[quote=LeeRobinson"][quote="Denno]Bantu’s legend still lives on 40 years later. What is it that makes a “Swinford Bandog”? Is it not fair to say that anyone who crosses a game tested APBT with an OEM has a Swinford dog? The Rotti match proves very little in my opinion. It is this well publicized account which seems to have put Bantu on a pedestal thereby making him something of a benchmark as to what a Bandog should be in the minds of most people. I’m not intending to Put Dr. Swinford or Bantu down, but merely trying to point out that there’s nothing particularly special about the Swinford program as opposed to what others have done before and since. As for the Tosa being incorporated in the Swinford program, I have no idea, even if it was, I can only say “big deal”.[/quote] I am sure it had nothing to do with the overall success of the program...as most of the first generation dogs were APBT x EM. To a lesser degree there were also some APBT x Neos...and other mastiffs were used in a much lesser degree...but most of the original Swinford dogs were either APBT x EM or products of multiple generation breedings. All those involved with the original program eventually faded away and by the mid 80's even the multiple generation dogs that were produced by breeding Swinfords original work back together began disappearing until no known program was sustained.[/quote] Lee, If all the dogs from the Swinford bloodlines are gone than there IS no more Swinfords IMO,just because you breed two like dogs does not make them that if his dogs and all the dogs in the program from his partners are gone.then that bloodline of dogs is gone,JMO you are breeding your own bandogs.and its like this from my world on bloodlines if i knew that the direction of my breeding program and there were dogs back in the early 90's i would have got one and had him on a chain for 10 year waiting to stud out when i got my program together to preserve that swinford blood. Gentlemen, .also whats with all the secret partner,pics and dogs in the breeding big deal just put the info out there so everyone can learn from it why does it have to be my daddy is bigger than your daddy and i got and you don't,also its hard for me to subsribe to the theory that one cross is better than the other. i'm absolutely positive that there are culls in every breed,cross,and litter.and if your not culling and holding your dogs to a higher standard and letting everything make it you have kennel blindness or just out for a buck.and the.......( program)....... is a False.IE i had a litter of 15 pups from my performance bred AB's and there 7 on this earth from them that i felt had the traits and attributes that i was willing to let leave my yard and be placed in the hands of dogmen and hunters that respected my program. GR abd LEE, in my world when the BS gets this heated we just let our dogs do the talking for us people all the time talk about my dogs and how good there dogs are i just invite them down and the rest is the rest.Now please understand i have been a fan of the bandog and bully breeds for a while now and owned a couple.I have had some conversations and made a few road trips to look at good dogs and the speak with dogmen.and have some visiting me as a matter of fact all the way from Cali right now just to look and see what my parnter and i are doing with the dogs. In addition i have spoke to Lucero back in the early to middle 90's.we talked for hours his breeding program and standards for producing good dogs was excellent. also at the same time there was Wilson in canada who had some pretty hard dogs from spain and has a good program.if you can get these harder dogs from these two you have something IMO. one of my favorite dog's Mangus owned by Dan Wilson and this is not a post to stir things up just felt the need to post Realdogs