Comment to 'why do dobermans seem weak?!?!?!'

    ELITE -Nice try, but it is opinions.

    [A] - Not at all. No Opinions involved at all. Science. Im afraid I can't write you a thesis on the subject with quotes each time I reply it would take a month or two.

    ELITE- Additionally I never said the first shows were created to assess the dogs working abilities. It was to evaluate the dog. It was to make sure the dog met the standard for the breed.

    [A] - What are the points looked at for evaluating a dog for breeding a working dog? It's not only conformation, its natural ability and phenotype or suitability of type, that can only be judged in the field. Sure no-one would consider using a great Dane to go to earth that would be nonsensical and anyone trying would soon come unstuck at the very first covert presented to it. Surely yes conformation plays a part in selecting the dogs to breed with for working dogs. Shows only use conformation as a selection criteria, for winning nothing else.

    No standards came much much later. First judges just looked for the most impressive specimen amongst the bunch. The "winners" emulated in breeding. At a later stage they looked for uniformity in working dog types, rejecting anything that looked like something else.  Then absolute uniformity and closed stud books. Dog shows did this no one else??? Right. Take the Scottish terrier, it looked nothing like it does today the working Scottish terrier, it was a disparate "type", a small tenacious terrier from the general region. It was subsequently divided up into a number of separate breeds (big mistake) by the showing fraternity, isolating various types instead of embracing the variety but especially the genetic variability so critical. So now you have various breeds in closed registries, most facing extinction. Sky terrier, Cairn terrier, Scottish terrier, West highland white terrier..........were all one type called a "Scottish terrier",  tweaked and bred amongst the regions for working ability.

    ELITE - The standard was created by the breed club. The breed clubs are the ones that determined what the standards were and the purpose which include function. The rottweiler for example needed its build to navigate the region were it was originally used. It need the type of coat the handle the conditions of the terrain and thick brush. A dog that retrieves on water had coats that repel water. The original show wasn't about winning. Many today use it for winning. But that is not the origin. I specifically mentioned Schutzhund was to test the temperament. It was combined with the conformation to determine if a dog could be part of the breeding stock. Closed registries were created for record keeping. Today they are still used to maintain records and make money. Yes every breed is made up of a number of breeds to create it. The parent organization had to determine that they have reached some form of uniformity and created the standard that identified this as a breed. It works to get it accepted as a breed. Once you add any other breed to it including one of the original breeds that was used to create it it is no longe considered a purebred. It is. Mixed breed.  The reason the Donvan Pinscer is not a Doberman  is the he out crossed dogs that were not Doberman thus changing the breed and forming his own ideology and breed. It doesn't fix the Doberman . Just like you can't fix the English Bulldog.

    [A] - No not really, breed clubs weren't livestock improvement societies. Dog types evolved in the field. Used in the field to work that's how they got things like weather resistant coats, appropriate size, drive....... Not in breed clubs or dog shows, now or during the very first dog shows. Breed clubs made them one colour, one type, cooky cutter dogs for the "show ring". Original shows were all about impressing one another and the public as they are today not improving the dogs for workability. Ego pure and simple.

    There are breed clubs today however that properly function test. Yes and most of these breeds don't have closed registries.

    Here's a little revelation for you most working dogs and companion dogs never looked like they do today. A great Dane was used to hunt boars, its a boerhound it looked nothing like the over sized useless shivering prancing mutt in the show ring with heavy flews, dysplasia and eyelid ectropion and a pelvis with dripping vagina tipped to its stomach. No it was a tight muscular moderate to large sized functional dog.  Who turned it into the useless mutt found in the show ring today if not the show ring??? A boerhound is a dog capable of outrunning, tackling and holding wild pigs end of story. Its not a uniform cookie cutter creature prancing in the show ring, strictly divided into there genetic colour variants on the edge of genetic poverty. Thats not a Great Dane thats a show invention, an abomination. 

    Same with the show Doberman. Its not a Doberman.

    A Doberman is not a Doberman just for the sake of being a Doberman, it was invented with the intension to work. If it can't its not a Doberman but a show dog variant. 

    You can certainly fix the English bulldog. They can barely breath, walk or function as dogs. They can't even whelp naturally ,even mate naturally anymore. Outcrossing to make them more moderate and functional they would still be English bulldogs to anyone who cared to call them English bulldogs. English Bulldogs have one of the worst inbreeding coefficients of any breed alive today, meaning they will surely go extinct, die out from genetic impoverishment unless outcrossing is introduced. Only show breeders won't because they think like you. They would rather have a dead show variant of the English Bulldog than a functional healthy alive breed of the same.

    ELITE - What makes a dog a show dog or working dog. It is the owner that decides if they are going to show a dog or work a dog or do both. Many dog owners today do not believe that the dog should do what they were originally bred to do. These owners never stimulate their dogs natural instinct to hunt, protect, .farm utility, etc.  

    [A] - No its not the owner who decides. Its the breeder that does, over successive generations of breeding. Try giving a sheep farmer a show bred border collie pup and see how that turns out. There is a fraction of a chance it might turn out but all the "nurturing" in the world wont make it so. "Nature" is a a very big part of a working dog, you can only breed that by selecting over generations the best working pups. 

    You should read the scientific journal "Canine Genetics + Epidemiology" (CGE). They publish scientific papers, peer reviewed papers, in case you think it's "just opinions". They Published a very good paper on just this subject using Australian cattle dogs. How show breeding literally "genetically" alters the working abilities of dog breeds. They have extensive lay summaries so non-scientists can capture key messages from the research.

    So you see if a breed is already "genetically altered" by show breeders its not a true Doberman already in your books right? Even if its never been outcrossed since its conception. So outcrossing can fix that and solve some disastrous health problems along the way, turning it back into the original you so prize. Bear in mind the original looked nothing like the show dog. Any book on the history of the Doberman showing the first Dobermans will show you that.

    ELITE - i should have noted that even the Schutzhund tet is no longer used for its original purpose. It tested temperament. Basically a dog suitability to perform the job it was bred to do. But today it has become a sport. I know individuls that have dogs with Schutzhund Ii and or III that have had their homes burglarized and these highly trained dog did nothing to protect. I know a boerboel breeder that has it on his website that if you learns that you are going to train one of his pups for protection that he will not sell you a dog. They don't need training. They are natural guardians and protectors. I read a newspaper article telling of his home being burglarized. I'm not sure but I believe some of his dogs or pups were stolen too. A dog becomes a good working dog because it is taught to work. If it is imprinted early it tend o excell at it more than dog that are taught later. Sure there can be exceptions. Dogs raised to be pets only are often taught to ignore their natural instinct. The never learn their original function. Just like my presas, they have never had the opportunity to catch will cattle or wild boars. They chances of them being used for that is very slim. But thy still have a job. They still will get between a threat and my family. They will still take down a man. They still protect my property. They have show titles. But they didn't have show careers. If they didn't have the correct conformation nd temperament I wouldn't breed them. I don't breed often. My dogs have to have both conformation and function. I've had dogs that didn't meet my standard even though it would've been enough to meet the standard that I refused to breed. I know others that feel the way I do.

    [A] - Yes all dogs need guidance and nurturing to be good pets or working dogs. What you start with though is critical to success.

    All sorts has been written about the boerboel, killer of lions etc. Thing is if you don't breed for drive athleticism and function you end up with boerboel furniture. If you do like I did you end up with dogs you can't place in pet homes, too much dog and dangerous for pet owners as they have limited recall. For such a large powerful dog its not ethical to do so. Boerboels are intuitively protective and are not meant to be schutzhund dogs, they are property and homestead guardians that must get on with other animals/livestock children and even the odd visitor. Not neurotically reactive but generally completely aware. They aren't used as police dogs as a result. Malinois are much better at that. Mastiffs are not portable enough, they intuit mostly, and they have vague abilities of recall. They are good around the homestead though as very effective deterrents. Not knowing the breeder or the dogs they were breeding I suggest perhaps in this case you mention the breeder didn't breed the way they claimed, simply fabricating the abilities of his dogs or he  knew his attackers or burglars. Eighty percent of violent or other wise attacks and burglaries in South Africa (if thats where they live)  are known to their assailants. This has a lot to do with a history of dissatisfaction amongst population groups in a close work environment. Short of shooting, my own Boerboels  wouldn't have let anyone in uninvited. No I never had to train them just select them based on these characteristics. Besides as I already said Boerboels don't train very well, Mastiffs generally don't they were never bred for that kind of work. Sure I had the odd puppy that turned out all goof ball and lover of all they met, without the drive, rather sleeping on the settee than keeping an eye on things, those I found pet homes for excluding them from my breeding programme. Dogs in a pack situation also learn faster without the breeder having to do a thing other than select those most responsive to learning with the innate ability to perform,  but most importantly WANT to perform the task they are breed for, guiding them along the way goes without saying.

     The bold type as answer doesn't appear in the published text so its a bit hard to read - apologies