[quote=4myneo]We have seen these pics before, no need for them again.[/quote] The pictures were posted in reply not to your post, but to Brad's post...which apparently was deleted. [blockquote]OK- So if MOST OEM's are not suitable for the work you are doing how did you go about finding "good" ones? What separates them from any others on the street? When I think OEM, I think big oafy, friendly "gentle giant" like most people. How are yours different?[/blockquote] I look for the traits I desire. If the dog doesn't have these traits, I won't use it. I won't use a dog just because it is available. Over the years, I have found the EM to generally have decent stable temperaments...some confident and some not...but I have also found many to lack in ability, stamina, endurance, determination, and agility,...and general drive and soundness. So dogs like that wouldn't do. For my program, I would only use dogs that were the total package. Very few dogs (percentage wise) in the world are total package...but when I found good EM I found them to do everything any other true mastiff could do and do it better. I needed dogs with SOLID temperament, supreme power, good drives/determination, stable mind, sound structure, good recovery when physically tested, and enough size to be a great criminal deterant. Let me comment here about "deterants." It is my opinion a 150# mastiff that can move in drive is a greater deterant than is a 200# dog laying down under the shade tree...so although I wanted some size, I wouldn't sacrifice any needed component to get it. And even though it was a Mastiff, I required a decent amount of abilities in the forms of ability, stamina, and agility. Most EM breeders over look these things in pursuit of size, but it is my opinion that size alone doesn't make an EM a true EM. Just as "typiness" doesn't make a Neapolitan a true Neapolitan. But, when I have found good ones...best compared to best, I have found the EM have by far be THE ABSOLUTE BEST candidates generally speaking (in what they bring and also in what they have proven to produce) when crossed with game type APBT for ANY serious bandog type project...producing superior guard dogs that are also family companions. Other programs have of course had good success with other choices such as the Neapolitan and I am not dening the success of such programs...but I can honestly say I really believe...when it comes best to best...the EM simply seems to not only be more capable, but also seems to be able to produce better as well. For the record, (although I imagine you know this already...but mentioning it for the uninformed reader) a capable dog can also be friendly in appropriate situations. I like a dog that friendly greets guests when I am home and inviting...and one that can safely greet strangers when I am in public. I don't want a trigger happy dog. But, what I do want is a mastiff that when needed is both physically overwhelming and mentally determined...as in works in DRIVE...and does so while maintaining a clear head to know friend from foe. What I look for in a mastiff is the total package. IMO, both the EM and the Neapolitan Mastiffs could be vastly improved if breeders would focus on functional forms of the breed by targetting health, drives, temperament, and ability...and measuring stabilty and soundness in these types of measures rather than fucussing on the cosmetic aspects written into show standards. I think show dogs would be generally better off if they simply stated "typiness shouldn't be overdone to a point that ability becomes impaired." I do think there are Neapolitans out there with decent drives, but generally I find them to be less stable/clear headed and more likely to redirect under severe stress. I also find the Neapolitan to often suffer from seperation anxiouty...as well as being too often physically handicapped when "over typey." Of course, many EM seem physically handicapped as well. For the record, when I say "handicapped" I don't mean cripple, just just ability reduced due to poor breeding...and being overdone, overly loose or overly typey. I want a dog...even a big dog...to move easily and with energy...and not like a big clumbsy lumbering heavy dog. How are mine different...well...I don't have an emotional connection to English Mastiffs or any mastiffs. They are just too messy for me. So, unless a mastiff was near perfect I simply wasn't interested. BTW, on that note...if you know someone looking for a good EM, I have considered selling my male EM...and would be interested in letting him go to a quality EM breeder should you know someone working to improve the EM and could use a sound, capable, good tempered EM....as I am pretty much done with early generation breedings.