Frank, I took him to 2 vet's ( I want 2 doc's to look at me too), both said a pretty good size tear, I got some pain medcine from vet and he's chilling taking good care of himself..in fact that worried me quite a bit he was listless and off his feed, but blood work showed no lyme or anything out of whack besides knee, vet told me sometimes they get that way sometime when a dog has a high tolerence for pain and they deal with pain by sleeping and resting. I am gonna try and get hin to University of Penn for final look see and probably surgery, I am torn between there famous doc's and the doctor both vets so far have suggested.