Gentleman I agree with you both., it really is all about proofing the dogs. ALL bite training be it PP, Shutzhund or Ring sport is a game. PP just gives a dog more varity. My own phyisophical problem with Shutzhund is that it should have stayed a test that was pass/fail vs. a pointed exercize. I've personaly trained with a few Shutzhund dogs that really could care less that the helper had the sleeve on and would happy take a bare arm if offered during an excersize. Further, I've yet ro meet a Helper that hasn't taken an intental bite to the body or unprotected arm/hand during an excersize. I've also oberserved two GSD that were dedicated face biters and would egarly attempt to demostrate that to any helper that didn't offer a proper sleeve presentation 8O