A E-collar can be a nice tool to fine tune a dog that already has basics and some advanced work mastered. The problem INHO is that to some people look at it as a easy way around fundementals something that I feel is a gravious error. If I understand you question properly. If you'd like to use it on a long recall, I would tell you that you need to have a fairly reliable recall now without excessive distraction. The E-collar would be then added along with mild disatraction & increased distence. Another use is during off lead heeling with distraction present. Again you should have you basic heeling off lead understood. Remember training tools are only a part of the education process and NOT a substitute for training work time.

Des, I agree that you are right in thinking that the E-Collar can be a trigger in an attack in certain situations. I also think Platz is right in saying that it is an easy way around fundamentals in obedience training. The key in this, though, is to recognize that you're dealing with a CO, which will *never* be as responsive as a GSD (for example) in obedience. While it may be effective under normal circumstances, it can also be a defecit to any training regime (regardless of breed) if used incorrectly.

Desiree: I am certain Platz has more experience in hands-on training than I. Further, I personally have no experience with CO’s. My experience is limited to speaking and working with trainers who train exclusively with e-collars and attending their classes and seminars. They train police, drug and explosive detection dogs as well as family pets. At these classes I have seen all types of dogs from beagles to English Mastiffs. As to your questions, first, I would question the collar itself. In the States most pet stores do not sell quality e-collars. In order to find a real e-collar, you must buy from a specialty store or private distributor. I have no idea of the brands and types available in Holland; however, I can say a decent quality e-collar will run you at least $300 to $500 in the U.S. Depending on the functions (tone, vibration, etc.) and number of dogs, they can run upwards of $700-$800 (multiple dogs, collars, transmitters, etc.) Second, I personally do not believe one should use an e-collar without some serious training from a very experienced professional for both you and your dog. The e-collar does not automatically train your dog, and employing its use without proper introduction of the product to your dog and proper training in its use is likely to produce negative results. As with any training method, there is no easy road and there is no substitute for time and practice. A major problem with these devices is that people think they can just strap it on and hit a button and voila, the dog is perfect. This experience and training is also not inexpensive; so if you are looking for an inexpensive method, e-collars and the responsible use of them, is not the way to go. Finally, your trigger question. I would never use the collar in a face-off situation. The idea with the collar, or any method, is to maintain or re-direct the dog’s attention prior to this point. The other topic you also brought up is usually referred to burn-through; meaning an agitated dog will not respond to the collar or simply burns through it. This is a whole other topic. As stated, I have no CO experience, but this happens with many guardian-type breeds. I would also add, this reaction would likely result from any other method as well. BK

If you are looking for somethin specifically to stop a dog from barking I would reccomend one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Premier-Gentle-Spray-Anti-Bark-Collar/dp/B0002D31QU All it takes is for the dog to get sprayed a couple times and they know not to bark around that collar anymore. They work so well that once the dog gets the association all you have to do is show them the collar when they start to bark and they will stop.

Desiree- That sounds like a perfect example of improper use and lack of training/understanding on her part. You are right about the triggering, especially when actual aggression is taking place. It also sounds like your friend or acquaintance was using the collar for correction. I don’t really believe in that. My other take on that is, if she does not have control over her dog around other dogs, she shouldn’t be putting her dog in that situation in the first place with or without an e-collar. BK

[quote=AmazingPoopyDouche]ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?[/quote] Umm... can we get rid of this hot aired biggot already?? First he comes on here with his 3 mile long thread that says NOTHING... Then he starts in on Frank and Parker on their methods... AND THEN, the icing on the cake, calls the rest of THIS forum, YOUR forum Gary, Dummies.... Is this enough proof that this person is not needed, and should not be welcome here?? OR, will we have to lose 15 more members to keep this one, long posting, no spelling wind bag?

I also was kind of looking at the e-collar. My 9 month old bullmastiff pup likes to test me, which I think is normal. But the problem sometimes is when he doesn't have his prong collar or lead on. For example -- If he happens to have something I don't want him to have and I tell him to drop it -- If he has his prong collar on he will, but if not he will want to test me and try to play keep away. I don't let him win, I eventually get a hold of him and put his prong collar on. At that time he is an angel because he knows he is in trouble. We will go through a series of commands until he is listening to everything I say. Would this type of situation be a time for the e-collar? or should I just keep being persistent and not let him get away with that kind of stuff?

HOWEDY crnosrce1 a.k.a. mike, [quote=crnosrce1"][quote="AmazingPoopyDouche]ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?[/quote] Umm... can we get rid of this hot aired biggot already?? First he comes on here with his 3 mile long thread that says NOTHING...[/quote] EMBARRASSING, AIN'T HE, mikey? EFFECTIVE DOG TRAININ AIN'T LUCK. IT'S SCIENCE AT ITS BEAST. Evidently you DIDN'T LIKE the SCIENCE of Pavlov, Skinner, Corson, von Hilsheimer, Neill, Lorenz, Whaler, Szryinsky, Lovas, et. al., that I CITED? "BIGGOT", mikey? Oh, you mean on accHOWENTA I FEAR and HATE dog abusin NAZI COWARDS who HURT, INTIMIDATE an MURDER dogs they FEAR, and when CHALLENGED by a REAL dog behavior EXXXPERT wielding the SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR, the dog abusin cowards run an hide behind their KILLFILES, mikey, instead of DEFENDING THEMSELVES by alphalpha rolling chokin an shockin those who CHALLENGE their ABUSES like HOWE they TEACH DUMMIES to do to innocent defenseless dumb critters, mikey?? [quote="crnosrce1"][ Then he starts in on Frank and Parker on their methods...[/quote] I think what you're goin through is what woolfie referred to as FIP *(fear imprint period). Woolfie sez: "I've known people who've gotten rid of their dogs because of it, because they didn't realize (or believe) that if handled properly and in accordance to the severity of the F.I.P. the dog would get over its momentary fears and continue being a fine dog afterwards. I've also known folks who've made things worse and damaged their dogs for good by doing the wrong things when their dogs were going through one of their Fear Imprint Periods, such as getting frustrated and yelling, sometimes physically correcting them." HOWEver, I DISAGREE. In my OPINION, this is simply a case of "WEAK NERVES". Weak nerves are CAUSED BY self-professed dog trainers associating with other weak nerved self-professed dog trainers *(see allelomimetic behavior) who LIKE to JERK CHOKE BRIBE CRATE INTIMIDATE an SHOCK dogs when their EXXXPERT METHODS FAIL. WEAK NERVE SYNDROME is compHOWENDED by REAL dog trainers who UNDERSTAND the SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR but ARE NOT WILLING to *(or are AFRIAD of social isolation from ordinary DUMMIES) who's SENSIBILITIES migh be OFFENDED, to temporarily DISREGARD their own SCIENCE and philosophy of POLITENESS and "political correctness" of non violent methods long enough to CORRECT the PATHJETICself important dog abusin NAZI cowards using THEIR OWN METHODS: alphalpha rolling them with EXXXPERT timing / shoving their fingers down their throats to gently choke them HOWETA mouthing *(if they're young pups) and jerking and choking them on pronged spikedpinch choke collars an shocking them if they're old enough to withstand EFFECTIVE CORRECTIONS. [quote="crnosrce1"][AND THEN, the icing on the cake, calls the rest of THIS forum, YOUR forum Gary, Dummies....[/quote] "If the shoe fits", mikey. The QUESTION should be, does this forum want "BALANCED TRAINERS" who RELY on PAIN FEAR FORCE BRIBERY INTIMIDATION an MURDERIN innocent defenseless dumb critters when their EXXXPERTEASE FAILS THEM and THEN they BLAME THE DOG for bein "HARD WIRED WRONG"? THAT'S INSANE, mikey. It's DOG TRAINERS who ABUSE dogs that CAUSE temperament and behavior problems resuling in BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION / RACISM. It's DOG TRAINERS who MURDER dogs they FEAR, mikey. OR does this forum CARE MORE abHOWET EFFECTIVE NON PHYSICAL SCIENTIFIC methods which achieve 100% CONSISTENT NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS? The CHOICE is YOURS. [quote="crnosrce1"][Is this enough proof that this person is not needed, and should not be welcome here??[/quote] Hmmm. And *I* was called a NAZI for jammin SCIENCE down your throats? [quote="crnosrce1"][ OR, will we have to lose 15 more members to keep this one, long posting, no spelling wind bag?[/quote] Well mikey, did platzie put you up to this?? Doesn't he have a mommy to defend him? As I told platzie: DEFEND YOURSELF or RUN HOME CRYIN to your mommy an tell her The Amazing Puppy Wizard is PICKIN ON YOU. Here's the SCIENCE YOU FEAR: In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY you may substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and witholding rewards, attention, and affection: Psychological Effects At issue is the question, --Do electronic training devices elicit psychological responses? "This section cites several research studies in which the psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on what it is, but it varies from dog to dog. It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild. Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004). Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334). The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general obedience and protection training. One group was trained with shock collars and the other group without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and tongue flicking. It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to show signs of stress while in the company of their handler. The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful; receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owners. This study has come under considerable fire because the experience of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the experience of being shocked during training. --------------------- "Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected reward not received is experienced as a punishment and can produce extensive and persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)." IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov: "Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV "Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy of Sciences, Moscow: The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the resistance to coercion," respectively, described by contemporary ethologists. On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose," conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive emotions arising in connection with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement. The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e., by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man. Simonov PV Publication Types:

• Review
• Review, tutorial

PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun; 20(3):230-5 "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies. "All animals learn best through play," Lorenz. "The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al (1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment procedure developing imitative speech in two severly disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty- six days the boys are reported to have been learning new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning immediately deteriorated. Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well established in research than the various dynamic therapists." Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement; 3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers." "It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in deviant behavior of children can be achieved through brief, simple educative routines with their mothers which modify the mother's social behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the need for child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965). A large number of cases improved sufficiently after preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment of children was required, and almost ALL cases SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy. Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)." A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK! The Embry Study: "While some may find it strange that reprimands might increase the chances of a child going into the street, the literature on the experimental analysis of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of more inappropriate behavior. Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason with their children about dashing into the street will likely to have the opposite impact. Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it." Source: "Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis in the Natural Environment. Research Report Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project." B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused, actually has been proven not effective at long- term behavioral change, and creatures will find other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter 1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states: If we no longer resort to torture in what we call the civilized world, we nevertheless still make extensive use of punitive techniques in both domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for good reasons. Nature if not God has created man in such a way that he can be controlled punitively. People quickly become skillful punishers (if not, thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative positive measures are not easily learned. The need for punishment seems to have the support of history, and alternative practices threaten the cherished values of freedom and dignity. Fear involved with punishment causes frustration: with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy. Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior have proved very valuable. ---------------------------- Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME B.S. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400 You might improve the learning of folk who actually live with and train dogs to do useful things if you excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists. I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland. This married pair of psychologists began the long trail of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum! The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand the personal history of the particular animal, and the history of this animal's species and group, the developmental history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal. Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking, you aren't going to have much success. A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond, say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell. Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the animal takes action and uses an instrument. The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator, Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology went haring after phantasmagora. The major theorists for the development of the language of operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major role in the development of American psychology. They proposed that learning is the result of the application of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.) Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g., an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant" because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that follows the response that influences whether the response is likely or unlikely to occur again. It is through operant conditioning that voluntary responses are learned. One should note that Russian Psychology did very well without the operant language, and only pettifogging university professors ought to worry about what kind of label we attach to the learning. Pfui! Even Skinner understood this! And please note if you saw the original movie, THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX THERAPY. Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat the fish and not the pretty girl?" George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. Who's Who Honoree since 1983 George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date. These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and you can't get yourself into them. -------------------- Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad? Was: Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESES With PRAISE, Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally support or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do with what he has just done, it has to do with your relationship with him. "Good dog" means "I love you, dog". If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment. You praise and admire him. Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy, and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his enemy. Why does paradoxical reward work? The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say "Good Dog" you love and praise him. THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM. The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious. No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den. If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside trying to get in and eat him. The dog knows that it is stupid to defecate where he eats or sleeps. Don't you? If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he is safe, no pooping on the living room floor. Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety, expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog! Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate. Love the dog. Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating on the floor. Fondly, Dr. Von George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date. These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and you can't get yourself into them. GvH -------------------- Here's an SAR trainer of twenty years EXXXPERIENCE: From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca) Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard? Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST > > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. > > Mike > > Ok Mike which part worked for you? It helped clear problems from my dogs in the field using the can penny distraction technique. Works like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team Leader. Sorry that slipped my mind. I have read volumes of training books and don't know where people get that Jerry copied others work as I have NEVER come across his methods before. I would like to see proof. Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train out the problems leaving what you want left over. Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems as the other didn't need correcting for some of his habits after I cleared it from the first dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis. Nice side benefit there. It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party trainer as they were not performing well. The VAST majority of working dog trainers are agressive in their actions with the dogs. I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I was at my "Whits End" then someone I new turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history. I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual and all have had great results. Starting puppies out on the distraction technique is especially good because they never develop the habit. I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened in all my days. Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple. Mike ------------- Here's a professional dog trainer of thirty years experience: From: BNTDO...@aol.com To: jho...@bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: Update Hi Jerry, Just an update to let you know how things are going. Hunter is doing really great thanks to you and your training manual. I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get him re-evaluated for aggression. all weekend long I had kids run by the fence to try and make him bark. He didn't! Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his dog aggression but even that is going good for him. I have less and less of a problem with him in my vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect it from the four wheeled monsters that go by. I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when we go down the road and he won't try to jump out at the cars that go by. I have shared the manual with several dog owners that I know and even a group of dog trainers. Thank you again. Kay From: "Jerry Howe" To: Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Update Have your vet call me if he's interested in behavior. XXX/OOO. Jerry. --------------- From: BNTDO...@aol.com To: jho...@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized." Dear Jerry, It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that maligning you and your training manual but tell them from me that it does work. Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated putting him down are impressed with him. I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could do his nails. All 4 feet. My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more pleased. He even tried to kiss a child the other day. Major break through. This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield. So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training is Do No Harm. The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule. Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my side where he belongs. Thank you so much. Kay ----------------- From: jho...@bellsouth.net (The Puppy Wizard) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:07:52 -0000 Subject: "Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All Tainers Who Call Themselves Trainers," Kay Pierce. From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Wits end Training Jerry, I started Hunter on his training using your manual and training method. What a marked difference in just a few hours. I had him in my van and just using the sound with his remote trainer and telling him he's a good dog when he started looking like he was going to bark at a car worked great. He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him to a spot that we had used years ago to train, Jerry I have hope that I can have my happy dog back soon. And not this tense unhappy creature I live with now. He was so happy today. I am looking forward to getting the machine so that he can stay that way. Thank you, Kay Pierce ------------------- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: Making Progress Hello Jerry, Hunter and I started working the recall and family pack exercise today. On leash and in the house he has a perfect recall. And I think he really started to relax and enjoy himself I swear he was laughing. I had taught him to go to the heel position when he comes to me years ago. And over the past few months I have had to tell him to go there. Today he flew into the heel position each and every time without me saying a word to him about it. He has never bounced like that before. I trained him using conventional methods with a choker and pinch collar. Over the past few days we have been using his regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it more. As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer and when I trained my latest dog I used all positive reinforcements techniques. When I trained for that I had been amazed at the results. Your method takes positive training to the next level and should really be used by all trainers who call themselves trainers. My Hunter is concentrating on me and not on the treat he thinks he wants. My other dog wants treats before she'll do anything. As soon as I get Hunter straightened out she's next. Thank you so much, Kay Pierce ------------------ From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM Subject: Head Hunter Dear Jerry, Just thought I would write to let you know how well Hunter is doing. He had been trained using the conventional methods for obedience. He had gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar. Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around. I had also tried using positive reinforcement methods that I had been trained in. He was so busy looking for the treat that he didn't really want to work. So I went back to using the pinch collar on him and also a gentle leader when we were in public. Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and he did deserve his reputation as a vicious dog. The vet had recommended that he be put down. I was in a panic when I found your web site. Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first started out with 5 years ago. I am a professional trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs don't respond to any kind of training and that a vicious dog can never be trusted again. I disagree! Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him with me and he doesn't chase cars as much anymore which is one of his main problems. We are working on the dog aggression thing. And I am confident that will be successful too. I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that too is working good. I know of several rescue groups that would benefit from it. This is rather long I know but it comes from the heart. My Head Hunter Green and I have together along time and have been through so much together. Thank you for helping me save his life. Kay Pierce -------------------- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM Subject: Jerry the jerk howe Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either his way or your wrong no matter what training method you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the post. He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I would pay him a visit. He used your post from July in his rebuttal Bob Garrett From: BNTDO...@aol.com To: Caninesanctu...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk. I am a dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years. I believe strongly in positive reinforcement. My youngest was trained using treats and praise. My oldest how ever was not trained that way I am ashamed to say. The result a very dangerous dog. He has problems with barrier and dominance aggression. A year ago he put a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal. When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well. You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the phone and consulted him about his training methods. I really grilled him before I even considered using his methods. He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls. When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone. I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to take him to iffy places. But hey, I know he is now a sugar. And the most important thing he is happy again. It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I have mine. Sincerely Kay --------------------- Here's a professional trainer of 33 years experience. "Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME The Very First Time' - Marilyn. Subject: To Jerry 1 From: MarilynRammell Date: Tues, Aug 3 1999 3:00 am Email: "MarilynRammell" Hello Jerry, A client of mine asked to say a 'big thank you' to you. They have a 8 month spaniel that they were about to get rid of. In fact they had put her into kennels for a few day while they 'thought it through'. They rang me the day before they were due to collect her. She had wrecked their home - everytime they left her she destroyed something else. The walls, the cabinets, the carpets, table legs, chair legs, - anything and everything. They collected her and brought her to me. I gave them some routine training exercises, and also I wrote out your advice (I will say at this point that I was not sure about it at all, and felt a little embarrassed - it was the advice about the 'toy dog that gets the praise for not making a mess'. Anyway, this was 11 days ago and I heard nothing. Yesterday they turned up at the new Monday evening class. They were absolutely delighted. They told me that after just one attempt, (your toy suggestion) she 'stopped all the destruction'. They were in tear of happiness while telling me. Thank you Jerry. Respectfully, Marilyn ---------------- From: Marilyn Rammell (marilynramm...@hotmail.com) Subject: Re: Separation anxiety (?) help needed! Date: 1999/10/13 Hi Steve, Just want to second Jerry's method for dealing with this - I've suggested it to quite a few clients now and it's worked 'every' time. It sounds a little 'amusing' I agree, but it really works. Two of the occasions it's worked have been when the owners were almost at the point of giving up (one had actually put their dog into kennels for a few days so that they could re-decorate the demolition done by the dog). They rang me while the dog was still in kennels and were not yet decided whether to collect the dog or not. The very first time they tried Jerry's method, it worked. Best of luck, Marilyn Rammell -------------------- "The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The question is not can they REASON, nor can they TALK, but can they SUFFER?" - - Jeremy Bentham "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - - C.S. Lewis. "Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon. "If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." Chief Dan George All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer "Thank you for fighting the fine fight-- even tho it's a hopeless task, in this system of things. As long as man is ruling man, there will be animals (and humans!) abused and neglected. Your student," Juanita. "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow," John Wayne. ANY QUESTIONS, People? "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad." - ~Aldous Huxley. "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!" "Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain!" -Friedrich Schiller. INDEEDY. AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE! In Love And Light, I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours, The WORLD'S CRUELEST Trainer, Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply A-M-A-Z-I-N-G M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C G-R-A-N-D M-A-S-T-E-R Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Director of Research, Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory, BIOSOUND Scientific, Director of Training, Wits' End Dog Training 1611 24th St Orlando, FL 32805 Phone: 1-407-425-5092 (Call ANY TIME) http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard E-mail: Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory @HotMail.Com Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory @HotMail.Com TheAmazingPuppyWizard @Mail.Com The_800_Pound_Gorilla_In_The_Room @HotMail.Com

Weak nerves caused by dog trainers. Now we really know you are full of SHITE.

HOWEDY davidn3, [quote=davidn3]I also was kind of looking at the e-collar. My 9 month old bullmastiff pup likes to test me, which I think is normal.[/quote] NO, that AIN'T "NORMAL", davidn3. Dogs "challenge" their owners or other dogs ONLY when they're AFRAID. The entire alphalpha duminance THEORY is SHEER IDIOCY. [quote=davidn3] But the problem sometimes is when he doesn't have his prong collar or lead on.[/quote] You mean, when he AIN'T AFRAID of you HURTIN him? [quote=davidn3] For example -- If he happens to have something I don't want him to have and I tell him to drop it -- If he has his prong collar on he will, but if not he will want to test me and try to play keep away.[/quote] You COULD TRAIN HIM to COME EVERY TIME and DROP or BRING YOU ANY THING on your 1st request, IF YOU KNEW HOWE. LIKE THIS: Hi, Jerry. I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit more). For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even if that was the only method that would work, I'd live with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho'). Best, ben [quote=davidn3] I don't let him win,[/quote] HOWE do you suppHOWES THAT might effect his PROTECTION TRAININ, davidn3? Of curse, you may not be interested in protection trainin, but that's not all "not letting him win" will effect. Don't you want a CONFIDENT dog, a dog who AIN'T AFRAID of NUTHIN? ALL temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. If you want to see some EXXXAMPLES of this, just visit cesar millan's website. There you'll find a HUGE preponderance of dogs who FEAR THUNDE, have separation anxiety, and are HYPERACTIVE as a DIRECT RESULT of alphalpha duminance THEORY trainin. IN FACT, a recent recipient of cesar's LIFE SAVING methods, an English Bulldog named Butch DIED of a heart attack from constantly "challenging" and being alphalpha rolled as the ces instructed. I'll post a link to the video and my reviews of his "LIFE SAVING TECHNIQUES": cesar's way: RIP Butch: http://tinyurl.com/56za72 [quote=davidn3]I eventually get a hold of him and put his prong collar on. At that time he is an angel because he knows he is in trouble. We will go through a series of commands until he is listening to everything I say.[/quote] Your PUPPY is goin through the so called "adolescent rebelliHOWES stage" identified by Scott & Fuller as a developmental period at 8-9 months of age. HOWEver, what Scott & Fuller DIDN'T REALIZE, is, that the 'adolescent rebelliHOWES STAGE' DOESN'T HAPPEN if the dog AIN'T BEING CHALLENGED. These developmental stages occur again at 18-24 months and five years of age, which coincidentally COINcide with the ages many dogs are MURDERED for TURNING on their owners. [quote=davidn3]Would this type of situation be a time for the e-collar? or should I just keep being persistent and not let him get away with that kind of stuff?[/quote] No, you should FORGET EVERY THING you've been TAUGHT by the self-professed dog trainers who jerk choke bribe crate shock and intimidate innocent defenseless dumb critters and are AFRAID to DEFEND THEMSELVES when THEY'RE CHALLENGED by the SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR. "The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The question is not can they REASON, nor can they TALK, but can they SUFFER?" - - Jeremy Bentham "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - - C.S. Lewis. "Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon. The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior Never Change, Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results For All Handler's And All Critters, And ALL Behaviors In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES, ALL OVER The Whole Wild World, NEARLY INSTANTLY, As Taught In Your Own FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply A-M-A-Z-I-N-G M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C G-R-A-N-D M-A-S-T-E-R Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL ***FREE*** WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat, Goat, Ferret, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Training Method Manual All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer "Thank you for fighting the fine fight-- even tho it's a hopeless task, in this system of things. As long as man is ruling man, there will be animals (and humans!) abused and neglected. :-( Your student," Juanita. "If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow," John Wayne. "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!" "Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain!" -Friedrich Schiller. INDEEDY. AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE! In Love And Light, I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours, The World's CRUELEST Trainer Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply A-M-A-Z-I-N-G *M-A-J-E-S-T-I-C* *G-R-A-N-D* *M-A-S-T-E-R* Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Ferret, Goat, Monkey SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Director of Research, Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory, BIOSOUND Scientific, Director of Training, Wits' End Dog Training 1611 24th St Orlando, FL 32805 Phone: 1-407-425-5092 (Call ANY TIME) http://www.freewebs.com/thesimplyamazingpuppywizard E-mail: Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory @HotMail.Com Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory @HotMail.Com TheAmazingPuppyWizard @Mail.Com ANY QUESTIONS, People? ,-._,-, V)"(V (_o_) Have a great day! / V) (l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. oo-oo

Hey Des, I wasn't really following the thread, and I can't read the rants from the fellow who keeps switching names, because anyone who comes on and starts "yelling" so to speak, just doesn't rock my boat. There are many different ways to train, just as there are many different temperments. We own 2 Prea's and 1 LGD, and her temperment is so different. We tried a shock collor on her, but it didn't work well, and I would not go back to it. I have learn with her, that when she barks there is usually a reason for it, at least in her mind. I will acknowlege her, and tell her that it is ok, and investigate what she is alerting me to. This is usually enough for her to stop. If it is something that disturbs her more she will continue until the disturbance is gone. We live in a neighborhood that the houses are not very close together, but not in a rural setting yet. She is still a puppy, and still learning, so I am very tolerate as I know there is a maturing she still needs to go through, and this will go on until she is about 2 (the same for your CO I believe). About the alpha issue that the person was ranting about...I do have an issue with that. There are certain breeds that will try to be alpha in the household, not because they are fear driven, but because it is in their nature. The LGD's are one of the breed types that are like this, it is what they are bred for. They will try for dominance within their pack, and unless you are firm (not agressive and hard, but firm and in the alpha role- you can never reprimand in a heavy handed way- at least not with the ASD's - I have learned this from first hand experience) they will become the dominant member of the pack and walk all over you. These dogs may become aggressive and not mind their owners, and they are the ones that end up being placed in shelters or euthenized. I do not know if any of this helped, as I do not own CO's, but LGD's are very similiar in nature, and as your CO matures he will change and settle down. Virginia

HOWEDY chemivir, You mean, YOU GOT THE SAME PROBLEM? SHAAAZZZAAAMMM~!~!~! Oh, a word of ADVICE, chemivir: dogs don't stop goin through their developmental stages where they have DOMINANCE CHALLENGES till they're five years of age. SO PACK A LUNCH~! TPW [quote=chemivlr]Hey Des, I wasn't really following the thread, and I can't read the rants from the fellow who keeps switching names, because anyone who comes on and starts "yelling" so to speak, just doesn't rock my boat. There are many different ways to train, just as there are many different temperments. We own 2 Prea's and 1 LGD, and her temperment is so different. We tried a shock collor on her, but it didn't work well, and I would not go back to it. I have learn with her, that when she barks there is usually a reason for it, at least in her mind. I will acknowlege her, and tell her that it is ok, and investigate what she is alerting me to. This is usually enough for her to stop. If it is something that disturbs her more she will continue until the disturbance is gone. We live in a neighborhood that the houses are not very close together, but not in a rural setting yet. She is still a puppy, and still learning, so I am very tolerate as I know there is a maturing she still needs to go through, and this will go on until she is about 2 (the same for your CO I believe). About the alpha issue that the person was ranting about...I do have an issue with that. There are certain breeds that will try to be alpha in the household, not because they are fear driven, but because it is in their nature. The LGD's are one of the breed types that are like this, it is what they are bred for. They will try for dominance within their pack, and unless you are firm (not agressive and hard, but firm and in the alpha role- you can never reprimand in a heavy handed way- at least not with the ASD's - I have learned this from first hand experience) they will become the dominant member of the pack and walk all over you. These dogs may become aggressive and not mind their owners, and they are the ones that end up being placed in shelters or euthenized. I do not know if any of this helped, as I do not own CO's, but LGD's are very similiar in nature, and as your CO matures he will change and settle down. Virginia[/quote]

Actually TPW no I don't have a dominance issue problem, thank you. If you really want to know my husband and I thought we had a food aggression issue with her and through talking with other ASD owners I learned that our correction methods were not the right ones for her breed. We also learned that her "food agression" wasn't food agression but being removed from her mother at too young of an age, and not having a mother's correction during her formative development. I now correct her as a mother dog would, and this works perfectly for her...and she has no dominance issues with me, nor does my male Presa. I also never had a problem working with Thoroughbred racehorses, nor any other animal that I have ever owned or worked with, thank you very much, Then again I try to observe the state of animal and also to know that I am in command. I truly do thank you for your insight into my problems with my dogs....it really helps so much when people come one yelling and and then trying to make others feel like complete idiots. One of the reasons I truly like this sight is that 80 to 90 % of the members here try to teach and are respectful of the other members, even if someone says something or does something completely off the wall. The best way to teach is to gently lead and guide, not to pound and try to make others feel less. Have a blessed evening, Virginia

HOWEDY 4myneo, [quote=4myneo] "Weak nerves caused by dog trainers". [/quote] Yeah. And I can PROVE IT, to boot! [quote=4myneo]Now we really know you are full of SHITE.[/quote] Yeah? Do you suppHOWES it was a WEAK NERVED Neo who CRIED an took away my thread on temperament and behavior problems bein CAUSED BY MISHANDLING or do you suppHOWES it was the WEAK NERVED TRAINERS who COULDN'T DEFEND THEMSELVES so they RAN TO THEIR MOMMYS and TOOK ALL THE EVIDENCE with them, 4myneo? AND THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard goes: "BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAAA~!~!~!" LIKE THIS: BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!-~! SEE? BWEEEAAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

[color=red][size=24]Administrators[/size][/color], Get this waste of time, space and membership off the site already, ... Seriously.. I can't believe you all are allowing this nonsensical jibberish, these rants and personal attacks, and especially the bringing of peoples mothers in to conversations/attacks as a way of bashing to continuously go on... This would NOT have flown but 1 yr ago... and now it is in every corner of every thread on this site... Is there a behind the scenes meaning to this crap being allowed?? Is it to get the numbers up so the site can be sold?? It surely can NOT be to raise the validity and quality of the site. I mean come on people... You are supposed to keep members like him from ATTACKING other members... If it takes banning me to ban him in the name of fairness, and to get this place back to its once former glory, by all means [color=red][size=24]DO IT.....PLEASE!!!! I BEG YOU![/size][/color]... This site is better than what is being allowed to happen on here as of late... At least it once was... who knows, all things never stay the same.. Maybe this place has finally gone down the same road/tube of crap that all the other dog sites have as well... It really is a shame too... I used to be proud to tell people i was part of this site and would set up accounts for friends and send new people here under the umbrella of it being a sane and rational place to gather information, ask questions and see some genuinely beautiful dogs, and talk to PEOPLE from all over the world about their same passion.... DOGS..... Mike

WOW.... Amazingpuppywizard knows so much :roll: We should all bow down to you. You are so right about everything and everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about. I've never hurt my dog and he isn't afraid of me hurting him. He is trying to see what he can and cannot get away with. He has figured out that if he is not on the leash and doesn't have a collar on, he can get away with just a little bit more.

HOWEDY crnosrce1 [quote="crnosrce1"][color=red][size=24]Administrators[/size][/color], Get this waste of time, space and membership off the site already, ... [/quote] Ahhh, so the administrators are your surrogate mommy, eh, mikey a.k.a. crnosrce1? Sounds like you're WHINING. Know what a BALANCED trainer would do for a whiney puppy, mikey? HE'D IGNORE HIIM. OR he'd SPRAY VINEGAR and LEMON JUICE in ITS face or JERK an CHOKE IT on a nice pronged spiked pinch choke collar. OR SHOCK IT. LIKE THIS: "Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K. "Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K. "Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary, just to be able to handle the dogs. For example, we need to crate train a dog immediately because they are usually in need of medical care and they are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. "Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K. "So what? Whoever said that it's right to always not confront? We sure can try, but a dog who knows a command and growls when given it is certainly being confrontational". You can't simply walk away and pretend it didn't happen or leave it for later work in every situation." Lynn K. -------------------- From: Lynn K. (java...@yahoo.com) Subject: Re: Free Feeding (Was Re: Repeating Commands) Date: 2001-07-17 21:59:53 PST dogstar...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote in message ...> For example, if one was to use the dogs regular > kibble as a motivator in class, the dog will probably > not be as motivated as he would be if a different type > of treat was offered (say, a piece of hotdog). Not necessarily. Remember that there is value added to the treat by virtue of getting it from the handler as a reward. That's the reason I handfed Java for a week. To add value to the food. It isn't just another piece of kibble when it comes from Mom as a reward. Lynn K From: Lynn K. (java...@yahoo.com) Subject: Re: Kali gets her CDX! Date: 2003-10-26 13:49:37 PST "KrisHur" wrote in message...> THANKS! You deserve it! You have my empathy on the heeling problem. 2 of 29 qualified in Open A & B this morning at Sacramento - ring fouled overnight by conformation people exercising their dogs. A Borzoi vomited on the spot, a Rottie peed on it, and almost every other dog (including Java) dropped their nose to the spot and started tracking. ARRRGH! Lynn K. ---------------------- SEE? From: Lynn Kosmakos Date: Fri, Nov 3 2000 1:41 am Email: Lynn Kosmakos Lori wrote: > There is no TEMPERMENT too good to ruin OR too bad to save. > The dog's heart & soul become reflex reaction to it's treatment. Lori, I sincerely wish that were true. (the too bad to save part) There is innate temperament that is not shaped by treatment. The dogs our rescue gets from horrible abuse cases quickly proves that. OTOH, I also see dogs that have never had a single triggering incident who cannot be saved. I've got such a client right now, a 9 month old GSD who we've been fighting to save for months. He's been seen by Jean Donaldson and Leslie Nelson and a slew of others, and has received nothing by loving care all his life. His littermates are normal, his breeding excellent, and there was no triggering event or medical cause. As much as it breaks my heart, the dog cannot be saved. Lynn K. ----------------- [quote=crnosrce1]Seriously.. I can't believe you all are allowing this nonsensical jibberish, [/quote] You mean the SCIENCE of puppy whining, mikey? [quote=crnosrce1]these rants and personal attacks,[/quote] I ATTACKED you with QUOTES from Pavlov, Corson, Skinner, et. al. If you think you can DEFEND YOURSELF you're welcome to rebuke the SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION posted below. [quote=crnosrce1]and especially the bringing of peoples mothers in to conversations/attacks as a way of bashing to continuously go on...[/quote] To quote woolfie,:"PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS" so he probably didn't put you up to this. You're makin yourself look like a pansey, mikey. Did platzie put you up to this, mikey? Hey mikey? Didn't I tell you an platzie to run cryin to your mommy an tell her The Amazing Puppy Wizard is PICKIN ON YOU? Well, "GOOD BOY!" [quote=crnosrce1]This would NOT have flown but 1 yr ago...[/quote] It wouldn'ta flown a week ago either, mikey. But WAY BACK then, they didn't KNOW any doGdameneD better. DID THEY. "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. [quote=crnosrce1] and now it is in every corner of every thread on this site...[/quote] Well then SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE that NO WON REPLIED to it: "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives," Leo Tolstoy ----------------------- You care to DEFEND yourself from the SCIENCE, mikey? GO AHEAD, MAKE MY DAY~! [quote=crnosrce1] Is there a behind the scenes meaning to this crap being allowed??[/quote] If you can't defend your TRAINING METHODS HOWE can you give ADVICE, ESPECIALLY ADVICE that GETS DOGS AND HUMANS DEAD, and CAUSES BREED SPECIFIC LEGISLATION, mikey? Think of Diane Whipple and Hanna and Herra and the two lawyers who WENT TO JAIL for 4 years when their TRAINED Cana Corso MURDERED a innocent defenseless lady ONLY on accHOWENTA they was taught to TRY to FORCE a dog that was BIGGER THEN THEM not to attack when IT was AFRAID, INSTEAD of usin EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC Pavlovian and Ericksonian CONditioning, mikey? [quote=crnosrce1]Is it to get the numbers up so the site can be sold?? It surely can NOT be to raise the validity and quality of the site.[/quote] Well then, mikey, all you gotta do is PROVE ME WRONG~! Can't you DEFEND YOUR METHODS, mikey? [quote=crnosrce1] I mean come on people... You are supposed to keep members like him from ATTACKING other members...[/quote] Hey mikey? Didn't your daddy teach you to defend yourself? [quote=crnosrce1]If it takes banning me to ban him[/quote] You mean, and we'd LOSE ALL your VALUABLE INFORMATION, mikey? [quote=crnosrce1] in the name of fairness,[/quote] Banning people and CENSORSHIP AIN'T FAIR, IS IT mikey. It's NAZI TACTICS, mikey. It's the work of a COWARD. Cowards NEVER operate alone, mikey, they NEED a GANG of THUGS like the SS to FIGHT FAIR, mikey. AND they need a FEARLESS LEADER like Hitler *(a DOG LOVER) to PROTECT them. When I was in the US Army we MURDERED people to KEEP THIS COUNTRY FAIR. THAT'S WHAT'S FAIR, mikey. Sez so in the US CONstitution and Bill Of RIGHTS. [quote=crnosrce1] and to get this place back to its once former glory,[/quote] You mean when you could HURT dogs and FEEL GOOD, mikey? LIKE THIS?: Here's two professional trainers: rom: canis55 Date: 1999/09/28 Subject: Dear Marilyn Re. Ness Dear Marilyn, I just visited your updated site. The two Ness pages are great. Freezing the video frames to reveal the emotional impact a leash correction has on a dog was a wonderful idea. Lee Kelley did something similar to a Brian Kilcommon video. The difference is we were focusing on the emotional impact a leash correction has on the trainer. When you do this to a training video you can clearly see the tremendous emotional charge some of these trainers are getting from hurting dogs. It's a strange business, this dog training. I wonder what motivates any of us to engage in it. I'm suspicious of anyone who says they do it because they love dogs. I know a lot of people who claim to love what dogs represent to them, and yet they don't become trainers. I don't think this is because they love something else more. I think there is a difference between loving what dogs represent to us and loving what training them creates in us or even creates in them for that matter. It's a complicated process and perhaps many of us have lost sight of what we're doing. I read books and articles that matter of factly explain how to systematically inflict pain on dogs in an effort to create a desire to perform tasks that I often see dogs performing of their own accord. I know many of these behaviors can be shaped and encouraged to the same degree of reliability without all the violence and pain. Where they can't (if that's the case), I wonder why we think a dog should perform a task that is so repugnant to its nature, that we must resort to violence and coercion to compel them to participate. Maybe I have far too much respect for dogs, but when I read this stuff it sounds like slavery and involuntary servitude to me. I can't see much difference between what we're doing to them (for their own good) and what my country men did to the African peoples for nearly half a century. It's hard for me to accept that I'm surrounded by so much madness, but I have to go with my heart on this one. Most of what we demand from dogs--if not all of it--will be offered willingly and enthusiastically if we only learn how to request it in a manner they can comprehend. If it turns out that I have to attack a dog to get it to do or to not do something, then maybe the dog isn't supposed to do what I think it should. The whole thing's so complicated that I can't really express it. I just know I don't like some of the stuff I'm seeing or reading about. -- I trains'em as I sees'em. --------------------- [quote="crnosrce1"]by all means [color=red][size=24]DO IT.....PLEASE!!!! I BEG YOU![/size][/color]... I LOVE it when you beg, mikey~! Ooops~! My koehler book sez I gotta SCRUFF SHAKE you for doin that. [quote=crnosrce1]This site is better than what is being allowed to happen on here as of late... At least it once was... who knows, all things never stay the same..[/quote] Sometimes CHANGE is for the better. Sometimes it AIN'T. Hitler did a lotta WONderful things, wouldn't you AGREE, mikey? Was Hitler a GOOD CHANGE or a BAD CHANGE, mikey? Did you agree with him BURNING BOOKS he DISAGREED with, mikey? [quote=crnosrce1]Maybe this place has finally gone down the same road/tube of crap that all the other dog sites have as well... It really is a shame too... I used to be proud to tell people i was part of this site and would set up accounts for friends and send new people here under the umbrella of it being a sane and rational place to gather information, ask questions and see some genuinely beautiful dogs, and talk to PEOPLE from all over the world about their same passion.... DOGS.....[/quote] You mean, like MURDERIN dogs who attack their PASSIONATE ABUSER for JERKIN an CHOKIN THEM?? LIKE THIS?: Deezmutha Rookie Rescued a Boerboel X, dont know his whole history however. He is at most a year old. Previous owners obviously did not allow him to experience much, nor socialize...they had him on an apt. balcony. He is extremely dog aggressive and also on occasion will growl at passersby. Im using a prong and using distractions along with food rewards. Its coming along slowly. A few weeks ago tho we encountered another dog. Corrections, focus, food reward all ready, he wouldnt break his determination with getting at the other dog. I kept moving, talking, correcting and he ended up working his way up the leash to my arm...OUCH! This week, same thing, was easier to get his focus back to me, but as I pulled him forward to gain attention and correct more severe he bit my stomach....double OUCH! Any suggestions or comments regarding experiences with this breed? Much appreciated. - PS: I also dont allow Nino to "think" that biting me ok. I may be little but I pack quite a wallop. The correction matches the screw up. His behaviour is completely unacceptable ----------------- Dragonmark Major PTS....there are way to many healthy, good tempered dogs that need homes to waste time on a dog that bites the hand that feeds him. I mean no disrepect but a dog that shows aggression to me me gets one free. After that if it does it again it gets put to sleep I know this is not a popular idea but F that. I will be damned if I feed a dog that will turn on me for ANY reason! aa -------------- Platz General This may or may not be a dog that can be saved hard to say without seeing the dog and then you two as a team. I'd tell you to stay objective. Do not let foolish human pride cloud your judgement. Sometimes the damage is too much to fix or fix well enough that the dog can be trustworthly are people with out the handler present. The breeding itself could have resulted in a dog that can't ever be safe in modern society. That said I would also tell you that dogs with more severe behavior problems have been rehabed. Best of Luck ------------- Deezmutha Posted: 2007-11-03, 16:42:47 We are all entitled to our opinions...right or wrong. Being a supporter for the underdog I will continue teaching Nino the things he should know. Ive had him for maybe 3 months, and yes I have work to do ...and I will do it. Man I couldnt imagine putting him down after only beginning to reteach/undo what his previous owners failed to do in the first place....kinda knee jerk of a reaction no? My Corso was epileptic, had seizures, on meds, but had I given up and euthanized him right outta the gate I never would have come to know him as the best damn dog Ive had, protection, working, and everything else I asked of him. Never bit me once...not even during a seizure. Sorry guys I look at these creatures not as disposable, but as integral pieces of my pie. If and when it gets outta hand...its not yet...then I'll consider putting him down. Until then I will work his & my ass off until Im happy with the end result. to answer Dragonmarks question regarding correction for ripping my face or arm of thats a no brainer...euthanasia. I seriously dont think its gunna get to that point, but thanks for the concern... ------------- Dragonmark Major God bless you and good luck ---------------- lotsofdogs2 Rookie I put my Boerboel down at 2yrs old. He was always dog aggressive. Prong, tree, backtie. Taught him some restraint around other dogs. He was fear aggressive and after the 2nd time he hit my kid with an open mouth and a growl, it was over. He's biting you to vent his frustration at not being able to get to the other dog. If you're going to try and save him you have to get control QUICKLY when he starts to react to another dog before he gets so worked up. Dog aggression is a serious problem in that breed. A Boerboel in fight drive has the pain tolerance of a telephone pole. Good Luck, Jennifer ------------- Xamen 13, You don't know what I did before I made the decision to put my dog down. Just so you're informed. I had a Canine Behaviorial Therapist in my home weekly for four months at a rate of $100.00 a week and private obedience training. Secondly, after professional eval and multiple vet examinations, on the recommendation of both of them six months prior I then put him down. Rehoming wasn't an option because he didn't give alot of warning before striking and VERY few people can handle a dog like that. (most are like you and think they all can be saved) I gave my dog every opportunity financially and humanly possible before I chose euthanasia. You don't know me so don't pass judgement on me again please. You have a right to disagree with my advice but, you don't have the right to insinuate that I am somehow less qualified or somehow negligent because of my decision. There ARE situations when euthanasia is best. Jennifer ================= [quote="crnosrce1"][/quote] SO MUCH FOR YOUR "PASSION", mikey Date 4/4/08 HOWEDY Dragonmark, [quote=Dragonmark]This will seem really mean to say but what is the correction for the dog ripping your arm or face or .....worse?[/quote] I always PRAISE them for it. That ALWAYS disarms the aggression. This dog is experiencing "REDIRECTED AGGRESSION" because he's being HURT and RESTRAINED in front of a dog he fears. It's a PERFECTLY NORMAL, NATURAL, INNATE, REFLEXIVE behavior. EFFECTIVE DOG TRAININ METHODS AIN'T LUCK; IT'S SCIENCE AT ITS BEAST. Here's the SCIENCE: Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of Doggies. B.F. Skinner: Re-evaluation of Punishment Punishment, unfortunately traditionally overused, actually has been proven not effective at long- term behavioral change, and creatures will find other ways of getting what it wants. In "Freedom and the control of men" American Scholar, Winter 1955-56, 25, 47-65. 1956 he states: If we no longer resort to torture in what we call the civilized world, we nevertheless still make extensive use of punitive techniques in both domestic and foreign relations. And apparently for good reasons. Nature if not God has created man in such a way that he can be controlled punitively. People quickly become skillful punishers (if not, thereby, skillful controllers), whereas alternative positive measures are not easily learned. The need for punishment seems to have the support of history, and alternative practices threaten the cherished values of freedom and dignity. Fear involved with punishment causes frustration: with typical results loathing, hostility and apathy. Skinner's teaching on the superiority of posittive reinforcement's benefits for keeping desired behavior have proved very valuable. ---------------------------- In the followin SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STUDY, you may substitute pronged spiked pinch or slip choke collars for shock and add PUNISHMENT, SCOLDING, CRATING, and witholding rewards, attention, and affection: Psychological Effects At issue is the question, --Do electronic training devices elicit psychological responses? "This section cites several research studies in which the psychological impact of the use of electronic training devices was analyzed. It is difficult, at best, for anyone to determine the full psychological effect of these devices or training methods until we can agree on exactly what constitutes a stress signal in a domestic dog. Not only do none of the researchers agree on what it is, but it varies from dog to dog. It is even more difficult for humans to determine the full effect of shock on a dog (or any animal) due to the animal's hard-wired need to hide pain in order to survive in the wild Training dogs with the help of the shock collar: Short and long term behavioral effects. (Schilder, M. & van der Borga, J. (2004). Applied Animal Behavior Science, 85, 319-334). The goal of this study was to determine the behavioral changes in dogs during training using electronic training collars. Thirty-two dogs were divided into two groups, each receiving both general obedience and protection training. One group was trained with shock collars and the other group without shock collars. The dogs trained with the shock collars displayed signs of stress: lowering of body posture, high-pitched yelps, barks and squeals, avoidance, redirected aggression, and tongue flicking. It was also noted by the authors that, even during play and relaxed walking, the group of dogs trained with shock collars continued to show signs of stress while in the company of their handler. The authors concluded that shock-collar training is stressful; receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs; and the shock group of dogs evidently learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announced the reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. They suggest that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owners. This study has come under considerable fire because the experience of the handlers and dogs is not clear, and the level of shock is not stated. With that said, it does suggest that dogs are stressed by the experience of being shocked during training. --------------------- "Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected reward not received is experienced as a punishment and can produce extensive and persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)." IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov: "Motivation Of The Resistance To Coercion "-- PAVLOV "Reflexes of purpose and freedom" in the comparative physiology of higher nervous activity, Institute of Higher Nervous Activity and Neurophysiology, Academy of Sciences, Moscow: The most complex unconditioned "reflexes of aim and freedom," discovered by I.P. Pavlov, are compared with the "competence drive" and the "motivation of the resistance to coercion," respectively, described by contemporary ethologists. On the basis of the unconditioned "reflex of purpose," conditioned reflexes were developed in which positive emotions arising in connection with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement. The unconditioned "reflex of freedom" is regarded as a phylogenetic precursor of the will, and its acute extinction as the physiological mechanism of hypnosis. It was demonstrated experimentally that the appearance of the state of "animal hypnosis" (immobilization catatonia) in rabbits is accompanied by the predominance of electrical activity and heat production in the right hemisphere, i.e., by symptoms which are found in hypnosis in man. Simonov PV Publication Types:

• Review
• Review, tutorial

PMID: 2215892, UI: 91015681 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2215892&am p;form=6&db=m&Dopt=bNeurosciBehavPhysiol1990May-Jun; 20(3):230-5 "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov "All animals learn best through play," Lorenz. "The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al (1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment procedure developing imitative speech in two severly disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty- six days the boys are reported to have been learning new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning immediately deteriorated. Programs utilizing the "contingencies of reinforcement model" proposed by Skinner (1963) are no more well established in research than the various dynamic therapists." Research in four areas : 1) direct evaluation of programmed systems for learning; 2) reinforcement; 3) cognitive dissonance; and 4) motivation, MOST SURELY DEMOLISH the claims of operant programers." "It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in deviant behavior of children can be achieved through brief, simple educative routines with their mothers which modify the mother's social behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the need for child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965). A large number of cases improved sufficiently after preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment of children was required, and almost ALL cases SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy. Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)." A. S. Neill, The Famous Founder of The Summerhill School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK! The Embry Study: "While some may find it strange that reprimands might increase the chances of a child going into the street, the literature on the experimental analysis of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of more inappropriate behavior. Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason with their children about dashing into the street will likely to have the opposite impact. Reprimands do not punish unsafe behavior; they reward it." Source: "Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis in the Natural Environment. Research Report Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project." Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME B.S. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400 You might improve the learning of folk who actually live with and train dogs to do useful things if you excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists. I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland. This married pair of psychologists began the long trail of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum! The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand the personal history of the particular animal, and the history of this animal's species and group, the developmental history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal. Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking, you aren't going to have much success. A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original primitive eflex occurs no matter what the history of the animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond, say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell. Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the animal takes action and uses an instrument. The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator, Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology went haring after phantasmagora. The major theorists for the development of the language of operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major role in the development of American psychology. They proposed that learning is the result of the application of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.) Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g., an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant" because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that follows the response that influences whether the response is likely or unlikely to occur again. It is through operant conditioning that voluntary responses are learned. One should note that Russian Psychology did very well without the operant language, and only pettifogging university professors ought to worry about what kind of label we attach to the learning. Pfui! Even Skinner understood this! And please note if you saw the original movie, THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX THERAPY. Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat the fish and not the pretty girl?" George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. Who's Who Honoree since 1983 George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine you may find my resume in Who's Who in Science and Technology I have been listed in Who's Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books, Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date. These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and you can't get yourself into them. -------------------- Why Do You Reward The Dog For Being Bad? Was: Punish Dogs Children SP-HOWESESWith PRAISE, Unconditional LOVE, TRUST, And RESPECT Always praise the dog to show him that you affectionally support or love him. Praising the dog has nothing to do with what he has just done, it has to do with your relationship with him. "Good dog" means "I love you, dog". If the dog is anxious, then you make certain that he knows that he is in a safe and trusting environment. You praise and admire him. Correction is the opposite signal, you are my enemy, and this results, quite naturally, in the dog behaving aggresively - why not, you've declared that you are his enemy. Why does paradoxical reward work? The dog defecates on the floor. You come up and say "Good Dog" you love and praise him. THE DOG KNOWS YOU LOVE HIM. The dog defecates on the floor because he is anxious. No wild wolf, jackal, or coyote defecates in his den. If he defecates in his den its because a bear is outside trying to get in and eat him. The dog knows that it is stupid to defecate where he eats or sleeps. Don't you? If the dog feels safe he'll behave as if he is safe, no pooping on the living room floor. Almost all maladaptive behavior is due to fear, anxiety, expectation of disaster. Correct the situation, and the dog behaves fluently like a ..... Dog! Punishment deranges behavior, it is never never never appropriate. Love the dog. Praise is never punishment, praise is like giving a piece of steak. If you give a piece of steak to a dog after he defecates on the floor he'll stop defecating on the floor. Fondly, Dr. Von ---------------- Here's an SAR trainer of twenty years EXXXPERIENCE: From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca) Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard? Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST > > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. > > Mike > Ok Mike which part worked for you? It helped clear problems from my dogs in the field using the can penny distraction technique. Works like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team Leader. Sorry that slipped my mind. I have read volumes of training books and don't know where people get that Jerry copied others work as I have NEVER come across his methods before. I would like to see proof. Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train out the problems leaving what you want left over. Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems as the other didn't need correcting for some of his habits after I cleared it from the first dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis. Nice side benefit there. It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party trainer as they were not performing well. The VAST majority of working dog trainers are agressive in their actions with the dogs. I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I was at my "Whits End" then someone I new turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history. I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual and all have had great results. Starting puppies out on the distraction technique is especially good because they never develop the habit. I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened in all my days. Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple. Mike ------------- Here's a professional dog trainer of thirty years experience: From: BNTDO...@aol.com To: jho...@bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: Update Hi Jerry, Just an update to let you know how things are going. Hunter is doing really great thanks to you and your training manual. I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get him re-evaluated for aggression. all weekend long I had kids run by the fence to try and make him bark. He didn't! Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his dog aggression but even that is going good for him. I have less and less of a problem with him in my vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect it from the four wheeled monsters that go by. I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when we go down the road and he won't try to jump out at the cars that go by. I have shared the manual with several dog owners that I know and even a group of dog trainers. Thank you again. Kay From: "Jerry Howe" To: Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Update Have your vet call me if he's interested in behavior. XXX/OOO. Jerry. --------------- From: BNTDO...@aol.com To: jho...@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized." Dear Jerry, It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that maligning you and your training manual but tell them from me that it does work. Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated putting him down are impressed with him. I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could do his nails. All 4 feet. My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more pleased. He even tried to kiss a child the other day. Major break through. This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield. So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training is Do No Harm. The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule. Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my side where he belongs. Thank you so much. Kay ----------------- From: To jho...@bellsouth.net (The Puppy Wizard) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:07:52 -0000 Subject: "Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All Tainers Who Call Themselves Trainers," Kay Pierce. From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Wits end Training Jerry, I started Hunter on his training using your manual and training method. What a marked difference in just a few hours. I had him in my van and just using the sound with his remote trainer and telling him he's a good dog when he started looking like he was going to bark at a car worked great. He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him to a spot that we had used years ago to train, Jerry I have hope that I can have my happy dog back soon. And not this tense unhappy creature I live with now. He was so happy today. I am looking forward to getting the machine so that he can stay that way. Thank you, Kay Pierce ------------------- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: Making Progress Hello Jerry, Hunter and I started working the recall and family pack exercise today. On leash and in the house he has a perfect recall. And I think he really started to relax and enjoy himself I swear he was laughing. I had taught him to go to the heel position when he comes to me years ago. And over the past few months I have had to tell him to go there. Today he flew into the heel position each and every time without me saying a word to him about it. He has never bounced like that before. I trained him using conventional methods with a choker and pinch collar. Over the past few days we have been using his regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it more. As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer and when I trained my latest dog I used all positive reinforcements techniques. When I trained for that I had been amazed at the results. Your method takes positive training to the next level and should really be used by all trainers who call themselves trainers. My Hunter is concentrating on me and not on the treat he thinks he wants. My other dog wants treats before she'll do anything. As soon as I get Hunter straightened out she's next. Thank you so much, Kay Pierce ------------------ From: To: Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM Subject: Head Hunter Dear Jerry, Just thought I would write to let you know how well Hunter is doing. He had been trained using the conventional methods for obedience. He had gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar. Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around. I had also tried using positive reinforcement methods that I had been trained in. He was so busy looking for the treat that he didn't really want to work. So I went back to using the pinch collar on him and also a gentle leader when we were in public. Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and he did deserve his reputation as a vicious dog. The vet had recommended that he be put down. I was in a panic when I found your web site. Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first started out with 5 years ago. I am a professional trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs don't respond to any kind of training and that a vicious dog can never be trusted again. I disagree! Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him with me and he doesn't chase cars as much anymore which is one of his main problems. We are working on the dog aggression thing. And I am confident that will be successful too. I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that too is working good. I know of several rescue groups that would benefit from it. This is rather long I know but it comes from the heart. My Head Hunter Green and I have together along time and have been through so much together. Thank you for helping me save his life. Kay Pierce -------------------- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM Subject: Jerry the jerk howe Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either his way or your wrong no matter what training method you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the post. He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I would pay him a visit. He used your post from July in his rebuttal Bob Garrett From: BNTDO...@aol.com To: Caninesanctu...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk. I am a dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years. I believe strongly in positive reinforcement. My youngest was trained using treats and praise. My oldest how ever was not trained that way I am ashamed to say. The result a very dangerous dog. He has problems with barrier and dominance aggression. A year ago he put a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal. When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well. You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the phone and consulted him about his training methods. I really grilled him before I even considered using his methods. He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls. When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone. I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to take him to iffy places. But hey, I know he is now a sugar. And the most important thing he is happy again. It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I have mine. Sincerely Kay --------------------- To: Jerry Howe Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:37 PM Subject: Re: dog aggression - Today Seemed Like A Miracle - WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING! Sunshine is still acting like a new dog! Saw a dog today and "good boy-" worked along with calling him- came the first time every time. Not even a sound out of him. Think it is hard for him but he never even seemed to think about going off-reacting. I would love to write a testimonial but can not seem to find the site--please send the address-- The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End. I had been working for 18 months! Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes from anywhere with the command- "comegoodboy" Next I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the can sound and he looked at me like uhn? I used it three more times and we got to the other dog- -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked on by. When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at me like "you must be out of your mind" The results can make a believer!!! Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader in a busy shopping area with many dogs. He just seemed to not notice any one. When people talked to him or ask his name he would look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him. I still can not believe the change in him- -we can now enjoy life out in public. If I had not found the Wits End method I know there was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me. The word come has no affect on him just the phrase- -Sunshine come goodboy. -------------------------------- "Linda" Hello Jerry, A client of mine asked to say a 'big thank you' to you. They have a 8 month spaniel that they were about to get rid of. In fact they had put her into kennels for a few day while they 'thought it through'. They rang me the day before they were due to collect her. She had wrecked their home - everytime they left her she destroyed something else. The walls, the cabinets, the carpets, table legs, chair legs, - anything and everything. They collected her and brought her to me. I gave them some routine training exercises, and also I wrote out your advice (I will say at this point that I was not sure about it at all, and felt a little embarrassed - it was the advice about the 'toy dog that gets the praise for not making a mess'. Anyway, this was 11 days ago and I heard nothing. Yesterday they turned up at the new Monday evening class. They were absolutely delighted. They told me that after just one attempt, (your toy suggestion) she 'stopped all the destruction'. They were in tear of happiness while telling me. Thank you Jerry. Respectfully, Marilyn ---------------- From: Marilyn Rammell (marilynramm...@hotmail.com) Subject: Re: Separation anxiety (?) help needed! Date: 1999/10/13 Hi Steve, Just want to second Jerry's method for dealing with this - I've suggested it to quite a few clients now and it's worked 'every' time. It sounds a little 'amusing' I agree, but it really works. Two of the occasions it's worked have been when the owners were almost at the point of giving up (one had actually put their dog into kennels for a few days so that they could re-decorate the demolition done by the dog). They rang me while the dog was still in kennels and were not yet decided whether to collect the dog or not. The very first time they tried Jerry's method, it worked. Best of luck, Marilyn Rammell -------------------- Here's what Dr. Larry Male and a couple NYC veterinarians sez abHOWET Pavlovian conditioning distraction and praise techniques: A Professor and a Veterinarian compliment Dr. Miller Correspondence from two professionals in field of canine studies... Dear Dr. Miller: Sometime ago you sent me a complimentary copy of your book "The Secret of Canine Communication." This book has been used extensively in the School of Veterinary Medicine both by the faculty and the student body. They have found this a very useful text and have had much benefit from the opportunity to review the fine work which you have done. I do appreciate your kindness in sending me this book. I will see that it is placed in our Veterinary Medical Library for the full use of the faculty and the student body of the school. I am sure that many of the students will be interested in placing order for copies of this book as they engage in the practice of canine medicine. Sincerely, Wm. E. Jennings, Professor Auburn University School of Veterinary Medicine -o- Dear Dr. Miller: The following review has been submitted to New York City Veterinarian and should be published in due course, at the discretion of the Executive Editor: ********** This is the unique training manual based upon subliminal suggestion by means of a special chain that is so constructed that when it is shaken or thrown it takes advantage of certain harmonic attributions of the dog, and training takes place without leash restraint by means of applying fundamental principles of conditioned reflex psychology. Apparent dramatic results have been obtained with this approach to training, and it seems to render more conventional approaches obsolete. The reader who seeks a practical and thorough lesson in applied canine psychology can learn a great deal from the careful perusal of this popularly written manual. ********** So there you are. I trust it may be helpful to you. Respectfully yours, A. Barton, D.V.M. Book Editor New York City Veterinarian -------------- From Dr. Miller's website: Dr. Larry Male (a.k.a. TooCool) ruminates on Dog Behavior and Dog Training LONG PRYOR to studyin the Wits' End Training Method: Dr. Larry Male, Engineer, Scientist and Mathematician, writes to Dr. Miller about his dog Duke, the importance of DOG-MASTER®, and his opinion on other dog "training" methods. Dear Dr. Miller, It was such a pleasure for me to talk with you on the phone this morning. I never did see your television appearances although they were well within my era. I think that I am perhaps 15 years your junior. I wish I had seen them though. It was a little ad in Dog Fancy, I think, that I initially responded to back in 1992. I remember that the wording seemed to be a bit like a snake oil salesman, e.g., miraculous, magic learning sound etc. But at that time, I was investigating different dog training techniques and I could easily afford a stamp to find out. But when I received your literature, I immediately grasped that this was important and scientific. I already had my Golden when I received my DOG MASTER kit and he was perhaps 2 years old at the time. I had tried my best to train him, using the choke chain dog training class once a week. Oh, I should mention that I am currently a software engineer, but I have a master's in zoology and a doctorate in mathematics and biometrics. Anyway, when I received your DOG MASTER System book I was capable of understanding the magnitude of your accomplishment. I had such a great and immediate success that I dropped out of the dog training class. For 9 more years my Duke continued to learn more and more and more. He loved to learn and to show off what he had learned. People were so amazed at his behavior that they could not believe it. He responded to complex commands, within sentences spoken in a normal tone of voice. To those watching, he must have seemed almost

Holy crap- one too many sheets of acid and this is what you end up like. Show your children this man's posts as a warning against drugs.