I have seen people crop dogs that were years old and the dog came out healthy and ok but it can be risky.The older the dog the greater the chance of excessive beeding some vets wont crop after 3-4 months
how old is too old to crop a dogs ears? i heard about a laser surgery that supposedly you can crop the dogs ears and its much better and painless etc. I always wanted to crop my dogs ears, I would like to do so if possible but not if its going to cause him a lot of pain.
I have seen people crop dogs that were years old and the dog came out healthy and ok but it can be risky.The older the dog the greater the chance of excessive beeding some vets wont crop after 3-4 months
Depends on the Vet cropping but 8 wks -6 mths is average.
I know of breeders who will have them cropped as early as 1-2 wks...But if you are taking them into a facility you are risking the chance on picking up something that may infect the pups!
Again its best to check with your Vet. because it is up to them, and some have no issues with cropping an adult.
"the risk of infection so close to the dogs brain can be very risky."
Are you serious?
Ever heard of the circulatory system or the blood brain barrier? If an infection was to occur, it would migrate through the circulatory system and become systemic LONG before it would work into the nervous system or the brain.
[quote1299777843=LeeRobinson]
"the risk of infection so close to the dogs brain can be very risky."
Are you serious?
Ever heard of the circulatory system or the blood brain barrier? If an infection was to occur, it would migrate through the circulatory system and become systemic LONG before it would work into the nervous system or the brain.
[/quote1299777843]
Yes, I am serious. I know how the circulatory system works. I also know that I have personally heard douche bag vets use that very excuse as a reason not to crop an older dog. The vast majority of the public will swallow any pill that a person of authority, in this case animal medicine, will provide them with.
Knock it off guys. Lee, drop the condescending tone. Provide information without belittling people. Not everyone is well schooled in physiology and there are a lot of "stories" being used as excuses.
It is all about finding a Vet who is willing. I would not perform a long crop on an older dog, less of a chance of it standing and a lot of aftercare/bracing. A short crop should have no problem. Pain is pain, regardless of technique and can be managed with proper anesthesia and analgesia.
I have heard good things about the Laser procedures, shorter heal time, less sutures, less scarring, but it is expensive.
Personally, I prefer the LGD method. Fast healing, no pain memory, no anesthesia risks.
Igmuska,
Sorry, but it blows my mind some of the stuff people come up with despite the contradiction to not only understanding physiology but also contradicting common sense.
We don't get brain infections when we get cuts on our heads. Maybe I am just not good on message boards...no argument there...but sorry...I just think the truth is more important than popularity.
So my next question is why dont people crop as early as possible? Is it because its hard to shape it when the ears are too small? Common sense would be to crop ear and dock tail at the same time...ofcourse depending on the breed =/
I prefer to dock ears around 6-10 weeks. Prior to that, they are hard to shape. Later than that they are hard to get to stand up on SOME dogs. If a dog has a "semi-erect" ear, then you can often crop much later with good success.
what do you think? are they more or less likely to get infections when their ears are cropped? I use pine bedding in their dog houses.[br][link={e_FILE}public/1299819348_16400_FT78475_janeandrambo_063.jpg][img:width=500&height=667]{e_FILE}public/1299819348_16400_FT78475_janeandrambo_063_.jpg">[/link][br][br][img:width=453&height=604]{e_FILE}public/1299819348_16400_FT78475_king.jpg">
I have NEVER had a dog get a serious infection from an ear cropping...maybe an occational mild redness which antibiotics totally eliminates in a day or two. I would NOT be concerned about infection at all. The more important factor in my opinion is how will the dog respond to you taping the ears if that becomes necessary.
I have never had a problem with infection from ear cropping either. I have only done four dogs though.I have also used both laser and standard cropping method as well and the only problem was with taping on my two male neo's
I concur. The likelihood of an infection is minimal. The only infections I have seen are with serious taping and posting of very long crops. IME, the taping and lack of care of the bandages were what caused the problem and led to the extent of it. This is why I prefer short crops. I feel that the crop itself is done humanely but most posting is pretty horrible.
If you do a very short crop, you should have not troubles as long as you follow the Veterinary instructions about aftercare.
Vas- Neonatal crops are hard to do correctly. At the time the ear canal is closed and the auricular cartilage and pinnae is not fully formed. If you cut it too far, you end up with a blunt cut across the pinnae. An inch in an older dogs ear pinnae can translate to millimeters in a neonate. It can be done, but it very difficult to do right.
In LGDs this is not as noticeable because most have a heavy coat. If you look at other shorter coated LGD dogs you will see the cut I am referring to. There are many in the gallery here:
i was thinking more like infection from the bedding and what else getting into the ear since its now open rather than being covered and protected by the ear flap
Ah, no. I have never run into a problem. They can get items in their ears, but I have never had a serious blockage. They have hairs in their ears that help prevent this.
Why do you want to crop your dog's ears? I find it pointless, you want the look and you are willing to put the dog through the pain for your vanity. It's not like you have a hunting dog that would benefit from this, you are simply doing it to make your dog look tough. You make your dogs wear those spiked harnesses and now you wanna crop your dog's ears. With all due respect you are not helping the image of the breed by doing this. Everyone in the world hates pit bulls and see them as vicious animals, going out of your way to make your dogs look tough is lame in my opinion. I have nothing personal against you but I just think you should focus more on working out your dogs, and feeding them the proper diet instead of focusing on making them look TOUGH.
Cropping serves two benefits.
1. It opens the ear canal for sound. Cover your ear with your hand (like a hanging ear flap) and sounds are muffled. Dogs still obviously do well though because they have good hearing, but it seems better and truely more "natural" to have a more open ear canal and "dished type" erect ear (if we look at nature all wild canids have erect ears as do felines and other mammals there is a REASON for this). Then try making a dish with your hand and hold it over the ear. Sounds are almost "amplified" as they get caught by the dish and directed into the ear canal. [u]When we consider "survival of the fittest by natural selection"...we discover that nature has proven the erect ear is superior to the floppy ear[/u].
2. If anything, a dog with a cropped ear is LESS prone to infections in the ear canal...especially in mastiff type breeds with thick heavy ear flaps that restrict air flow ventilation. If the ear is prevented from "breathing" yeast type infections and some bacterial infections can become common in such "heavy" eared dogs.
I know why working dogs get cropped. This guy walks his dogs once a week, I doubt he is hunting or doing any activity that necessitates this painful surgery on an older dog.
It's like me cropping Bernie's ears and I live in the suburbs the wildest thing he will run ito a is a crack head or a squirrel.
[quote1299855782=LeeRobinson]
Cropping serves two benefits.
1. It opens the ear canal for sound. Cover your ear with your hand (like a hanging ear flap) and sounds are muffled. Dogs still obviously do well though because they have good hearing, but it seems better and truely more "natural" to have a more open ear canal and "dished type" erect ear (if we look at nature all wild canids have erect ears as do felines and other mammals there is a REASON for this). Then try making a dish with your hand and hold it over the ear. Sounds are almost "amplified" as they get caught by the dish and directed into the ear canal. [u]When we consider "survival of the fittest by natural selection"...we discover that nature has proven the erect ear is superior to the floppy ear[/u].
2. If anything, a dog with a cropped ear is LESS prone to infections in the ear canal...especially in mastiff type breeds with thick heavy ear flaps that restrict air flow ventilation. If the ear is prevented from "breathing" yeast type infections and some bacterial infections can become common in such "heavy" eared dogs.
[/quote1299855782]
I agree on cropping a dog that will work facing a wild animal or a human threat or if I am showing the animal. My dog has super hound mastiff ears and I never have to worry about infections. I wipe his ears once a week and his ears are clean as a whistle. If I cropped his ears my dog would look quite intimidating and with all the BSL going around the last thing I want is unecessary attention.
IMO, BSL is not truly caused because of how a dog looks, but based upon poor judgemnt by irresponsible owners and/or unethical owners. Unfortunately, their actions do indeed cause legislation that effects all of us. Of course there is SOME degree of prejudice against certain looks (so I understand where you are coming from), but the actual push for BSL usually is motivated by some form of "action" due to the unethical (fighting) or irresponsible (letting their dogs get loose where thye bite people or other animals).
[quote1299857668=LeeRobinson]
IMO, BSL is not truly caused because of how a dog looks, but based upon poor judgemnt by irresponsible owners and/or unethical owners. Unfortunately, their actions do indeed cause legislation that effects all of us. Of course there is SOME degree of prejudice against certain looks (so I understand where you are coming from), but the actual push for BSL usually is motivated by some form of "action" due to the unethical (fighting) or irresponsible (letting their dogs get loose where thye bite people or other animals).
[/quote1299857668]
The sad thing Lee is that these dogs are discriminated because of irresponsible owners. I don't fight my dogs, I train my dog to be civil and respect obedience. However, I know how great my dog is, those that watch the news or don't know anything about the breed have a predisposition about how vicious my dog is supossed to be. People ask me on the street what he is, they also comment such as " isn't that the breed that mauls babies?" Given this horrible public perception of the breed I try to do what I can to cause a positive experience when anyone meets my dog. I know my dog is brave I know my dog is strong but I don't want to parade my dog around the town like he is some chained beast with spikes coming out of his equipment and looking mean. In fact the American Pit Bull Terrier suffers because people that don't responsibly own the dog or misrepresent the breed. The breed standard calls a severe fault deaming to put the dog down if it shows unprovoked human agression. My dog is not an APBT but anyone that meets it either calls it Bullmastiff or a giant pit bull. So I do what I can do show them that these dogs aren't monsters.
Now If I have a working dog like one of yours, there is no hiding of what the dog is capable and what it was purchased for. But even then I would try to make the best public experience to educate the public. I met Presas, Cane Corsos, American Bulldogs and i didn't let the negative stereotypes the media control my judgement of these great breeds.
I hear ya...and I feel your pain on the issue. But, I don't think they ask if your dog mauls babies because a dog's ears are or are not cropped. I think it is because the general public is far often too stupid and or too lazy to come up with appropriate forms of punishing the crimes...so instead they make blanket "breed" restrictions. Of course that is inappropriate as it is prejudice based upon ignorance...as things get lumped into groups instead of remaining individuals.
All that said though...the public wouldn't feel that way without some form of motive for their hystaria...meaning, we need to target the unethical and the irresponsible instead of those that can handle what they do, have, and prefer.
A lot of people associate cropping ears with fighting. Breeders need to screen their buyers and breeders need to make a distinction so backyard breeders cannnot compete with them. I know an APBT breeder that won't give you the dog's papers until you show proof that the dog attended two obedience classes and that the dog is fixed.
Backyard breeders can't compete with real kennels that health test and actually produce quality stable dogs. The more breeders that do this the more buyers they will attract and this will force buyers to become educated and backyard breeders to quit or to make a change for the better.
[quote1299906107=cawkazn]
how old is too old to crop a dogs ears? i heard about a laser surgery that supposedly you can crop the dogs ears and its much better and painless etc. I always wanted to crop my dogs ears, I would like to do so if possible but not if its going to cause him a lot of pain.
[/quote1299906107]
read the above david. theres nothing wrong with asking. I wanted to crop his ears but I couldnt afford it at the time. now I can but he is old. and that is why i asked the question. as for the harness, if you read what i said when i posted it, I originally bought it to make her look "cool" when I first got her about 5 yrs ago, she was my first pitbull and the breed was new to me and the whole bully side is what i was exposed too and all the bully shows and what not. anyways, i never use that thing anymore, but that day I decided to put it on her to offer some protection because she will get scratches on her chest from running through the brush. going back to the ears, my female actually has a small tear towards the corner of her ear, I have no idea how she got it, it was a long time ago but it looks like it may have got caught on something, or maybe torn playing with my other dogs.
cropped ears being less prone to infection makes sense as the ear can get aired out. when I was a kid we had a springer spaniel, he was always getting ear infections from his long droopy ears, when he got old he went deaf because of the chronic ear infections.
[quote1299906612=davidfitness83]
A lot of people associate cropping ears with fighting. Breeders need to screen their buyers and breeders need to make a distinction so backyard breeders cannnot compete with them. I know an APBT breeder that won't give you the dog's papers until you show proof that the dog attended two obedience classes and that the dog is fixed.
Backyard breeders can't compete with real kennels that health test and actually produce quality stable dogs. The more breeders that do this the more buyers they will attract and this will force buyers to become educated and backyard breeders to quit or to make a change for the better.
[/quote1299906612]
thats good what that guy is doing but i would have to disagree in it attracting more buyers, as most ppl are not willing to do all that just to get a dog or its papers, i think most ppl would just say whatever and on to the next guy that doesnt give a damn and will sell his dog to anyone. I supppose if someone really wanted the guys dogs you are talking about they would be willing to do that, but the general public wouldnt. most ppl dont even keep thier dogs. you see it all the time, moving must rehome dog, its like why dont you move somewhere that allows dogs?
I can use my self as an example. I went the backyard breeder path and I regret it. I have a dog with the most awesome temperament but awful structure and at almost 2 years of age he failed the hip test. Next time I buy a dog it will be from a reputable breeder with health test papers on hand.
The breeder I was mentioning is actually a very popular breeder and she has some amazing dogs. Check out caragan kennels ! I know you were interested in apbts before when you posted that game dog. Her dogs aren't as intense because they weren't selectively bred for the pit. Obviously they still can not be trusted not to become DA but they are less prone.
so im wondering as far as the ear crop goes for my male. yes its possible to clip his ears at his age, but is it going to put him through much pain? would doing it by laser make any difference?
[quote1299997414=davidfitness83]
[quote1299857668=LeeRobinson]
IMO, BSL is not truly caused because of how a dog looks, but based upon poor judgemnt by irresponsible owners and/or unethical owners. Unfortunately, their actions do indeed cause legislation that effects all of us. Of course there is SOME degree of prejudice against certain looks (so I understand where you are coming from), but the actual push for BSL usually is motivated by some form of "action" due to the unethical (fighting) or irresponsible (letting their dogs get loose where thye bite people or other animals).
[/quote1299857668]
The sad thing Lee is that these dogs are discriminated because of irresponsible owners. I don't fight my dogs, I train my dog to be civil and respect obedience. However, I know how great my dog is, those that watch the news or don't know anything about the breed have a predisposition about how vicious my dog is supossed to be. People ask me on the street what he is, they also comment such as " isn't that the breed that mauls babies?" Given this horrible public perception of the breed I try to do what I can to cause a positive experience when anyone meets my dog. I know my dog is brave I know my dog is strong but I don't want to parade my dog around the town like he is some chained beast with spikes coming out of his equipment and looking mean. In fact the American Pit Bull Terrier suffers because people that don't responsibly own the dog or misrepresent the breed. The breed standard calls a severe fault deaming to put the dog down if it shows unprovoked human agression. My dog is not an APBT but anyone that meets it either calls it Bullmastiff or a giant pit bull. So I do what I can do show them that these dogs aren't monsters.
Now If I have a working dog like one of yours, there is no hiding of what the dog is capable and what it was purchased for. But even then I would try to make the best public experience to educate the public. I met Presas, Cane Corsos, American Bulldogs and i didn't let the negative stereotypes the media control my judgement of these great breeds.
[/quote1299997414]
every time i take my dogs to the vet or groomed the people always fall in love with them. they always say they have never met such nice pitbulls. I get the same experiences as you with the general public. several years ago, i bought a video camera and was all hyped up that i got it. and i decided to make a documentary about the publics general view thoughts and impressions of the apbt, i interviewed a few ppl, and recorded ppls reactions when just walked my dog, but i never did follow through with it.
on the other side, i have had my dogs stop people from trying to rob me a couple times, once at a gas station, another time at a drive through. when my male was a pup i also had people try and beat me up and steal him from me.
checked out caragans kennels, they are some nice dogs, some of them look a little bully though. i think this dog is real nice, that is the style crop i like as well.
http://www.caragankennel.com/Enforcer.html
[quote1300023780=cawkazn]
so im wondering as far as the ear crop goes for my male. yes its possible to clip his ears at his age, but is it going to put him through much pain? would doing it by laser make any difference?
[/quote1300023780]
The 500 dollars you are going to spend on chopping his ears you can spend on trainning classes, new collars,new harnesses there is a lot you can do for your dog with that money that will pay off much better than cropping them. I am sure like all of our dogs he can leave new things, I would find a really good trainer and spend it on a fun class for your dog.
Like I said before, pain is pain. There will be pain. The surgery usually is cleaner and quicker with the laser (also depending on the Vet's skill. The procedure is done under anesthesia, no perception of pain. Analgesia for aftercare will be needed.
Good analgesia and anesthesia can lessen this postop pain. A good Vet will supply with proper pain control.
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