hmmm sensetive subject you got there i know many sports guys that will rip my head off if i'll tell that there dogs useless in PP LOL i think that you have difference and a big one. first of all you can find some good sports dog that are pretty crappy as a PP dogs and you can find some amazing PP dogs that can barly pass the schh each thing ask for a different kind of a dog, each side look for somting els and training in a different way. take us for exsample: at first we started by working our dogs for sports, very fast we learned that good sport grades and titles doesn't say much or even nothing about the dog, you can find dogs with high titles that you can't stop thinking how the hell they got so far and you can see some great producers and workers that just can't take the title because they very hard to controll as a working dog but they also amazing in drives so you can't say the're crap. so i won't be killed in the night by sports lovers i say that you can also find some reall kick ass dogs in sports but for me the sport himself deosn't say much about the dog except ofcourse the KNPV here i have alot of respect to the greatest sport ever that succsessfully keep producing the best security kind working dogs for police, military and etc :lol: you can't say what's better and what's worse because each trainer or breeder look for somting els, uses different kind of dog ( bloodlines ) to get to what he needs

I spent the day at a shutzhund trial. I also occassionaly train at a facility that trains police dog teams. I think any time one make sweeping generalizations one shows there lack of understanding of the topic. The best training in the world must start with a dog that has the courage & apptitude. With that foundation one can almost anything with the dog. Training isn't Voodoo magic......It's a series of learned behaviors in responce to signals or triggers.

There is a big difference in North America. Schutzhund was created to be the working trials and was an excellent tool for just that until it slowely switched to a sport and the creation of prey drive increase. However the defense drives greatly decreased. Personal Protection can easily be taught to a sport dog, but the need to work up the defense drives is great. That is the thing that is truely missing from schutzhund and it is so unfortunate!

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/distano2.htm Check out this link, this particular article was American Bulldog vs German Shepard Dog specifically talking about training and performance of one vs. the other in PP. Upcoming articles will include Sports Dogs vs Street Dogs ... sounds like what we are talking about here. Now I will get to my point... I think there is a difference, not so much in the actual training, sure you can get any dog with aptitude and drive to do just about anything...however I think some will excel more in one catagory than the other. Im not sure what you are getting at here with this being controversial...but I think it is pretty obvious that some "sport" dogs aren't as good at PP and vice versa...when you are talking about a PP dog I think the question is can this dog be beaten? That is to say if pushed to do it's job one will break and another dog may not break. One specific point mentioned in the above link is pain threshold...the opinion of the trainer was that the AB has the potential to be a better PP dog than the GSD for that reason...maybe Im off on a tangent or Im not understanding the question, but Im with the first response I've seen sport dogs that were great at what they did, that I know as a GD/PP trainer and handler I could beat! if for no other reason than size...I could take a bite from 55lb pointer and make him let go (under the right circumstances) a lot sooner than a bite from a 120 lb Rott that is most likely gonna knock you on your ass. One other example I'll give to rap this up... I've seen with my own eyes a handler get mauled by a 140lb Akita...after it was all done and the canine unit showed up, the cop told me his GSD wouldn't have done near the amount damage this dog did, he was just in awe...i In case I'm not being clear let me just say this, there is a difference when talking about PP dogs and the difference is the: All dogs are not created equal...I've seen Jack Russels do protection work! Are you gonna tell me there is no difference between a Jack Russel effectively stopping an Intruder and any 100lb+ dog stopping an intruder...ofcourse not!! I'm talking real world scenarios here.

Some breeds take pressure better, some breeds have higher pain tolerence, some are more responcive to voice command. All are just generalizations, starting points when choosing a breed to work with. Herding breeds were "designesd " to think. An average GSD will out track a good Rottweiler. A poor Malinous will smoke an great AB when doing blind searches. A pit or AB isn't coming off a sleeve until it wants to vs a Dobe that will lose interest and release( Dobe A.D.D.) None of this is good or bad, it just is. If there is any contravercy it's between Sport & PP people that think they are only on the true path. :wink: I think a well rounded dog should be ablle to excell in both. My favorite comment , "Shutzhund is a game". Well so is boxing, tell me a punch in the face from Mike Tyson won't hurt :lol:

[quote=Platz] My favorite comment , "Shutzhund is a game". Well so is boxing, tell me a punch in the face from Mike Tyson won't hurt :lol:[/quote] Indeed. However, some dogs that are trained ONLY in sport and regimented drills and exercises have a hard time in real situations, such as being blindly attacked when being loaded into a car. More often than not the dog will still jump up into the car. While bite work sports can provide a GREAT basis for true protection work, I won't ever blindly group them together and assume with 100% confidence that a sport dog will protect without any "real" situational training.

:[/quote] While bite work sports can provide a GREAT basis for true protection work, I won't ever blindly group them together and assume with 100% confidence that a sport dog will protect without any "real" situational training.[/quote] Very astute comment Kris. I totally agree with you. There are alot of dogs trained in Schutzhund (at least Sch I) and it is nothing but a game to them.

Gentleman I agree with you both., it really is all about proofing the dogs. ALL bite training be it PP, Shutzhund or Ring sport is a game. PP just gives a dog more varity. My own phyisophical problem with Shutzhund is that it should have stayed a test that was pass/fail vs. a pointed exercize. I've personaly trained with a few Shutzhund dogs that really could care less that the helper had the sleeve on and would happy take a bare arm if offered during an excersize. Further, I've yet ro meet a Helper that hasn't taken an intental bite to the body or unprotected arm/hand during an excersize. I've also oberserved two GSD that were dedicated face biters and would egarly attempt to demostrate that to any helper that didn't offer a proper sleeve presentation 8O

Yes boxing is a sport! And you don't see boxers in the MMA (mixed martial arts) cage, which is the closest venue for real world fight situations we have. My point? PP stresses more real world situations, and at the end of the day the question for your PP dog is, will he protect you in a real world situation...although that anwer may be the same in some situations for both sport dogs and PP dogs, in others, in my opinion it will be very different! And that is the difference.

Just to be clear I'm not taking sides or putting anyone down for thier choice of training method. I'm making a comment about those that do :wink: I do find it amusing that some claim because a dog only takes an exposed sleeve in shutzhund that it a one trick pony. A dog trained, properly excuting a blind search is look for the "trigger" to take the bite. The trigger is the movement of the helper NOT the sleeve. Practical application - One of the women in our club had to rush her hubbie off to the Hospital when he complained of chest pain. (Fortunately, it was his gall blatter) On her return home her garage door was open and door to the house was open. In her panic over her husband she couldn't remember if she left it open or not. She got her Sh. III Malinious from the kennel and had the dog search the house. No problem found. I know that dog and I have every confidence it would have grabbed anyone moving in that house. My point being that maybe no enough credit is given to Shuzhund work. That said PP work does offer great training options by offering different "Looks" for the team. In the end it still gets down to the team and the dog taking proper direction, with constant proofing. We all can learn from each other. One neat "trick" I learned visiting a PP trial was the "toe tap" signal. 8) 8) 8)

[quote="poseidon") Someone is actually using their brain here. Spot on Xamen13.[/quote] And who is not using thier brain? 8O

Actually there have been a few boxers that tried to fight MMA fighters. The last I saw was Ray Mercer fight Kimo Slice in a cage match and Ray Mercer got the snot beat out of him and choked within 1 minute. The same has happened to ever other "Pure" boxer that has bothered to step into the octagon. What that sais about dogs im not sure, but I figured I would share this tidbit since analogues were being thrown around.

Meaning, Kimbo Slice?

Yes sir, that is exactly what happened! and that was exactly my point, the "sport" boxer, doesn't stand a chance against the real world MMA fighter...and what that says about dogs as it relates to this discussion is that the sport dog and the PP dog are not the same! I was drawing a parallel to there being a difference between the two.

That being said...I do agree with Platz, as I have handled Sch III dogs in real world situations...and they did a fine job. One can do the others job and vice/versa it really depends on the dog and the training.

Chis - We do agree and not to nit pick it depends on the team..handler and dog. It's not just the training excersize it's the proofing that resaults. A dog with courage & confidence will preform no matter if it has learned to take a sleeve or a bit suit. I'm sorry your analogy isn't appropreate. Your MMA fioghter and your boxere are fighting each other. We are not talking about a Shuzhund v. PP dog fighting,we are talking about a a dog v. a human attacker whoi's skill level & determinenation are unknown.

Exactly, Frank. The correct analogy would be something along the lines of: "Who would you rather have in your corner when under attack - your boxer buddy or your MMA friend?"

Wolf - I'd prefer Mr. 870 Remmington loaded with #1 buckshot :wink: But, that's another thread on an another site.

wow...I thought that was the analogy I was trying to make...who would you rather have be your bodyguard?? and respectfully sir... if I say I agree with you... I agree with you... I may not word it so that you can hear it but non the less I agree... A proven dog is a proven dog... one can do the other's job and vice versa .... what I am saying is one method sport/PP is different from the other ...like boxing is different from MMA. I think some of you argue just to argue... let's take belly mates...say Rott's put one in sport and one in PP ... will you get the same result??? lets say they are both proven. Does one respond differently from it's training than the other? Maybe I just don't understand ... I am only rookie, afterall.

Chris - 8) :wink: Yes, we do tend to mess with each other, welcome to the club :lol: Two Rottys with the correct & proper temperment, one trained in PP one in Shutzhund how would thery differ? I believe the PP Rotty would be more "On" all the time. Which in Rottweilers might be a royal P.I.A. to own. Rottys are always "On" to a point anyway, watching the area for threats, like that man that steals our Garbage every Monday morning :roll: :lol: That trait of looking for threats makes Focus Heeling a challenge when working a Rottweiler in Shutzhund. In thier mind they don't need to watch you as the heel , they need to be watching OUT for danger to protect you.

Once again I concur with your astute asessment. :lol: Let me take another angle here... you mentioned the dobe in a previous comment. This was actually the particular breed I had in mind when I first answered... It has been an opinion of mine for some time...back when I had a guard dog route of about 30 dogs ... (mostly Rott's, GSD, a few Dobe's, a couple Great Dane's, an Akita) all hard dogs who were rescued for being to aggresive usually. it was my opinion that if I had to take a bite from one of these dogs...it would have been the Dobe. In other words, I thought I could beat the Dobe if I had to. That being said I think he would have made a great sport dog...but has a PP dog he was barely adequet...

.

Ya, cause the only time my Rottie was ever ON was when you brought out her food! :lol:

[quote=4myneo]Ya, cause the only time my Rottie was ever ON was when you brought out her food! :lol:[/quote] :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I just made Elsa do a sit stay as I made up her BARF. This morning was a fast, so she was extra hungry. While she was siting there she was blowing foam bubbles out the corner of her mouth as she waited for her food. :lol: :lol: :lol: But, she held that sit for 5 mins. and didn't break until I realsed her with the bowl at her feet!!!

Pretty good Frank! LOL The only time my Nala would do anything for more than 30 sec was if you were rubbing her head, or if she was lying under the baby's high chair to wait for him to throw her something. :wink:

[quote=4myneo]Pretty good Frank! LOL The only time my Nala would do anything for more than 30 sec was if you were rubbing her head, or if she was lying under the baby's high chair to wait for him to throw her something. :wink:[/quote] I tried that sit stay tonight with sardines in her food bowl......Rock Soilds Sit Stay.....Ummmm......Not so much.... :oops: :oops: :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol: