Yes I read that before, Gary. Its comical to read this nonsense when the guy admittedly says this, " [Note: Because I do not have access to a university library, I have been unable to check all literary references to the Molossus dog. Those that I have not been able to check include: Pollux, V, 37-1 Oppian, Cynegetica 1, 375; Plautus, Captivi 86-, Seneca, Phaedra 33; Statius, Thebais III, 203, Silvae 11, 6, 19, Achilleis 1, 747; Martial XR, 1, 1, Claudian, Stilicho H, 215, III, 293. 1 encourage anyone with the opportunity to do so to check out these references and see if anything else germane to the topic can be found.]" 8O 8O Totally ridiculus to even try to make an intelligent arguement when you haven't read every last scrap of history and over-turned every stone. Wise people will notice this is written by a bulldog enthusiast and their is an agenda tied to it. That is why it is irrelevant.

[quote="natimastino"]Yes I read that before, Gary. Its comical to read this nonsense when the guy admittedly says this, " [Note: Because I do not have access to a university library, I have been unable to check all literary references to the Molossus dog. Those that I have not been able to check include: Pollux, V, 37-1 Oppian, Cynegetica 1, 375; Plautus, Captivi 86-, Seneca, Phaedra 33; Statius, Thebais III, 203, Silvae 11, 6, 19, Achilleis 1, 747; Martial XR, 1, 1, Claudian, Stilicho H, 215, III, 293. 1 encourage anyone with the opportunity to do so to check out these references and see if anything else germane to the topic can be found.]" 8O 8O Totally ridiculus to even try to make an intelligent arguement when you haven't read every last scrap of history and over-turned every stone. Wise people will notice this is written by a bulldog enthusiast and their is an agenda tied to it. That is why it is irrelevant.[/quote] whys it laughable nonsence? and why would a american bulldog enthusiest have more of a agenda with this issue than a neapolitian mastiff enthusiest? Honestly, people cant even agree on what made up the american pitbull terrier,if you go to each site theres a diffrent answer to the breeds in its ancestory and this is only going back 200 somewhat years. So how is one to say for sure with such scarce info and 1,000's of years seperating this info from todays enthusiest what the molossus was with absolute certinty?

[blockquote]whys it laughable nonsence? and why would a american bulldog enthusiest have more of a agenda with this issue than a neapolitian mastiff enthusiest? Honestly, people cant even agree on what made up the american pitbull terrier,if you go to each site theres a diffrent answer to the breeds in its ancestory and this is only going back 200 somewhat years. So how is one to say for sure with such scarce info and 1,000's of years seperating this info from todays enthusiest what the molossus was with absolute certinty?[/blockquote] I just told you why it can't be taken seriously. If you want to talk about the scarce information available dont you think it would be a good idea to read all of the available material and not just take things out of context from other authors books?? The guy admits to not having read over 10 scholars writings on the subject of molossers and I can name five more he failed to read either. It would be a good idea for a person who wants credibility to read all the material possible on the subject, consult other historians and then start forming a theory.

On the specific point of Molosser size, why can't a dog be very large,powerful,tall and be a runner? The Kangal is a proto-type for a large powerful LGD that can run and hunt. The Fila could be another example. Dogs along Wolfhound/Deerhound lines could be another example. Most wolfhounds are lightly built these days but that wasn't always the case, you see examples once in a while where the dog is about right height but much more massively built. I guess my point is that one can be fairly massive and still be capable of running fast although it is admittedly not common it is well within the ream of possibility. For the NBA types think of Karl Malone. If one imagines a very large Kangal type dog, instead of a Neo as the proto type then the ancient descriptions hold up. My two cents toward making sense of ancient dog lore.

I didn't even click on the link because I've recognized the title, since I had already read it before and I know it was written by Jan, for whose opinion I have very little respect, for a few reasons. While he does raise some good points in his article, it's hard to take any of it seriously since it's obvious that not enough research went into it and that Jan himself simply doesn't know enough about history itself, not to mention his lack of knowledge about dogs, breeds, types or their origins and history. The article is a waste of time at best and an entertaining read at worst.

I believe the large mastiffs of old are probably twards the 100-125 pound mark. It wouldn't make sense to feed a dog larger than that. There is nothing a 200 pound dog can do that a 100 pounder couldn't do better and more effeciently.

[quote=Dragonmark]I believe the large mastiffs of old are probably twards the 100-125 pound mark. It wouldn't make sense to feed a dog larger than that. There is nothing a 200 pound dog can do that a 100 pounder couldn't do better and more effeciently.[/quote] HERE HERE ANGEL!!! I agree whole heartedly

What's comical is that so many are quick to bash this guy without ever extensively speaking or speaking to him at all. Not to mention the fact that he has been in the dog game longer than some of you have been alive being a man in his mid 60's. In all honestty Jan isn't like most people in this politic filled dog game and is totally comfortable admitting that he may have been wrong in his opinions on certain subjects. The truth is Jan would be the first to come on here if given proper evidence contrary to what he has written and admit he was wrong. More so he would be happy just to have been corrected so that he may be further enlightened. LOL at wolf and people like him who tout that they have little respect for others all the while constantly making rude and ignorant comments to people.