[blockquote]Actually I also said that I hope the bitch was doing fine on UGM, but unfortunately the thread was deleted with-in 5 minutes. Talking about Half wit's....I have a copy of the thread, I'm more then happy to paste it up here and share! [/blockquote] Jess...i do not mind at all if you post that thread! These people have no room to be advising or critizing anyone....they used my male and would not even...give me a straight answer on if she was in whelp. Why the deception? They let the bitch go past her due date and lost all the puppies. The rules of thumb my repro vet has always used is day 60 for a c-section. When doing a surgical insemination the total gestation is 60 days not 63 days because the sperm is put directly into the horns and at the correct timing. So in the case of a surgical Never let the bitch pass day 60 for a c-section! The female I have a litter with now.....was surgically inseminated and went into labour day 59...we had eight big fat healthy puppies!