Comment to 'why do dobermans seem weak?!?!?!'

    I find it odd that you mention since and you call the dog a pack animal. According to science dogs are not pack animals. They do not have a hierarchy. They do not use the hierarchy to preserve the existence to the pack. This was debunked by science long ago. In fact pack and dominance have debunked. The person that originally wrote the book that was quoted as being the first to say wold pack later wrote a new book and said he made a mistake about packs, and alpha male and alpha females. Many books were written after the first book and used what he said about wolves and later associated with dogs. So if his writing were wrong everything everyone else wrote that used is wrong information must also be wrong. Apparently he went to the publisher and wanted them to change what he wrote with correct information that he learned after more research. The publishers refused to rewrite and publish the book. Therefore he had to write a new book that didn't become as popular and o one knew that they were using bad information.

     Not sure what you are saying, dogs are wolves. Wolves operate, hunt in packs, cubs learn by example, from both their parents and later from the pack. They learn to behave for one, in a social setting.

    I didn't mention the structure of wolf packs at all. This can vary quite a lot depending on numbers, areas, situations, individuals and resources. Wolves are pack animals, social animals. It's a survival strategy.

    Completely aside from anything that I didn't actually say, yes of course wolves display social dominance, humans do to.

    It's not the entire concept of wolves displaying social dominance that was dispelled or "packs" even, just the simple "hierarchical pack structure of a dominant male and female" that was. The structure of a pack is very complex, nuanced behaviours of each individual in it affect the structure as do all the other things. Its also still a pack even though two wolves will more or less constitute a family, they still hunt in related packs, fend territory, show dominance, as individuals or as a pack. Certainly you get alpha males and alpha females this doesn't mean this is how the pack is structured or that they dominate the pack necessarily, just that those particular individuals display Alpha or Omega tendencies/behaviours. This might be only in some situations, within the pack or just towards their mate or another specific individual or individuals. Its even indeed possible to get an alpha male and female as parents within a pack dominating certain aspects of pack life. Parent wolves hold dominance over their cubs and will display dominance to protect them as well. Our relationship with dogs is defined by a parent cub type situation, where we act as the dominant parent, not the alpha, the parent. The operative word being parent. Through generations and generation of selection our dogs display more or less (varies with breeds) cub like characteristics and behaviours as a result. This suits us as we don't all want to be mauled by a wild wolf like dog in our living rooms or anywhere else.

    Of course its interesting and the confusion that exists about wolf pack structure has led to some abominable practises but it's not in the slightest pertinent to what I said about pups and youngsters learning from the pack (meaning all the dogs it interacts with on a daily basis).

    Working dogs are not always brought up in packs, no, but most are allowed to freely mingle as pups. Some no more than just the mother which can be a problem later on depending on the mother etc. My dogs were, and freely so after they were weaned. Assorted breeds as well. Creating a pack is something I might add that is also vital for example for livestock guardian breeds. Mature dogs don't chase sheep because as youngsters they learnt not too by example and by our guidance if neccessary, they also defend sheep better as a pack rather than as do homestead guardian breeds as youngsters learn to in the same way. If you constantly take them to the park to mingle with other people and socialise them to that they won't make very good guardians because they will see everyone as friendly. Some might not of course especially if they have more working drive and yes this can also depend on how they grew up on the nurture over nature. Both are important in working dogs.

    I don't think you read the link I sent and Im not up to repeating myself endlessly but just to say "evolution" certainly didn't create the functionless and in many cases (bulldog for one) debilitating extremes found in the show ring, nor did working dog breeders, or pet owners or puppy mills or any other breeder besides the show ring breeders. The End. (: