[quote1238618321=bright] [quote1238517907=PUGNACES-BRITANNIAE-AK] [quote1238037920=bright] there are a few sylvan pics above! (that snarling dog at the end of the leash! 8) ) [/quote1238037920] i know, that´s why i have mentioned it.;) but it is really interesting what kind of different dogs in terms of phenotype all get labeled as Sylvans. of course there are in many breeds different types of the same breed and we often have breeds where we have a mountain type, a steppe type or a valley type. but when it comes to sylvans, i think we should not just call dogs that look so differently by the same name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and i do not only refer to the lenth of the coat, i also speak about body structure) dogs that are so different in phenotype in most cases also have different character traits and temperament. just compare the dogs above, that have big similarities with certain dogs of the himalaya region, with the Sylvans i post now. i definitely like the short coated Sylvans more, here watch that awesome 7 month old female i have deleted the female Sylvan because of personal reasons ;) if you look at the second pic and the dogs build you can see that if it has the right temperament it also will make a good large game hunter. (and the breed profile here tells that Sylvan were used as both guards and large game hunters) [/quote1238517907] well, first let us all know the following things as you seem to have done quite a research regarding this breed. what is a sylvan? (we are used to all these paragraphs on websites.. those things have not been able to clear our doubt.) you say that not all dogs should be 'labeled' as sylvans. this statement shows that you have a very clear idea about what a sylvan is.. how do you define a proper sylvan? and i say that the short coated dog in your pic appears to have been labeled as sylvan.. so, how do you prove its authenticity? and you are referring to the long coated dog and saying that it is 'labeled' as a sylvan.. what made you say so? any facts which can support your assertion and enlighten us as to what the breed actually is and should be like? and about character differing with the phenotype or in layman's words, 'built and structure and looks', i don't think so.. since you made a general statement here, i can show you many like looking HMs with different temperaments. and at the same time, i can show you two structurally differing HMs having similar characteristics and temperament! and you further say that dogs that look SO differently are referred to as sylvan.. but let us know which one is authentic and tell us why and how it is authentic and another one is something else? i could say that the one in the pic is otherwise than what traditional sylvan was.. you said 'just compare the dogs above, that have big similarities with certain dogs of the himalaya region, with the Sylvans i post now.' yes! i compared... these dogs look different, but shows its ancestry up to a reasonable degree. whose progenitor is whom? could you prove that these short coated dogs which are called sylvans are the progenitors of the long coated type which, to my eyes look more authentic? or could it be the other way round? analyzing these things and calling one type as -something which is labeled as sylvan- without putting forth necessary proof to support you assertion creates ambiguity.. based on lil of what i know, i won;t comment on this breed.. as i have never seen one or done any meaningful research in this regard.. so, you enlighten us.. kindly clarify our doubts.. i'm sure many others will have similar doubts.. [/quote1238618321] there are way better people here to explain things about Sylvans. but you can believe me that the coated dog which i have deleted and you told it is not "black and tan" but black and rust was a pure Sylvan! i know it had clearly a different phenotype, but my source seems really to be realiable. but one thing i am sure about, you cannot have such different traits in one breed like a curled tail and straight tail. i have seen dogs labeled as pure sylvans with tails curled like the tails of Kangals, while other dogs have straight tails. as my source showed me shortcoated sylvans without curled tails and i believe him to tell the truth, as he has to do with the breed for a long time the long coated one with curled tails cannot be pure Sylvans. still that doesn´t mean that there are no long coated Sylvans and i hav enever told that, but i say if dogs with a straight tail are pure Sylvans, the dogs with the curled tails an di only see that in so called "long coated Sylvans" cannot be pure Sylvans. ;) what do you think about it*-)