I've heard that this is breed is more similar to Rafeiro do Alentejo than Cao da Serra da Estrela. And white is pretty dominant in the Transmontano, so allowing more white in the Estrela would make them more similar to each other.

If they're changing the Estrela's breedstandard just to make it easier or more difficult to separate the breed from Alentejo and Transmontano......well, then we're heading in the wrong direction. Breedstandard should only be changed if there's a chance it will improve health or working ability.

Transmontano cattledogs and estrelas have nothing to do...they´re completly different...there´s no way you can get confused. As carla said, they were recognized as a breed quite recently and that´s because there was a lot of controversy about the diferences between them and the Alentejo mastiff. In fact they´re basicly the same dog, with the exeption that transmontanos are slightly bigger. There are some other small differences but sometimes is quite diffucult to tell de difference between the two. Regarding to estrelas, there´s no possible confusion, so I don´t understand your points about changing estrelas standard. :P

Only two or three breeders are testing for working ability... How come changing on the standard would be good? If you want to breed working dogs , form follows function. Simple as that .

I understand Estrela, but I don´t think it really a matter of opinions. There almost identical. Of course tranmontano enthusiasts like to say they´re completly different, but I think If you look at them you´ll find it very hard to spot big differences. Transmontanos are quite possibly alentejo mastiffs that became isolated in the region of Trás-os-Montes(were they come from) and with time they became bigger and developing some carachteristics of their own, since Trás-os-Montes is a mountain region with a much more agressive climate, as oposed to Alentejo region that is hoter a mostly made of plains. :D

Go see the galleries of the two breeds and make your own opinion. :wink:

But I do ´cause it´s fact. A poodle it´s quite different from a rottweiler. It´s not a matter of opinion, It´s a fact. Anyway I never said they were the same dog, I just said they they were almost identical.

I have looked at the galleries. what in your opinion makes them identical? Tiago

The fact that I´m portuguese, I live in Portugal and have been around these breeds for quite a while now. I´ve followed the Transmontano Cattledog´s recognition and the discussion that was around it. It´s a FACT that these two breeds are strickly relatedand have HUGE similarities, but I give up in making you understand that.

Why dont you share some of your thoughts instead of being defensive?

Wonder if its a fact that Azorean Griffons , Bouvier des Flandres and Black Russian Terriers are the same dogs??

Tiago, I said what I had to say and if you and Estrela don´t want to accept it as a FACT I really don´t care.

Its all good man. We accept your opinions as facts. Peace in wonderland, Tiago

I don´t want you to accept my opinions as facts. So far I haven´t been giving any opinions about this subject, I´ve been stating FACTS and, as I said before, this is really not a matter of opinions. You perhaps should read my posts again. I said that Transmontanos and Alentejo Mastiffs are extremely close to each other and that sometimes it´s very difficult and even impossible to spot the differences. NO ONE can say or have the opinion that they are completely different breeds and that they have nothing to do. The APBT is very closely related to the AmStaff. This is not my opinion, i´ts a FACT. Same thing with Transmontanos and Alentejo mastiffs. Why do you make it so complicated???? 8O

Sorry Skive but you are totally out of line. You cannot invent a new defininition of the word "fact". A fact is: 2+2 = 4 or similar. You can state it as a fact that BY GENETICS those two breeds are almost the same if you have the scientific reasearch for it. But, to claim that it's a fact just by looking at the breeds then you're totally out of line. To look or observe, is something subjective, not objective. I know Estrelas that look like Sarplaninacs, and I bet they would still be considered "good" or "very good" in dog shows. That does not mean that it's a FACT that they are identical breeds. :roll: Let me use another example, a genuine Rolex watch and a false Rolex watch. If you look at them they are similar, but they are still different. The last example: I think Toyota cars are similar to Hondas. I claim that as a fact an NO ONE can claim that it's not because it's a fact. Don't you see how stupid that sounds?

The differences between these two breeds are explained in their Profiles.

"To look or observe, is something subjective, not objective. I know Estrelas that look like Sarplaninacs, and I bet they would still be considered "good" or "very good" in dog shows. That does not mean that it's a FACT that they are identical breeds." I ain´t even gonna comment that... Listen recercare, I never said they were identical breeds. I´ve been around these breed for a long time now and I am a huge Alentejo mastiff and transmontano enthusiast and my statements aren´t based just on observations. What do you know about these breeds? I don´t need to have genetic knowledge to know they are extremely related breeds. Do you need genetics to understant that apbt´s and amstaffs are very related breeds? The transmontano, the alentejo mastiff and even the spanish mastino ligero all come from the same tipe of dogs that then became slightly different ´cause of their environment. It´s a FACT that they are strickly related to one another. As I stated before I folowed the recognition of the transmontano and all the discussion going around it. You´re the one who´s totally out of line, and if you don´t want to accept what I´m saying then buy yourself a ticket and come to portugal to do some research, talk to people, and see it with your own eyes. Wolf, I see you changed their profiles and they are more complete now. You say there are significant differences in their temperament. I don´t really agree, I see no big differences. I mean, there may be some small differences but in general they have the same temperament and behaviour. Physicaly transmontanos tend to be taller and a bit leaner. But anyway, they´re far away from being an homogenic breed and specimens with different apearence are common. Many of them are just like alentejo mastiff´s and they don´t necessearily need to be recent crossbreeds. I also don´t understant why the transmontano shows bigger eastern influence. It often resembles dogs like the kangal in their physical apearence but I don´t see why that necessarily has to represent more easter influence than the alentejo or any other portuguese LGD.

Skive, I think you misunderstood. I didn't disagree with you about the similarities between Alentejo and Transmontano. In fact, according to what I've read and seen (in pictures) my impression is that they are very similar, just like you said. The point in my post was to question your use of the word "facts". At least where I live we don't use that word without showing or refering to scientific research.

Lars, I got your point. But to state a fact you don´t always have to proove it scientifically. A poodle is smaller than a great dane. I don´t need no scientific research to state this as a fact. Anyway, insted of using the word fact, that seems to cause a lot of controversy in here, I´ll just say that Transmontanos and Alentejo´s ARE very related to each other.

Skive, the reason for using "facts" only when you show scientific research is more related to culture than logics....and culture is different depending on where you live. So, your example of Great Dane vs Poodle is correct and logical, but still a Norwegian/Swedish would hesitate to use the word "facts" in that example due to his/her "language culture".