[quote=AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog] It tells more about you than the dogs. [/quote]
I agree. Considering I have never seen any other information posted implying that XCaneCorso is in any way an advocate of dog fighting, in my opinion posting that link says two things about him:
1. He's willing to research to find outside sources of information to back up a point of discussion.
2. Even though most people agree that dog fighting is bad, the fact remains that it is a part of history for MANY of the breeds that we love today. I , for one, think it's commendable to acquire as much the TRUTH about a breed's history, despite the red tape or whether you agree with the morality of it or not. Incidentally, on those spiked Volkodav collars; often dogs would wear them, but they simply wouldn't give one to every dog. Keep in mind that these are poor shepherds and those collars, even though simply in design, probably weren't terribly cheap - especially then you consider the areas they kept lived.
These shepherds wouldn't spend money on things that weren't an absolute necessity. Often a dog would have no collar until it killed a wolf and proved it's worth. If it couldn't kill a wolf without a collar, it must not have been that good of a dog. I don't know how widespread this practice was, but I don't doubt that it was true to a relatively moderate extent.
Regarding the Gray Wolf, its' size and its' tendencies here in the US. 25) How big are wolves?
The size of a wolf varies depending on where it is found. Smaller sizes tend to be found in the southern portion of wolf range and larger sizes in the northern portion. Females tend to be slightly smaller than males. The average size of males is 5 to 6.5 feet long (tip of nose to tip of tail), 26 to 32 inches high at the shoulder, and 70 to 115 pounds in weight (in Alaska they occasionally reach 145 pounds). The average size of females is 4.5 to 6 feet long, 26 to 32 inches high at the shoulder, and 60 to 100 pounds in weight. Wolves reach adult size by 1 year of age. 8 Do wolves really take the old, young, sick, starving, or injured animals? It is well-documented that wolves tend to do this. Hunting and bringing down big game is dangerous work and wolves are sometimes killed by elk, moose, and even deer. In the wild, they cannot afford to be injured; therefore, they go after the safest animals to kill and often leave strong animals alone. A recent study of wolf predation on elk in Yellowstone National Park, for example, found that wolves tend to kill calves and older animals – adult elk killed by wolves were about 7 years older than elk killed by hunters. If weather or other conditions make prey unusually vulnerable, wolves can and do kill prime-aged animals but wolf predation tends to be selective. http://www.fws.gov/midwest/wolf/biology/qandas.htm
4) How far do wolves travel?
Wolf packs usually hunt within a specific territory. It is not uncommon for territories to be as
large as 50 square miles but they may even extend up to 1,000 square miles in areas where prey
is scarce. Wolves often cover large areas to hunt, traveling as far as 30 miles a day. Although
they trot along at 5 m.p.h., wolves can attain speeds as high as 40 m.p.h. Most wolves disperse
from the pack they were born into by age three. Dispersing wolves have traveled as far as 600
miles.
Yes wolves will look to kill the old young and weak Moose & bison still over 1000 lb still Impressive after maybe a week of not eating they then can eat 20 lbs at one meal. Most wolves will be on their own for some part of their life traveling 600 miles looking for a mate or territory no easy task from section 15 of that website PDF version http://www.fws.gov/midwest/wolf/biology/qas-biology.pdf
No dog has the endurance of a wolf rarely faster or stronger very different lifestyles.
[quote=bulltaterbullies]ABBB is the only one making a real arguement. Canecorso1 thats great that youve seen all these COs, but if they run up on a 100lb AB that hunts 400lb wild hogs daily then its goin down. A dog such as this could definitely handle itself against a wolf. Of course its not a sure thing but all Im saying is there is no way you could say that a wolf could just destroy these types of dogs. COs slashin into EACH OTHER. Exactly how bout a bone breaking pit bull bite. Definitely not a clear win for a wolf.[/quote]
Wait a minute... You do realize that Larry Koura was a breeder of GAME BRED AMERICAN BULLDOGS, don't you? I mean, you have to have heard of The FUJIMO dog's he had, his Ully dog, and his Bama Boy performance line. If you haven't, then how can you possibly talk about what a 100 lb bulldog is capable of. My Female AB was off of Larry's yard. She was hell on wheels to people and dogs, but would have gotten eaten for breakfast by a wolf, and she was 70lbs when in lean shape. The Bone crunching bite force you keep bringing up... My male co Breaks femurs as if they were no more difficult that his kibble. Ever wonder why the Bull Terrier has the hardest bite force of all dogs? I'm sure the long muzzle combined with the immense muscling has nothing to do with it(like a wolf's or LGD's), I am sure it is the short muzzled breeds that have the strongest bite force. :roll:
ABBB..... If you think the European's have piss poor examples of the breed, you are sadly mistaken, and more misinformed than previously thought. Look up Balkan Boy's kennel in serbia, and look to member Montana who's friends keep the Madline kennel of game dogs. Educate yourself on a subject before trying to chime in with end all be all statements. OH... and the spiked collar thing... Even good dogs who wore them and proved themselves worthy got killed by Wolves, because wolves are NOT stupid curs like you people believe.
The last sentence is very true. Wolves are intelligent predators capable of adopting and surviving so a spiked collar would not always be effective in protecting the dog. The under belly will still be a vulnerable area.
Why is it that every kennel or youve seen or had is so badass. What about Kouras dogs? What does any knowledge of him or his dogs have to do with what I think an 100lb AB can do.
You have done a superior job of proving what you don't know. If you knew anything about the ""game"" AB and knew who Koura was, you wouldn't have had to ask that question. There wouldn't have been a ""game"" ab without the likes of him, joe painter and mike margentina. Thanks. It is officially time to move on to better things.
Now look who it is with the "end all be all" statements. Were you a psychology major? I like how you control both sides of an arguement to make yourself look smarter. Also your name dropping is cute.
Joe Painter and Mike Margentina crossed ABs with pits and fought them. SO what? Stop name dropping in hopes that I wont know who your talking about and make a point. Joe Painter's inbred deformities are hardly what I think of when I think of game ABs.
Name dropping... as in trying to drop names to get deals? LMAO. You are the one who said who cares what Larry Koura or his dogs did, and that they had no impact on the ""Game AB"". It was through Painter and Margentina that Koura got his foundation stock from, realized what was up with them, worked with Steve LeClerc at Indian Hy, they developed the Bama Boy line. Koura kept his FUJIMO lines as a dis to Painter. Koura kept the ""Game AB"" going. If it wasn't true, then why was there all the fuss about dogs of his like Kong and Ully, Max and Bandit, Perdi and Molly B? So please, other than putting names out there for people's information, in what way did I name drop? In what way was I wrong? What ""game"" AB's have you seen? Where were they from? How were they bred? What 100 lb bulldogs have you seen in action? And I don't mean playing tug or a theoretical battle based on what you saw them do through a fence.
[blockquote]you are the one who said who cares what Larry Koura or his dogs did, and that they had no impact on the ""Game AB"". [/blockquote]
I said that?
Painter and Margentina produced a few dogs because of what they started with. Their breeding habits were terrible. The Game AB would have been fine without them. Although Im a fan of the bully type, I personally like The Hines and Scott strains the best.
The topic is wolf vs. dog. Does a dog have a fair chance against a wolf? Yes it does. Can a dog take down a wolf? Yes it can. There is no need to break down every single strain of AB to discuss this.
You are right in what you just wrote, BTB. It is the incessant bringing up of how vastly superior a game dog of any breed is than a wolf. Or how much more superior 1 breed is at taking on a predatory animal. It is not about the breed of dog, it is about the DOG, what it has in it, how much lead is in its asss, and how good it really is. My thing is this, YES, game dogs are game and great for fighting dogs, but gameness will get a game dog killed when going up hill 100+ lbs or even 50+ into a wild predatory animal who kills and hunts and fights daily just to survive. This is the LGD's turf, and it should stay as such. LGD's SHOULD be game, but not so intensely game as say an APBT. How effective could it have been if the shepherds who created these breeds by selection went against animals that would leave a herd to chase down a predator. They selected for dogs who would not leave the herd, would fight on the drop of a dime when it is needed etc... They did keep select and special dogs for the purpose of HUNTING the roving wolves and predators, they were called the VOLKODAV, or wolf stranglers. These dogs are more game, and were kept usually on tether to the shepherds themselves, and when the other LGD's had a wolf or group of wolves at bay or in a corner, the Volkodav's would be let loose to dispatch of the predator. Much like the gang buster coyote dogs in the south(which usually were of AB descent). But, unlike the other LGD, these dogs would chase and leave the herd, which made them better suited as dispatchers that 100% of the time LGD's. They were different from the game dogs we are familiar with in that they are basically structured like a wolf, same basic type of animal with same weapons of choice, same defenses(manes and thick coats), same fighting style as the wolf because these were the dogs who had ""it"" and didn't have an issue going toe to toe with the predator. They weren't going uphill any significant amount of weight, and they weren't going in blindly like an APBT would. That is all I was trying to say all along.
[quote=crnosrce1"][quote="bulltaterbullies]ABBB is the only one making a real arguement. Canecorso1 thats great that youve seen all these COs, but if they run up on a 100lb AB that hunts 400lb wild hogs daily then its goin down. A dog such as this could definitely handle itself against a wolf. Of course its not a sure thing but all Im saying is there is no way you could say that a wolf could just destroy these types of dogs. COs slashin into EACH OTHER. Exactly how bout a bone breaking pit bull bite. Definitely not a clear win for a wolf.[/quote]
Ever wonder why the Bull Terrier has the hardest bite force of all dogs? [/quote]
I have never heard that the Bull terrier has the hardest bite force. The last I heard, the 2 hardest bites ever measured in canines were, a Mastiff that bit down with over 550 lbs and a large wolf that bit down with over 400 lbs of force..
crnosrce1 that was some good info. What about a game pits never back down and never say die attitude? I think it could be useful against a wolf that doesnt want an exhausting fight even when food is on the line. If the pit bull can strike first and battle the wolf until it desides the fight is not worth it then I would call that a victory for the dog. A true game dog will battle until it is physically incapable. The key is escaping any severe damage in doing so :) .
I honestly do not think the APBT will get a chance to show his endurance if he cornered a full grown male North American Grey. I think the APBT would die really fast and get half eaten.
BTB,
It is the never say die attitude that would get the APBT and dogs of the same type killed. It is an honorable attribute, and 1 that every single person with any grit in their belly on the earth admires. But, sensibility needs to accompany that attitude in order to go into these bloody battles that the LGD face when going against it's predatory cousins, and much bigger threats. The Volkodav variety of the LGD was found in each BREED of lgd. I wasn't specifically talking about the CO. In Sarplaninac they are called the vukodav, and their teeth are described as vukoder teeth, wolf killer teeth. As I said, the specialized ""dogs"" in every type of LGD were game animals, but also had, dare I say common sense. Common sense may be the wrong term, and self preservation may be what I am looking for. Either way, it is that trait that seperates the ''game apbt" from the "game lgd". Besides, LGD were bred for the purpose of keeping predators at bay, by fighting if necessary, and not to kill the predators. Here is why. As I said it takes a very special dog to be able to kill a wolf, and these piss poor(strictly monetarily speaking) shepherds couldn't afford to keep buying or bartering for dogs only to lose them at young ages from being too fight driven, but when that pup turned up in their litters, they never did complain :wink: . It was too much for them to risk to have fight crazy dogs not only for the replacement costs, but the fact that the dogs had to work in packs, and how many game APBT packs have you seen working together harmoniously? I can guess NONE.
I never said an APBT or AB couldn't handle itself in a fight with another canid, but there are limitations that EVERYTHING has and just can't over come. I do not believe a 50lbs GAME APBT could go up hill 100lbs into a healthy male wolf, and live to tell the tale. I say that, because I am fully convinced that wolves experience from everyday life will give it the overwhelming upperhand. Hypothetically speaking, if the APBT got the upper hand and was able to wear out the wolf, i could see the outcome being different, but I will never hold my breath for any bully breed to have better endurance than a wild, hunting, killing machine like a wolf.
Hope that helps.
Mike
[quote=bulltaterbullies]What about a game pits never back down and never say die attitude? [/quote]
That attitude can be directly linked to stupidity.
Before you get your panties in a bunch consider this:
Virtually EVERY animal, wild and domestic, has the inherent, natural trait of self preservation. Generally an animal will choose to flee if given an option or, at the very least, if injured badly in a scuffle. Any animal that will willingly sacrifice it's own welfare when there is no outside source of motivation (PP dogs' owner, pack territory) is not courageous or brave... it's stupidity.
Pit is likely to be "game" (stupid) enough to hold on while the wolf proceeds to cut, slash and bleed it out.
More balls then brains is what I have always said. While endearing to some including me and useful for dog fighters and hog hunters, it has no place when dealing with wolves because the result will a "Pitbull a'la carte" for a wolf. :P
I vote for the Chimp on that one. Its been done before and the Chimp as far as I know always kills the game dog by a combination of strangling and biting. Chimps are like 5 to 10 times stronger than an average adult human male. :twisted: :lol:
No, Chimp vs Pitbull, actually my post was a joke, but in thinking about it a Chimp would probably wreck a dog if it had the wherewithal to stay and fight it. Don't Baboons kill dogs and meaner beasts all of the time? *shrugs*
Maybe I should get a Kung-fu protection trained Chimpanzee for my house instead of a dog?
Actually, my post was meant to be “tongue in cheek” too. Chimp’s are strong and mean, a full grown male could probably take out any dog, dare I say Wolf included.
[quote=redneksamurai] Chimps are like 5 to 10 times stronger than an average adult human male. :twisted: :lol:[/quote]
Actually adult male chimps are much stronger than that.. A small female chimp is about 10 times stronger than the strongest man...I remember reading about study in which a female chimp had her non-dominant arm strapped on to a dyno that measured pulling force. It was set up to measure the force that she could one arm curl. When they got her in a rage she pulled with over 1,200 lbs of force.
could swear their was recently something bout a male chimp attacking some dudes on safari....busted open they're range rover...and tore at least one or more oof the occupants limb from limb...seems that was last year sometime
There was an incident in California recently, last 5 yrs or so, at a Chimpanzee rescue place(where circus or zoo or testing animals go to die). 2 males broke free and attacked some visitors to the park. A mans face AND genitals were removed. That is how they do things, tear off the face and genitals, and then you are theirs. There is also footage in Africa of troops of Chimps hunting down and eating other primates. These animals lives and hierarchy is based in confrontation and violence... and they are our closest relatives in the primate world, being separated by 1 pair of chromosomes, it is easy to see why some people are much more prove to violence, murder, cannibalism etc... than others.
That does it then, I am going to find a Chimpanzee breeder and get me a Kungfu-Protection trained Chimpanzee to put burglars, home invaders, and obnoxious neighbors in their place!
Now, just imagine if you got the less ""generic"" version and got a bonobo. Or hell, go to a mountain gorilla. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
[quote=redneksamurai]That does it then, I am going to find a Chimpanzee breeder and get me a Kungfu-Protection trained Chimpanzee to put burglars, home invaders, and obnoxious neighbors in their place![/quote]
[quote=redneksamurai]That does it then, I am going to find a Chimpanzee breeder and get me a Kungfu-Protection trained Chimpanzee to put burglars, home invaders, and obnoxious neighbors in their place![/quote]
Get an Orangutan. They are at least as strong as chimps and they have much better temperments... :D
But watch out, they like to play. A game of tug of war with an Orang will likely get you tossed accross the street... 8O
[quote=esprinter"][quote="redneksamurai]That does it then, I am going to find a Chimpanzee breeder and get me a Kungfu-Protection trained Chimpanzee to put burglars, home invaders, and obnoxious neighbors in their place![/quote]
Get an Orangutan. They are at least as strong as chimps and they have much better temperments... :D
But watch out, they like to play. A game of tug of war with an Orang will likely get you tossed accross the street... 8O[/quote]
well that and they like Oreos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMNvYhI4AzM
"LOL what is the story behind that pic, is it doctored?"
Probably not. Looks like a trap line dog.
Kinda illustrates why it's a smart idea to use (ultimately) breakable leather collars with the large ring at the back so hunting dogs can wriggle free if hung up someplace. Coyote jaws may be another matter! :)
You got that right. that coyote could eviscerate that dog in seconds if it wanted to.
And to further put it into perspective, both coyotes and wolves physically have about a 33% larger skull than a domestic dog of comparable weight and size.
Stated another way, it's nothing for a wolf or a coyote to easily do away with a dog 30% bigger than they are. That is my opinion from watching my own and other captive wolves pull and knock people and animals bigger than themselves around with little effort.
I still don't think most people even remotely comprehend what these predators are capable of doing when cornered.
[quote=AlapahaBlueBloodBulldog] It tells more about you than the dogs. [/quote]
I agree. Considering I have never seen any other information posted implying that XCaneCorso is in any way an advocate of dog fighting, in my opinion posting that link says two things about him:
1. He's willing to research to find outside sources of information to back up a point of discussion.
2. Even though most people agree that dog fighting is bad, the fact remains that it is a part of history for MANY of the breeds that we love today. I , for one, think it's commendable to acquire as much the TRUTH about a breed's history, despite the red tape or whether you agree with the morality of it or not. Incidentally, on those spiked Volkodav collars; often dogs would wear them, but they simply wouldn't give one to every dog. Keep in mind that these are poor shepherds and those collars, even though simply in design, probably weren't terribly cheap - especially then you consider the areas they kept lived.
These shepherds wouldn't spend money on things that weren't an absolute necessity. Often a dog would have no collar until it killed a wolf and proved it's worth. If it couldn't kill a wolf without a collar, it must not have been that good of a dog. I don't know how widespread this practice was, but I don't doubt that it was true to a relatively moderate extent.
A
Regarding the Gray Wolf, its' size and its' tendencies here in the US. 25) How big are wolves?
The size of a wolf varies depending on where it is found. Smaller sizes tend to be found in the southern portion of wolf range and larger sizes in the northern portion. Females tend to be slightly smaller than males. The average size of males is 5 to 6.5 feet long (tip of nose to tip of tail), 26 to 32 inches high at the shoulder, and 70 to 115 pounds in weight (in Alaska they occasionally reach 145 pounds). The average size of females is 4.5 to 6 feet long, 26 to 32 inches high at the shoulder, and 60 to 100 pounds in weight. Wolves reach adult size by 1 year of age. 8 Do wolves really take the old, young, sick, starving, or injured animals? It is well-documented that wolves tend to do this. Hunting and bringing down big game is dangerous work and wolves are sometimes killed by elk, moose, and even deer. In the wild, they cannot afford to be injured; therefore, they go after the safest animals to kill and often leave strong animals alone. A recent study of wolf predation on elk in Yellowstone National Park, for example, found that wolves tend to kill calves and older animals – adult elk killed by wolves were about 7 years older than elk killed by hunters. If weather or other conditions make prey unusually vulnerable, wolves can and do kill prime-aged animals but wolf predation tends to be selective. http://www.fws.gov/midwest/wolf/biology/qandas.htm
C
The last sentence is very true. Wolves are intelligent predators capable of adopting and surviving so a spiked collar would not always be effective in protecting the dog. The under belly will still be a vulnerable area.
O
D
D
Y
O
O
O
D
O
O
S