[quote=poseidon] I had forgotten about his one.... Time and effort can be easily directed by an organization such as the AKC. If the AKC changes the standard (done) and have a legion of judges who expects to approach any dog in the ring and put their hands in its face (done) then anyone wishing to sell puppies with AKC papers will select for such traits as to make their dogs conform to the prescribed norm. It is quite easy actually..... and many thought this topic was dead.[/quote] This is incorrect factually. First, the Breed is not AKC recognized. (not done) Second, the AKC does not "direct" it's "efforts" in breeding, as a breeding program does. There is really no comparison between the Russian breeding program, as an example, and AKC recognition. Nor do the "legions of judges" apply that non existent direction. Third, there is no requirement to show a dog to register puppies, or sell them with AKC papers. Most telling of all, all the factors that really do apply re AKC, apply with ANY registry/show structure. If AKC is so terrible, then so is FCI, and the breed is already "lost". This becomes, whether intended or not, a denial of using any registry or shows to value dogs. All of the comments seem to imply that there is an intentional effort to "change the breed", when changing the breed is never the intent. Then even if not an intentional effort, that somehow the breed will be "changed" to something else it should not be. Should not be according to whom? might be the first thing to consider. Once you get past that, you still need to deal with how that change might happen. To suggest, for example : 'Even if they dont intend to change the breed, they will, and to something it shouldn't be. They cant help it, it's how they work.' Is also incorrect.No registry/show structure seeks to change a breed to something it should not be. A breed stays, or becomes something, based on what the breeders do with it. Recognition, AKC, FCI, take your pick, can never replace respect for the breed in all its facets, and sound breeding programs based on that respect. No AKC recognition leaves the direction of the breed completely uncontrolled in the US, as it is right now in the US. AKC recognition provides some measure of control, directly, through the standard. Less directly, through the aggressiveness of the Parent Breed club structure and operations. That's just how it works. Pointing to failures in the care taken re the standard, or failures in the structure and pro active participation of the breed club, don't change that. Arguing that the breed can't have a clear definition of conformation, just creates more confusion, and less of a breed. The same holds true for some of the discussions of temperament vs training. You need to work to make, and keep, a breed on track. You can either work with better tools, or leave it to the wind. A standard, and even a show process, require doing something more than arguing opposing extreme viewpoints; for the benefit of the breed. Without that, the breeds future is left to the whims, and sometimes even misrepresentations of individuals. The whole issue of how a dog behaves in the ring has been beaten to death. Yet that continues to underly comments that include judges, and hands on. You can train a properly balanced temperament to behave as needed to be judged in the ring. That is not breed specific. Being a dog, vs a Wolf, means it can be trained more easily, and more reliably, than a wolf might be. That's part of the definition of domesticated. Dogs are domesticated, whatever the breed. Every person who talks about how ferocious their dog should be in one circumstance or another, is at the same time saying "but he is trainable" in some other. If not, they wouldnt be able to get near their own dog . Meanwhile, miniature poodles can, and have been, dismissed from the ring for refusing to be judged. It's all about balanced temperament and training, nothing more. All the mystery or reality, about how a dog behaves in the field, apply to the field. Not to the training for the show ring. How you train, how much work it is, differs depending on the breed. Training doesn't change the inherent nature of the dog or whether it passes that along to its progeny.