Question - Artificial Insemination and C-Section in Neo

[quote=Katwoman]Gary you really think any serious Neapolitan breeder is going to give this thread the time of day? The tone of the thread and the forum in general is anything but open to real experience with the breed. Jessica, although your story is sad, sad your inexperience put those two dogs through their ordeal. You are a poster child for BYB'er. You bought your Neo's from two well known breeders, did you ever consult them to gauge their breeding merit? Since you are a self proclaimed show person what titles have they won? You stated you bought your dogs out of champion lines.......did you health test your stock prior to breeding them? I am sure they have been OFA'd or Penn-Hip'd correct? You state your focus is performance, so they must be titled in something? So you breed them based on? People like you shouldn't breed dogs because you haven't put forth the effort. Your facts are wrong, you have the best chance of conception with Natural conception then Surgical Insemination then Artifical Insemination. Your inexperience should have lead you to either get one of the two(if not both breeders) to mentor you or you should have left the dog in the capable hands of a vet for whelping. The amount of type had nothing to do with your inexperience in mating, pre-natal care, labor and whelping. I hope no one ever sells you another Neapolitan and that you fix the two you have.[/quote] So Kat-Care to share YOUR story ABOUT HOW YOU LOST YOUR LITTER AND ALLOWED YOUR BITCH TO CARRY FOR 67 DAYS?! Is THAT CORRECT....Please TELL US YOUR EXPERIENCE? WHY WASN'T YOUR BITCH LEFT AT THE VET SINCE YOUR NOT ABLE TO HANDLE IT EITHER?! AND What about Linda Young?! PLEASE Since YOU want to rip a stranger apart for nothing...eh' maybe you should fix your bitch too huh?

Phil- I'm sorry to hear about you litter's death also, were you trying to whelp naturally? What happened I was told only one made it?

[quote=babigirl] So Kat-Care to share YOUR story ABOUT HOW YOU LOST YOUR LITTER AND ALLOWED YOUR BITCH TO CARRY FOR 67 DAYS?! Is THAT CORRECT....Please TELL US YOUR EXPERIENCE? WHY WASN'T YOUR BITCH LEFT AT THE VET SINCE YOUR NOT ABLE TO HANDLE IT EITHER?! AND What about Linda Young?! PLEASE Since YOU want to rip a stranger apart for nothing...eh' maybe you should fix your bitch too huh?[/quote] hellsyea the claws are comin out!! rock that sh!t babigirl!

WoW pretty quick to judge..... .....But really slow on answering questions? You blew up my friends PM'S to find out about me, BUT when your asked a straight forward question about your breeding no comments now? Sodapop-You ever get ANYTHING from these people?

[quote=babigirl] Sodapop-You ever get ANYTHING from these people?[/quote] nope nada nuttin :lol:

John.... they don't come much [size=24]bigger[/size] than the 2 at lady of the lake, from what I have been told by a few who know them. LMAO

Actually I also said that I hope the bitch was doing fine on UGM, but unfortunately the thread was deleted with-in 5 minutes. Talking about Half wit's....I have a copy of the thread, I'm more then happy to paste it up here and share! 8)

lynnicks; As I stated on UMG, this is a private matter between the Stud Kennel and ours. This is not going to be debated in a public forum. Unlike Jessica's post, where she posted her inexperience and claimed she was educating all non-neo owners of why neo breeders AI (laugh) and tried to discredit the two breeders she bought her dogs from, the hints of 'our' story on here are quite over fabricated. p.s. If you were called familar then the answers to the questions you asked would already be known. You can goad and prod all you want, but your intentions are suspect, as is most posts concerning the Neapolitan.

Too Funny.....I'm very close with both breeders...No discredit was given...AND they KNEW OF EVERYTHING BEFORE IT WAS POSTED! LOL Keep slinging your mudd...Everyone here know how full of it YOU are.....Such a Liar and Fake as hell... YOU and others like YOU are the THE REASON WHY this Breed is so messed up! Keep to your trash peddling... YOUR A JOKE HERE!

[blockquote]There is a very small window of opportunity to get puppies out - day 61 is the usual date for Neapolitan Mastiffs to give birth - if not out by then you have 24 hours to do so. We have had bitches with large litters give birth at 57 and 58 days - fully formed puppies with no problems. [/blockquote] Days are counted from the DATE OF OVULATION, not the date of breeding. Ovulation date can only be determined accurately by hormone testing sent out to laboratory.

[quote=lynnicks]Read the questions carefully I asked if 63 days is normal I already know the answer but was wondering whether anyone could enlighten me on whether there could be a reason to go to 67 days without going to the vet. [/quote] No. The pups begin to overgrow and placentas detach after 63 days (from the date of ovulation determinable only by hormone testing). If the birth process doesnt start by the 63rd day, the pups' heartbeats should be monitored by ultrasound to determine if they are in distress.

Frozen semen requires surgical implant. The window for implant is reduced to 12 hours, 2 days after ovulation as pinpointed by hormone tests. Same delivery time - 63 days post ovulation. Litters tend to be smaller but much depends on the quality of the semen, age of female etc. I have gotten 12 pups born from frozen semen.

[quote=lynnicks]Thank you Stacey I did that with my litter but was really asking if there was another way which I didnt know that others do and maybe calculate it differently. I am always open to different ideas and was just interested in new ideas. I also monitor the dog that is why I spend 24/7 with a new mother because I found the dog knows better than any vet or book. I think you know your dog the signs will be there[/quote] Progesterone Testing - A Successful Breeder by Brian E. Greenfield, D.V.M. Do you wake up in a cold sweat fearing you have missed a breeding date? Are you feeling stressed as your bitch’s due date approaches? Worried that you are going to waste the last vial of frozen semen from your champion stud? A successful breeding program does not have to consist of one panic-laden situation to the next, but all too often this occurs. As a veterinarian working in a practice that sees over 900 dogs for artificial insemination and performs over 250 cesarean sections annually, I have learned to rely on and have confidence in the value of accurate and timely progesterone testing in the bitch. Although it seems that some people thrive under stressful conditions, replacing panic with informative scientific data invariably results in larger, healthier litters and happier owners. In today’s era of co-ownership of valuable stud dogs and breeding bitches, it is not uncommon to have four or six differing opinions on the timing of a breeding. Indeed there are a lot of options. One breeding or two? Should it be a natural, vaginal, transcervical, or surgical breeding? The questions mount and the stress can build, but if you are armed with a basic working knowledge of the bitch’s reproductive system and accurate progesterone tests, you can make good decisions. The progesterone test is your best friend. First, let’s review the basics. Prior to coming in season (estrus), serum progesterone levels in the bitch are low, less than 2ng (ng=nanograms). As the cycle continues, progesterone levels slowly climb to a level of 5ng, upon which ovulation occurs. The ovulation date can be as early as day 7 and as late as day 27 of the estrous cycle, emphasizing the importance of the blood test. Once a bitch hits 5ng and ovulates, subsequent serum progesterone levels can vary greatly. For example, at three days post ovulation we routinely see progesterones that may range from as low as lOng to as high as 60ng, depending on the bitch. For ovulation purposes we are only interested in the day she exceeds 5ng. I commonly get the question, "Doc, we only ran one progesterone test on my bitch and it was 15ng, when did she ovulate?" The answer is impossible to know based on one test. I have seen bitches at 15ng one day after ovulation as well as 5, 10, 20, or 40 days after ovulation. You must have one test below 5ng and one above 5ng to determine ovulation day. For most bitches we start testing 6 days after the onset of vulvar swelling and bleeding, and we test every 1-3 days until ovulation, depending on the situation. After ovulation, serum progesterone levels will remain elevated, regardless of whether or not the bitch is pregnant, for approximately two months, at which point they return to near Ong. It is important to note that vaginal bleeding, swelling, "flagging," and receptivity to males is predominantly a response to estrogens in the bitch’s bloodstream, and not a reliable indicator of progesterone and consequently ovulation. She may or may not be receptive at the proper time. The use of physical indicators alone for breeding may not be a chance worth taking, especially with valuable semen. So what does knowing the ovulation day do for us? It tells us when the eggs will be fertile, which is important with all breedings, but especially so with fresh chilled extended semen and with frozen semen. Once ovulated, a bitch’s eggs take approximately 48 hours to become fertile. They will then remain fertile for approximately 48 hours. The idea is to maximize contact time between viable semen and fertile eggs. This requires a brief discussion on semen longevity. Fresh semen can remain fertile in the bitch’s uterus for 3-5 days and in some cases even longer, depending on quality. Fresh chilled semen, because of energy lost in the cooling and subsequent warming process, may live only 24-48 hours in the uterus. Frozen semen, due to the stress of the freezing process and energy lost, may live only 12-24 hours in the uterus. Clearly, the shorter the sperm’s life span, the more paramount it becomes to know when it should be inseminated to allow for maximum contact time with fertile eggs. In the case of fresh semen, there is more flexibility for two reasons. First, there is usually not a limited quantity, and second, it lives a long time. We routinely recommend breeding days 1 and 3 or days 2 and 4 post ovulation with fresh semen, though one breeding is usually sufficient. With fresh chilled extended semen, because of a 24-48 hour life span, we recommend breeding 2 days after ovulation. As we discussed earlier, the bitch’s eggs are just becoming fertile at this point, so we should have 1-2 days of good contact time. In the case of frozen semen, we recommend waiting three days after ovulation to do the breeding. This may make our clients nervous that we are waiting too long. However, it ensures that all the eggs are fertile when we put semen into the uterus that may live only 12 hours. We do not have the luxury of waiting around for eggs to become fertile. We have found the highest levels of success with frozen semen following surgical insemination and recommend it exclusively. Our levels of success using the above timing recommendations have been excellent; however, the manner in which a bitch is bred natural, vaginal insemination, transcervical insemination with an endoscope, or surgical insemination-must be carefully considered depending on factors such as reproductive history, age, physical characteristics, and semen quality. Having an accurate ovulation date at the beginning of a pregnancy is also very important at the end of a pregnancy. A bitch’s due date is 63 days from ovulation, regardless of breeding days. This is extremely valuable for planned c-sections, due to such factors as breed conformation, litter size, prior medical history, or complications arising during the pregnancy. It is also very helpful when whelping. Knowing an exact due date not only helps breeders prepare for the arrival of a litter, but, often more importantly, it can alert us to a premature or overdue labor, allowing for prompt medical intervention if indicated. Progesterone monitoring can also be important during gestation. Some bitches have a problem maintaining adequate levels of progesterone during a pregnancy, usually resulting in resorbed or aborted fetuses. Monitoring progesterone levels is critical in bitches with such histories, as supplementation of progesterone at the proper times could mean the difference between live or dead puppies. Often we are confronted with owners who have difficulty "catching" a bitch’s heat cycle. This is usually due to minimal outward physical signs such as vulvar swelling and bleeding. We recall that progesterone levels stay elevated for approximately two months after ovulation in all bitches, whether pregnant or not. Obtaining an elevated progesterone level in such an animal at the very least indicates she was in season in the last two months, often helping a breeder know approximately when to expect the next cycle. Conversely, a low progesterone level, less than 2.5ng, means there have been no eggs ovulated in the past two months. This may alert a breeder to an upcoming cycle, or, if the level remains chronically low, the veterinarian may be alerted to begin a thorough medical workup. The usefulness of accurate and timely progesterone testing should not be underestimated. It is a valuable tool and in some cases of critical importance in helping a veterinarian and breeder choose the proper course of action. Proper use and interpretation of these tests will result in not only more pregnancies, but larger, healthier litters, fewer complications with your bitch, insight into potential problems, and, as I have experienced, fewer panicked telephone calls at three o’ clock in the morning. Dr. Greenfield is an associate in the reproduction practice headed by Robert Hutchinson, DvM.; he can be contacted at the Animal Clinc Northview, 34910 Center Ridge Rd., North Ridegville, OH 44039, (440) 327-8282 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Jess.... Wasn't Fenice(spelling) born from a natural breeding, and whelp? Which would explain trying to do it yourself, seeing as your bitch came from it? Which would tear a huge hole right through the heart of the moronic claims made by some. Or was I misunderstanding you when we talked the other day.

"The two Neos I have came from champion lines of great breeders and have healthy parents. Both dogs were the breeders’ pick of litters and to purchase alone I spent $7,000.00. Both dogs came from both long lines of c-section, and AI .... maybe I’m expecting too much from these dogs to be able to do things naturally. Maybe the maternal instinct is all that is left. I don't think I will try and breed these two again. I love this breed but I am not a breeder and never plan to be. " Jessica wrote. But haven't we beat this horse to death? I do hope Jessica will get an experienced breeder in Neapolitans to mentor.

[blockquote]Actually I also said that I hope the bitch was doing fine on UGM, but unfortunately the thread was deleted with-in 5 minutes. Talking about Half wit's....I have a copy of the thread, I'm more then happy to paste it up here and share! [/blockquote] Jess...i do not mind at all if you post that thread! These people have no room to be advising or critizing anyone....they used my male and would not even...give me a straight answer on if she was in whelp. Why the deception? They let the bitch go past her due date and lost all the puppies. The rules of thumb my repro vet has always used is day 60 for a c-section. When doing a surgical insemination the total gestation is 60 days not 63 days because the sperm is put directly into the horns and at the correct timing. So in the case of a surgical Never let the bitch pass day 60 for a c-section! The female I have a litter with now.....was surgically inseminated and went into labour day 59...we had eight big fat healthy puppies!

As a matter of Fact YES she was born all natural :D Shani Corrected me on that the day after I wrote my blog, on my site it talks about it...But anyways Yes, Fenice came from a natural tie and a whelp that was at home and done by candle light with her family, couldn't get any better then that I must say.

[quote=EsqCaucasians]Days are counted from the DATE OF OVULATION, not the date of breeding. Ovulation date can only be determined accurately by hormone testing sent out to laboratory.[/quote] [quote=lynnicks] I asked if 63 days is normal I already know the answer but was wondering whether anyone could enlighten me on whether there could be a reason to go to 67 days without going to the vet. [/quote] 63 days is the generalized average, this means some dogs will whelp sooner, some later, 67 days is within reason although I would be nervous if it was my own dog. This is from the LH surge ovulation, two completely different things. To get an appropriate idea of timing and to safely schedule a caesarian section, progesterone testing, vaginal cytology and vaginal morphology all must be considered. AI using frozen semen can be quite successful and is an important tool when dealing with small populations- what a great way to reintroduce lost variation in any breed. Frozen semen does not require surgical AI, although I would recommend at least transcervical AI to my clients so that a reasonable success rate can be achieved. Insemination dates post LH surge do vary depending on type of insemination (natural, vaginal AI, transcervical AI, surgical AI) and type of semen (fresh, chilled, frozen) that info is found on PubMed or through an experienced veterinarian. Robin

Who ever got the idea she went 67 has the wrong information.

[quote=BluHouse] 63 days is the generalized average, this means some dogs will whelp sooner, some later, 67 days is within reason although I would be nervous if it was my own dog. This is from the LH surge ovulation, two completely different things. [/quote]A bitch’s due date is 63 days from ovulation. Please refer to Dr. Greenfield article posted earlier in thread.

[quote="EsqCaucasians"]A bitch’s due date is 63 days from ovulation. Please refer to Dr. Greenfield article posted earlier in thread.[/quote] Thanks but I get my information from veterinary texts, my repro colleagues or primary research not some random vet.

[quote="BluHouse"][quote="EsqCaucasians"]A bitch’s due date is 63 days from ovulation. Please refer to Dr. Greenfield article posted earlier in thread.[/quote] Thanks but I get my information from veterinary texts, my repro colleagues or primary research not some random vet.[/quote] Random vet? Surprised you don't know him. Dr. Greenfield, Animal Clinic Northview, is collegue of internationally known reproductive veterinarian Dr. Robert Hutchinson. http://www.northviewvet.com/ DR. ROBERT V. HUTCHISON Education 1972 The Ohio State University DVM Special Interest(s) Canine Reproduction, Infertility, Pediatric Care Dr. Hutchison is the director of the International Canine Semen Bank - Ohio, a canine frozen semen center which he started in 1984. He speaks nationally and internationally to veterinary and breeder groups. Dr. Hutchison has published numerous articles, authored textbook chapters on canine reproduction, and produced a DVD on dog breeding which is available at Animal Clinic Northview. DR. BRIAN E. GREENFIELD Education 1998 The Ohio State University DVM (cum laude) 1993 University of Michigan B.A. Special Interest(s) Canine & Feline Reproductive Systems, Breeding Management In addition to general practice, Dr. Greenfield spends much of his time addressing the medical and surgical needs of professional breeders and performance dogs. These needs include genetic clearance testing such as OFA and Penn Hip, hormonal testing, manipulation, reproductive management, and an understanding of the particular needs of individual breeds. Dr. Greenfield was recently published as a contributor to a national study on canine lymphoma and will be participating in future studies of cancer in dogs. He has also published "Progesterone Testing - A Successful Breeder's Best Friend" in the Labrador Retriever Club Yearbook.

Sorry about that Phil didn't mean not to answer you back. I actually tend not to come back into a thread after my point has been made.... Again sorry about your litter as well, its always awful to have happen. You are also correct I was not explained how the litter was lost, but either way-Hope the puppy you do have has thrived. Take care-j

[quote1239295190=EsqCaucasians] Random vet? Surprised you don't know him. Dr. Greenfield, Animal Clinic Northview, is collegue of internationally known reproductive veterinarian Dr. Robert Hutchinson. [/quote1239295190] Perhaps I met him at a SFT symposium but there are hundreds of vets in SFT and thousands involved in small animal repro. Many of those vets even publish in various small time publications, I will admit some of those small time articles can be informative and entertaining but in the end I take them with a grain of salt. lynnicks don't get me wrong some of my best insight comes from rancher friends and fellow breeders although in the end I must fall back on evidence based medicine for the majority of my knowledge. Also, EsqCaucasians, you are right, gestation is 63 days post ovulation (ovulation is ~2 days post LH surge); however most of these averages come from historical studies in lab beagles and usually include +/-2 days. Recent research, (Eilts BE, Davidson AP, Hosgood G, Paccamonti DL, Baker DG. Factors affecting gestation duration in the bitch. Theriogenology. 2005 Jul 15;64(2):242-51. ) shows differences in gestation times in larger breeds (goldens, labs, GSD.) Although there is no research in giant breeds it would be interesting to see if variation from the average appears there as well. Does make you think about the timing in scheduled c-sections though. Robin

For anyone interested, successful breeding and whelping videos availalbe from a renowned expert on the topic, Dr. Robert Hutchinson They hyperlink before doesnt seem to open a new page, so cut and paste into browser: [link=hyperlink url]http://www.northviewvet.com/site/view/102098_DrHutchisonsDVDs.pml [/link] DR. ROBERT V. HUTCHISON Education 1972 The Ohio State University DVM Canine Reproduction, Infertility, Pediatric Care Dr. Hutchison is the director of the International Canine Semen Bank - Ohio, a canine frozen semen center which he started in 1984. He speaks nationally and internationally to veterinary and breeder groups. Dr. Hutchison has published numerous articles, authored textbook chapters on canine reproduction, and produced a DVD on dog breeding which is available at Animal Clinic Northview.