not a bulldog.But what do I know. Realdogs

Where is the bulldog at: www.mafafolk.org/?q=node/153 Realdogs