Bandogs & Mastini

[quote=4myneo]We have seen these pics before, no need for them again.[/quote] The pictures were posted in reply not to your post, but to Brad's post...which apparently was deleted. [blockquote]OK- So if MOST OEM's are not suitable for the work you are doing how did you go about finding "good" ones? What separates them from any others on the street? When I think OEM, I think big oafy, friendly "gentle giant" like most people. How are yours different?[/blockquote] I look for the traits I desire. If the dog doesn't have these traits, I won't use it. I won't use a dog just because it is available. Over the years, I have found the EM to generally have decent stable temperaments...some confident and some not...but I have also found many to lack in ability, stamina, endurance, determination, and agility,...and general drive and soundness. So dogs like that wouldn't do. For my program, I would only use dogs that were the total package. Very few dogs (percentage wise) in the world are total package...but when I found good EM I found them to do everything any other true mastiff could do and do it better. I needed dogs with SOLID temperament, supreme power, good drives/determination, stable mind, sound structure, good recovery when physically tested, and enough size to be a great criminal deterant. Let me comment here about "deterants." It is my opinion a 150# mastiff that can move in drive is a greater deterant than is a 200# dog laying down under the shade tree...so although I wanted some size, I wouldn't sacrifice any needed component to get it. And even though it was a Mastiff, I required a decent amount of abilities in the forms of ability, stamina, and agility. Most EM breeders over look these things in pursuit of size, but it is my opinion that size alone doesn't make an EM a true EM. Just as "typiness" doesn't make a Neapolitan a true Neapolitan. But, when I have found good ones...best compared to best, I have found the EM have by far be THE ABSOLUTE BEST candidates generally speaking (in what they bring and also in what they have proven to produce) when crossed with game type APBT for ANY serious bandog type project...producing superior guard dogs that are also family companions. Other programs have of course had good success with other choices such as the Neapolitan and I am not dening the success of such programs...but I can honestly say I really believe...when it comes best to best...the EM simply seems to not only be more capable, but also seems to be able to produce better as well. For the record, (although I imagine you know this already...but mentioning it for the uninformed reader) a capable dog can also be friendly in appropriate situations. I like a dog that friendly greets guests when I am home and inviting...and one that can safely greet strangers when I am in public. I don't want a trigger happy dog. But, what I do want is a mastiff that when needed is both physically overwhelming and mentally determined...as in works in DRIVE...and does so while maintaining a clear head to know friend from foe. What I look for in a mastiff is the total package. IMO, both the EM and the Neapolitan Mastiffs could be vastly improved if breeders would focus on functional forms of the breed by targetting health, drives, temperament, and ability...and measuring stabilty and soundness in these types of measures rather than fucussing on the cosmetic aspects written into show standards. I think show dogs would be generally better off if they simply stated "typiness shouldn't be overdone to a point that ability becomes impaired." I do think there are Neapolitans out there with decent drives, but generally I find them to be less stable/clear headed and more likely to redirect under severe stress. I also find the Neapolitan to often suffer from seperation anxiouty...as well as being too often physically handicapped when "over typey." Of course, many EM seem physically handicapped as well. For the record, when I say "handicapped" I don't mean cripple, just just ability reduced due to poor breeding...and being overdone, overly loose or overly typey. I want a dog...even a big dog...to move easily and with energy...and not like a big clumbsy lumbering heavy dog. How are mine different...well...I don't have an emotional connection to English Mastiffs or any mastiffs. They are just too messy for me. So, unless a mastiff was near perfect I simply wasn't interested. BTW, on that note...if you know someone looking for a good EM, I have considered selling my male EM...and would be interested in letting him go to a quality EM breeder should you know someone working to improve the EM and could use a sound, capable, good tempered EM....as I am pretty much done with early generation breedings.

[quote=EsqCaucasians"][quote="4myneo]We have seen these pics before, no need for them again. OK- So if MOST OEM's are not suitable for the work you are doing how did you go about finding "good" ones? What separates them from any others on the street? When I think OEM, I think big oafy, friendly "gentle giant" like most people. How are yours different?[/quote] I knew of one, "Ox", owned by a mastiff breeder who also boarded my dogs years ago. "Ox" wasnt one of the breeding dogs though (those were lovely oafs), "Ox" was a big, brindle, active monster of a dog, scary aggressive at the fence and I don't scare easily. I think he was a rescue dog. The owner is up in years now but I'll see if I can find out where he came from. Knowing what I know now, his type dog would be in demand.[/quote] I wonder if that dog was heavily bred down from Runningbear's stock.

In one sentence you say I am right and another you say I am dense. For the record, I live in Mississippi, but I am not FROM Mississippi. I was born in TX, but throughout my 38 years...I was raised in Illinois for 27 years, also lived in New York and Ohio...and travelled to 40 states in the US...and I have been to the opposite side of the world (Australia). I have spent most of my life learning and developing my knowledge around dogs and wildlife. And, you are right about most EM...but again, I didn't use "most." I used the best I could find. And, when comparing best to best...I found the EM to be the one on top. It isn't about "putting down other breeds" but acknowledging the source of success. Although rare, good EM have been a primary source of this success. No one knows everything...but...Been there, done that. I am always willing to learn, but I will base my opinions off my knowledge and experience before internet "claims or discussion" but never show dogs of real abilities. Don't tell me how great the Neapolitan is. Just show me. Simple enough...as I have no loyalty to any mastiff type. I only have loyalty to use the best I can find. Period.

I am not a expert,but I think and I see that Lee is One of the greatest Bandog (Swinford)breeders .He is breeding quality and dogs is his passion.He Knows about he is talking.

Lee , be careful Nikki's DEAD GAME :lol: :lol: & her Mastini are VERY BALANCED...Her & Star have very good dogs... :wink: :wink:

Nikki, of course those that are dedicated to research the Neapolitan breed can find examples that are better than most. But, I didn't just test "typical" or "typey" Neapolitans. I worked some good examples of the breed and have found a few to offer potential...but simply for MY GOALS the EM did everything the Neapolitan did and did it better (more power, more confidence, more drive, more soundness, better stamina, better agility, more stability, less seperation anxioty, and more size). I do like the short hair of the Neapolitan though. I appreciate that the Neapolitan breeders are beginning to take a stand against overdone Neapolitans...and are working to improve the breed. IMO that is GREAT! However, my findings of the EM being a better choice for our goals isn't solely based on an assumption that all Neapolitans are overdone. I was never interested in working the overdone ones that had problems walking or seeing. The Neapolitans we worked did not appear that way. I also know other working dog enthusists that I trust that also have worked Neapolitans and have done so over a multitude of decades...and generally speaking their findings were in line with my own which does reinforce my observations. I am not saying all Neapolitans are bad dogs. In fact, even though I think they could be greatly improved I do find the breed interesting and see potential within them...even though I found the EMs to be better for our goals. I found many Neapolitans to lack in the stability department. Some lacked confidence. Many bitches were very small as well. And a friend warned me of their small teeth which I found odd...until I began looking and although many had good teeth, many indeed did have suprisiingly small teeth. And even the ones that were not overdone still lacked the power, agility, and drive I AM LOOKING FOR. Some people are happy with them. That is great. I at this time am not interested enough to put them on an equal field of that as a good EM. Because when I compared best to best...the EM's simply faired better. Now as far as poor EM specimens go...absolutly they do exist...but that is not what I am talking about here. I am only talking about best to best. On that level, the EMs IMO are simply at a superior playing field. I am curious though...what Neapolitan breeder out there in YOUR opinion is producing the best Neapolitans out there for someone interested in a "working class Mastini?"

Nak, I don't care for type. Only ability. [quote=natimastino]Lee, now we are getting somewhere! My suspicions were absolutley correct! I knew without a shadow of a doubt you did not have real Mastino in front of you. If it looks like a Corso..IT IS! I too have seen the stumped and brittle teeth you were working with and its classical backyard neo breeding symptons. Im sure this guy was passing them off as 'working' Neo's LMAO!! Just plain bad genetics and just another person with absolutley zero knowledge of a foreign breed. You in reality compared a badly bred Cane Corso/bandogge with OEM and I dont doubt at all the OEM was a better performer overall.[/quote] Natimastino, WOW...you are fast on the computer. I went back and edited my phrasing on that right after I posted it because I was trying to basically paint the idea the Neapolitans we typically took more seriously in testing by looking at the hardest were the ones that were less "typey" and not so overdone...and while attempting to paint that picture I typed the CC comment. Then after submitting it, I thought...well that really isn't right...as it wasn't that they were CC...they just simply weren't "typey" overdone Neapolitans. This was because the ones that were overdone...were basically handicapped and not able physically. The ones we tested were better specimens physically than the extreme typiness ones, but they really were not CC/bandogge dogs. Perhaps a few, but very few. The majority truely were pure Neapolitans. I am certain of it. Some good, some not so good. Some well bred, some not so well bred. Some CC crosses perhaps, but not all of them. By the time I made my edit...and what do you know. You already replied. LOL. Oh well. I tried. After viewing your post, I considered going back to put it back the way it is written in your reply...but na...I will leave it as is as the way it is now is really a better discription of what I was trying to say. (For the record, I also want to state that Natimastio did NOT change my words...my original post was exactly as she quoted me). It really just comes down to this. We did test Neapolitans. Several. Not hundreds, but dozens. I have seen potential, but I have found good EM to offer more for my needs. I am however always willing to work some more Neapolitans and IF you know of someone producing quality examples...by all means let me know. I can be opinionated, but I am also open minded. I may be hard to convence by words on a messageboard...but show me the dogs working...and I will accept it.

[quote=NAK101]What people simply do not understand in rallying against "overdone" dog is that those "overdone" dogs are absolutley needed for breeding. Without those dogs in a breeding program, the dogs being produced will dry out very quickly and in no type, you will end up with long legged, Cane Corso type Neo's. And those are useless. Overdone has to be bred to typey. Then typey to typey then overdone to typey and so forth. The alternative is dry dogs with zero type.[/quote] Brad, I am sorry for putting you on the spot here again, but I have to ask a simple question again. Have you ever bred dogs? Any? If so, have you ever bred any functional working class dogs? You do realize, these breeds are listed as "working" class breeds right?

It is important x-rays the hips of the Neapolitan.It is it usual among all the breeders?

Brad, did you breed Komondor for work or for show? Did you test their functionality for their original purpose or did you simply breed them to fit the cosmetics of a written standard?

The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.

The member who posted this text was banned - and the post is depricated.

[quote=NAK101]I don't own any sheep. My dogs where Hungarian imports out of parents that worked sheep during the week and where show and made show champions as well. All around dogs, as they should be.[/quote] Just because a dog came from dogs that worked sheep doesn't mean yours were capable. To know this, you would have to test them. Why can't you just give a straight answer when I ask a simple question and say...you have never worked a "working" breed...and wouldn't know where to begin...as you only breed for cosmetics. How do I know this? Well, you said you bred them but didn't work them. So...what else is there to say. And you haven't worked your Akitas either. Heck, I hunted with my American Akitas on a few occations, and I didn't even have an interest in breeding them. [quote=natimastino]LMAO Lee, you called me SHE?? Dude Im a dude and a big and manly one at that. Lee I dont think you know what a 'pure' Mastino is at all. Why are you certain of it that some where pure? Not many people have any idea. Put it this way; when you refer to the American Pitbull Terrier/southern pitbulldogge what dogs come to mind as being a 'pure', true to the core essence of the breed?? Hmmm... maybe Plumbers Alligator, Chinaman, or perhaps the Sorrel dogs you are fond of. You're not expecting me to believe your buddy had real, unadulterated, old world Italian blood mastiffs on his hands in Mississippi?? (A state which I love, BTW)[/quote] Sorry for the identity mistake. I saw "Nati" and assumed Natilie. My bad. As far as knowing what a pure Mastini is...well...come on dude. I have been around the block a little, and am very familiar with what a pure Neapolitan is. And, just to enlighten you...the world is no longer that big. Anything is available to those willing to pay for it. Tosa is considerably rarer than Neapolitans...and we have evaluated several of them (junk and REAL ones) as well...not just the one Tosa I imported. But...on another note, let me ask YOU a question...since you are here to "defend" the Neapolitan (which I am not attacking in this post by saying I prefer the EM as I find them more capable...but just offering my experience and education)...like I said...but, let me ask you a question. Let's say for arguement's sake that you could find a Neapolitan with good temperament, drives, stabilty, and even decent agility and...heck, I will be generous and give your perfect example stamina too (even though I have found these traits to generally be lacking by comparison to quality EM)...do you think your example of Neapolitan would be as powerful as a quality EM?

[quote="natimastino"] No, youre very wrong, not everything is available for money in this world and especially fittest examples of Mastino. The owner of a famous Ponzano stud dog was offered I believe $200,000 (in the 1980's) and respectfully declined. My friend whom re-introduced me to Mastino doesn't even sell many puppies and they are absolutley going to people who he personally knows on a very intimate basis and if he doesnt find the absolutely perfect fit, he is glad to take all the pups if necessarry for he is jealous and guarded like most old Mastino breeders who keep the real thing. And dont think you're going to be getting a pick of the litter or anything. Take what is gifted for a fair price or get the f'out. Its about the dogs, always. You wont find the old timers posting on MD or guiding you to there websites and pimping there dogs out like a traded commidity. This i learned to be perfectly true after i visited to Italy 4 times now and each time i met a new breeder and new dogs that are owned by people who have absolutely no interest in the internet or selling for huge money. Some will ask larger prices but at the same time cos they know its worth it in their opinion and i know 1 breeder who declined 10,000 Euro for a female and was offered this by 4 breeders that i know off possibly more and later sold her for 1/2 that price to someone else. He was told of the site II Colosseo and his son asked for the address but still has never once came on to it and has no interest in such things. Seeming more than happy to continue as he has done the past 50 years. He introduced me to 4 other breeders with incredible mastini again that you have never seen the like of on any website and some actually stated not to publish photos to the internet. probably as other italians would recognise them and their homes and then they would get unwanted calls etc. I saw an incredible male that a very high profile breeder in Napoli offered 14,000 euro for 2 years ago and it was not for sale to them. Due to their love for the money and not for the dogs themselves. In Italy it is not uncommon for a breeder to gift a mastino to a fellow breeder and friend but i know of 1 breeder who sells excellent and healthy mastini for a much lower price than the others and is more happy that you are satisfied than for the $$$. In fact this breeder even made a gift of a puppy to a person in the USA and also to another person outside of Italy because he said he knew they could not afford to pay but they had passion. Also his late friend sold a pup to a lady and he asked a price. The lady came and collected and paid the fee. They then went for a meal and spent some time together as is common practice in Italy ( Not just pay and run) and he felt her passion and before she left that evening when he took her to the airport returned her 1/2 her money. As for if an EM is stronger than my ideal Mastino....I know there are some strong EM's out there but I will bet the farm on a select few Mastino I know of as being some of the most powerful dogs to walk the earth, IMO. Im 6'5' 280 or so and have played football my whole life (almost played pro) and have Greco-Roman wrestled and have done various other weight training and physically demanding activities that require brute strength. No man can match the raw power of a serious Mastino when he is locked in on something. Downright frightening to be honest and you begin to understand why the real Mastino is not popular or available to any idiot.[/quote] Again i would agree with this also from my own personal experiences and those of some close no BS friends. One only has to look at the gallery here and see some of the photos of anacronismo Tyson and flamina and kleopatra and thast the way those 3 dogs are for 2 hrs every morning and for an hour in the evening.

[quote=NAK101]Nope, I never played games of tug and took pictures of it with my Komondorok, never had the desire to either. You got me there Harold.[/quote] And you never worked sheep with your dog either. In other words, you were willing to change what other people created. According to your previous posts, you shouldn't have any right to distroy what others created. ___________________ Nati, LOL. You think the best Mastini are as actually as capable as the best EMs. ROTFLMAO! Keep dreaming. I hope you don't loose that farm. Some people I guess just like to keep their head in the sand. Of course some dogs are never for sell, but that doesn't mean equal quality isn't available. Here is a news flash. Litermates to nearly any line is available anywhere. Sure we all have our favorites and we all have dogs that are not for sell...but anyone who has bred dogs for any length of time knows picking a the "best pup" out of a litter at 8 weeks doesn't always prove to be the best adult. I have kept entire litters before because of this, still that blood has become available to the public due to repeat breedings, second generatoin offspring, etc. And, some times "top notch" offspring are sold not only for money, but because of respected relationships with those who have proven to be serious breeders in other countries...as acknowledging and respecting their work. But, any more time on this subject is likely a waste. The difference between you and me is you are "defending" the Neapolitan. So be it. I am not defending any breed. I am just open to accept the facts as they are. If a Neapolitan was even close to superior, I would use them...but the truth is I don't use them because not only are the NOT superior, but they are indeed inferior performers...and I accept things for where they lay. And if you think my experience is off MD, well...that even further illustrates your delusion. My dogs speak for themselves andyou are welcome to visit. See, I am not subjective and biased in my research. I am objective and open minded...that way I can accept the truth and use the best so it can serve me well. I have nothing to prove. Instead, I have a goal to accomplish...and I would say I am living that goal.

Senor, you have been watching too many Mississippi Burning type of movies. Nak, first, get your quotes right. Your box is around the wrong material (your words and not mine). Second,...and read this carefully to see if you can be enlightened... [blockquote]Nope, I was not CROSSBREEDING huge differance and you damned well know it.[/blockquote] There is a huge difference. Crossbreeding and ADMITTING IT has no effect on any pure breed...because the honest breeder is not putting his dogs back into the "pure" population. So, it only effects the breeders product and the the "pure" breed's gene pool. HOWEVER, to breed "working" dogs without working them DOES RUIN the breed...because then the genes from non working dogs are bred back into the "working breed's" genes...resulting is lesser capable dogs for future generations. You are distroying their purpose. Again, it is better for everyone to think you are a fool than it is for you to open your mouth and prove it. You should just admit you know nothing of working dogs. Do you honestly think show bred huskies can pull a sled as well as dogs used daily in Alaska for such tasks? Which dog is the REAL husky?...for the true husky was bred to work, therefore, the real huskies today are NOT the ones running in a circle with their handlers that prance around a ring in sandles and flower dresss. No, they are only shadows of what once was....claiming great fame from their working ancestors; meanwhile, the true huskies have handlers dressed for the ice cold and working lifestyles...while they eat musher's meat in the frozen land.

[quote=NAK101]Harold, you never saw my Komondorok, so you have ZERO basis on wich to form an opinion. Would my Camilla have guarded sheep? Hell if I know, BUT she did keep me and my new baby safe while living in downtown Detroit so to me she passed any "real life" test. I loved that bich, I still think about her every day. Her passing has left a huge whole in my heart that will never be filled. R.I.P. Tzimisce Barom Kelet. Secondly, I am done with this thread.[/quote] You admitted you never worked your dogs, then get upset when I say you bred a non-working dog. Guess what Brad, they were not worked...so therefore they were non-working specimens. Could they have? Would they have" How would you know? How would I know? However, they were not, so I followed up with a truthful fact. You don't like it, but it is fact. Look at my post above about the husky. The comment that breeding non-working dogs is the way working breeds are distroyed. The statement makes so much sense, that even in your lack of ability to reason you still see the logic in that statement. Now as far as you saying I have no basis of this reason...well, actually I do. You said you didn't work her. In fact, you now even state you had a "hell if I know" opinion of if she was a even capable of being working dog or not. That means she was a non-working dog. Does it mean she couldn't work? Well, "hell if I know" (LOL). Maybe she could and maybe she couldn't...but regardless of "could of" or "should of" the fact is she wasn't worked...and therefore is a non-working specimen. To MAINTAIN a working breed, one has to test the stock to remove non-working specimens. That is the ONLY WAY to preserve working breeds. You didn't do this...yet you bred him. Therefore, you promoted (again) the idea of ruining someone else's creation. To tell others not to ruin the work of others (even when they are not), but then to go out and do exactly that yourself is hypocracy. BTW, living with someone isn't the same a protecting someone. To know if a dog is capable of guard work, one has to test for that too. And, Of course you are done with this thread...you were just intellectually spanked. Think next time before you speak. Or...better yet, get a better opinion...one that is factually based.

I have spent a huge portion of my life time learning about dogs...including professionally. Apparently you think their are only one or two people that own real Neapolitans in the world. LOL. :roll: Words are cheap. Everyone has big claims, but few actually are willing to put it on the line with actual testing. And then when the dogs fall short too many people make excuses or go about as if it doesn't matter as they were breeding show dogs anyway. Well...look, honestly...actions speak louder than words. Funny how some people think they or only people they know have real Neapolitans. The truth is this...some are decent, some even good...but most are not. And an additional truth is if you find a good one and compare it to a good EM...the EM will leave the Neapolitan behind when it comes to performance. Disagree with me. That is fine. Like I said..."been there, done that."

Your post is obviously sarcastic, as minutes ago you were the Neapolitan expert and no one else could have possibly seen real specimens of the breed. Perhaps you need a cup of coffee to wake up. After all, there is only 1 or 2 breeders in the world that have real Neapolitans. You know those breeders and no one else does. After all, as long as you live in fantacy land of the internet, why should you prove anything when you can ask everyone else to. In other words... :roll: :roll: :roll:

[quote=senor]Do you honestly believe your Associates' Neapolitan Mastiffs are...[/quote] I don't have "associates" in the Neapolitan community. I simply take the opertunity to get in front of them when I can and work them. I am not interested in disrespecting anyone just because I personally don't prefer the breed, so I am not going to mention anyone's name here...where you can hold it against them. Many show breeders simply don't want Neapolitans worked...but to me it isn't about friends, enemies, associates, or "dis-associates." It is all about the dogs. That's all. Not people. The dogs. I have seen some piss poor Neapolitans. I have seen some good representatives of the breed as well; however, I find the EM simply superior in every way. And...if that makes you feel pissy or offended, well that is your problem. Just prove me otherwise. If you think I haven't seen good Neapolitans...Don't tell me. Show me.

Not ever mastiff is good, but if you look around you can find EM that are capable of doing decent agility. In fact, just last week someone posted a video of an EM doing some agility. This is NOT my dog and I have nothing to do with this dog, but I do like it and I would love to see a solid Neapolitan do this. Of course, this isn't a nerve test or a temperament test...but it is a starting point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O-RyC7MxUo