[quote="Murray Pierce"]Hello, My name is Murray Pierce. I generally don’t post on any forum, but I saw this as an opportunity to add to this discussion. In the late 80’s, early 90’s I had the pleasure of corresponding through translator with Genchiki Sudo, perhaps the most well known Tosa fancier outside of Japan. Over the years we went through most of the pages of Zen'Nihon Tosainu Zenshu Taikan, a rare work on the Tosa. I credit him with patience and a willingness to educate me on his experience with the Tosa. (Someone posted a nice shot of Mr. Sudo with one of his dogs whose name escapes me now) I like to think of myself as someone who has a desire to uncover all the aspects of owning a particular breed. With that, history of your chosen breed adds to your knowledge base. I honestly don’t know if that makes me a “historian” however, I don’t like the pejorative tone the word “historian” has taken in these series of post, but, that may just be me. Below are a couple of bulleted points which may (or may not) add to some points in the discussion: •Dog against dog combat in Japan predates the development of the Tosa. Matching one dog against another is a documented practice in Japan with over a thousand year history (The Taiheki or Chronicle of Great Peace circa 1219-1333; The Kojiki; and the Nihon Shoki serving as examples of ancient text referencing canine combat). As to rules, there is little in print that references any degree of uniform practice which every village that participated in this activity followed. One document records a match which lasted 3 days with thousands of dogs released into an arena with the champion emerging days later. Modern day Tosa combat rules were developed primarily by the Yakuza in their early involvement with the dogs during the 1920’s. (Even today the Yakuza remain “keen” on “regulating” any questionable activity) •The incipient developmental period of the Tosa (roughly 1868-1912) bore witness to many changes in the morphology and temperament of the Tosa. It’s important to remember that the Tosa of early days is best seen as a “work in progress” and to a very large extent, equivalent to the modern day usage of the term “bandogge”. In regards to the earliest developmental information, research revealed initially (late 19th century), the English Pointer, English Setters, a dog called the Shishisaki or "Kochi Dog" which was yet another variant on the Akita dog, and the Akita dog as the most used indigenous Japanese dog later crossed with Western style bull breeds used to produce the Tosa. •Later, as the dog gained in popularity, and as they moved across the country, a number of the currently recognized breeds (including many “bulldog” or molosser types e.g., Bordeaux, Great Dane, Mastiff) added to the Tosa to improve the desired function of the breed. The early Tosa dog lost matches to more than just bulldog-types. •A point of clarification from one of the post in this series; In actuality, the name Tosa is a prefecture in Japan once known as “Kochi”. Shikoku is the Island of which Tosa prefecture is a district. The “Shikoku” dog is distinct from the Tosa dog. •As to the modern-day Tosa not being competitive with the modern-day APBT, the truth be told, there have to date been very few, if any, keep-developed, fully conditioned, campaigned and championed Japanese bred and born Tosas have ever stepped on US soil. There however have been competitively campaigned APBT shipped to Japan. I will not comment on the outcome on this forum. Today, many of the dogs designated as “Tosas” in the states are probably better identified as “Japanese Mastiffs”, a distinction I make between the dogs residing and working in Japan and those existing outside their country of origin. So when folks talk about “gameness” relative to the Tosa, very few if any, are speaking from first hand knowledge of the capabilities of these dogs as a significantly limited number of the representatives of the breed outside Japan are only a shadow of their homeland bred and campaigned relatives. •At the end of WWII (1945), Helen Keller popularizing the indigenous Akita notwithstanding, many American servicemen brought back with them “Akita” type dogs from Japan. It’s my sense that many of these dogs were primarily, a dog designated as the “Shin Akita”. The Shin Akita was predominately a mixture of the indigenous Akita dog and the newly developing Tosa. Understand that during this period, the Japanese dog enthusiast were not averse to trying any “formula” to improve upon their dogs combat ability. This admixture accounts in part for the variant in size between the current Japanese style Akita and its American cousin. Perhaps contributing to this mass exodus was the fact that many nationalistically inclined Japanese saw the addition of "Tosa" blood to the Akita as a mark of unpatriotic concern (remember, this is Ante Bellum Japan we’re speaking of) as the indigenous Akita was such a revered and celebrated breed attaining the status of the “national breed of Japan”. With this in mind, they were more than willing to part with their bastard cousins in the form of the Shin Akita. •As to the Tosa being exported during this time, (circa 1945) in my opinion it is highly unlikely that any significant number of these dogs found their way to US shores until later. It is equally important to note that after the war, there were very few Tosas in existence (some sources state no more than a handful). Much of the existing breeding stock had been sent to the Northern Regions, particularly, the Hokkaido area, where there was less war-related activity. •I too have second and in one instance, third hand knowledge of folks that participated in the Swinford project. No one has ever stated to me that Swinford used the Tosa (in point of fact, I never asked) in his project. Given my personal conversations with these individuals I really can’t say with certainty if he did or did not. In the end, beyond historical import, the point is trivial in that there was to my knowledge, no consistent usage, if any, of Tosa blood in the project. Not unlike the Japanese at the time of the creation of the Tosa, those involved with the Swinford project, although they had a different goal, were not adverse in experimenting with various breeds to achieve their desired ends. •As to the Chinese Tosa, I have heard reference to them and have seen pictures of them. I do not know of their date of entry into China. Like Korea, the Japanese occupied sections of China. As they brought Tosa dogs to Korea, they may have brought them to China also. •Finally, as to the issue of the Tosa as a personal protection dog; I am not aware of anyone in Japan involved in any of the Associations who promotes the Tosa as a personal protection dog. Regards, Murray Pierce[/quote] Thank you Mr.Pierce. You pretty much summed up the same things I have stated. The only difference being that the Shikoku Inu we knew today where called Tosa-Ken by some regionals. There was a Tosa-Ken Hyzokai that had a clear shillouette of a Shikoku in it's logo. If I could find that picture I will post it. Again, thank you for your clear and concise post. It is much appreciated.