Murray, thanks for the post. You are probably one of the few that here that is BOTH a historian and a person with working dog experience...but as I mentioned earlier I personally have found such types rare...and GENERALLY only among people that have done dogs for a LONG TIME. The mentioning of a Tosa being used in the Swinford project prior to me bringing it in has indeed become WAY overplayed and as Murray stated it was not any SIGNIFICANT portion of long term breedings. I only mentioned the breed because it HAS been used before and this includes work prior to my use of the Tosa. I believe I gave Murray enough information in a private message that he could confirm what I stated to be true if he wishes to confirm it (which is only that the tosa has been used in the Swinford program by some of the people originally involved in the program long before my involvement)...as I know he was familiar with some of the people originally involved. AlphaBlueBlood..., I have a question for you... [blockquote]It may be difficult for westerners to understand but those that know asian culture know the ethics that they live by[/blockquote] Do you think Japanese that are involved in organized crime do so because of the "ethics" of it...or because of the financial gain? Of course, I think we can all see that such a suggestion contains a great deal of irony...for the answer to that is obvious. People get involved in crime because of curruption...for financial gain and for power. The entire idea of "organized crime" goes against ethics...and we all know that crime does indeed exist in Japan....so to suggest that such dogs could not be obtained is simply not a valid argument. Also, I wish to clarify something else. Murray did not say the tosa was not used...but that he believed it was not CONSISTENTLY USED...and on that note he would be correct. Again, the primary components of the Swinford program was APBT x EM.