I'm starting to question if these dogs have the same foundation, and simply differentiate from one another due to differing degrees of western mastiff influence (to put it very simply, each having other influences as well). I expect strong opposition to this, to be honest wolf actually planted the idea in my head in a PM, and then I also think it correlates with the dog genome, that shows the kuvasz (clearly closely related to the akbash), isn't closely related to mastiffs at all. Maybe LGDs in general aren't, or weren't, until they were influenced by crosses to mastiffs. These crossings producing most of the LGDs around today that impress people the most, but not necessarily the ones that work as LGDs with the most success (frankly still seems to be kuvasz/akbash/pyranees/maremma/types followed by anatolians and shars, which perhaps have only a smidgen of mastiff influence). I always thought LGDs were somewhat mastiff like due to sharing a common ancestor with the mastiff, but I'm really starting to rethink this. I think the real LGDs are no more mastiff like than golden retrievers, and considerably less closely related to mastiffs than golden retreivers (the last point is actually a fact). Those that are mastiff like, are mastiff like because people have crossed them with mastiffs, and often to produce fighting dogs or personal guardians/pets rather than livestock guardians. Thoughts?