American Bulldog - Johnson vs. Scott

I can't take credit for sh!tacular, I must give credit to my good friend Wolf for that one, and many more I shouldn't put here. A breed *can* be set in as little time as the creator thinks it takes. It could be around for 1000 years and never be a breed but a regional type. It would take a massive overhaul of the ENTIRE community involved in the AB for the ab to take the right strides to become something serious in terms of "breed". There is sooooooooooo much more politics, backstabbing, lieing and flat out stealing in the breed for anything progressive to happen. That, and every sucker out there trying to make a quick buck, also every breeder now miraculously had these ancient dogs in their families for 200 years(a bs story banking on the ignorance of the public) and exactly what I've said, any fool can make one. You are hard pressed to find a ghetto or backwoods area that doesn't have a ton of pits, ton of bulldogs and ton of crap being intermixed into oblivion, and are even more hard pressed to find a uniform litter in the AB. As far as the EBT, you have been led astray by the head, there is MUCH more to those demonic little SOBs than you'd think. They are just (usually) so much smarter than their owner, that they dumb down to meet their surroundings. Meet some, you'll change your views, I promise, I did.

Yes AB's have unfortunately been plagued with "start from scratch" AB's. I won't mention names, but they are how some black AB's came to be developed. Most are Boston terrier based and I believe boxer may have been used for more size.

Unable to thank, but Thanks to Tonedog in his last post. The EBT, I'm torn, should they remain the little gold mine being over looked, or should they gain their rightful reputation for being gold mines.... I just don't know how I feel about it. The black bulldogs... have been around as long as the breed, it was just culled because they were trying in everyway to distance them from the APBT, by dropping the name "pit" from the original name and any color known to be a give away(blacks, tans with black masks). But they are being sold today as a cash cow... which is both sad and understandable. Sad because they are being reproduced for no other reason, and understandable because people are supporting their families on these mongrels in this day of hard to find jobs. I have seen black dogs on kennel videos from some of the biggest breeders around 15 years ago, I've seen rottweiler and Dobie in Billy Hines kennel video and MANY of the black bulldogs go back to his stock. Jus' sayin'

[quote1320802062=acamper] [quote1320797358=Crnosrce1] Which equalsa not listening to any douche on the street, which in turn is seen as "not as nice of a dog" which is why I said not liking or being nice to just everyone, which is why I'd choose a dog like your Kaiser over ANY gamebred or any APBT for that matter if I were to create an AB. In my opinion, the APBT is over used and over hyped, sorry ain't changing it. [/quote1320797358] I agree TOTALLY with overused AND overhyped. It's like they're superFRIGGINdogs almost Godlike in that NO dog can stand up to them. I feel 99% of the blame falls on the media and THEIR sensationalism of the breed, (Poor raising doesn't help either). EVERYONE, well not everyone but quite a few people feel that APBTs are baby killing, devil dogs, VERY hard to overcome. That is the sole reason that I would bypass ANY APBT, SBT, AMSTAFF and still not sure about the EBT. I have to agree with Mike that I'd be inclined to use a DECENTLY bred EB before one of the bull/TERRIERS. Isn't it the terrier that brings out the aggression and the BULL side the gameness/COURAGE? [/quote1320802062] I have to agree with you on some points here. But let's look at the direction the Ebt has gone vs the apbt. I don't think anyone doubts that finding a good throwback ebt that hasn't gone the show direction is hard to come by. On the other hand there are still countless lines of apbt that are bred for performance. And really to be honest it may in fact come down to a numbers game. Given the number of apbt vs the ebt still bred for performance for countless generations. On the other hand if there were still a high number of ebt bred with strict performance measures it would probably be quite a different story. Again this isn't to say that ebt crosses can't be great working examples. Obviously as Gun is well aware they are quite accomplished in Australia.

People can breed whatever they want and call it anything they feel like. They can buy and feed whichever version of any given breed they care to. If they bought an AB, they have an AB. There are papers proving their claims in most cases. IF the breed is a boardog, then every single AB should be of such heritage. If it protects, cool. If it works man like a heathen, but won't catch... Is it an AB? Will it fight, but won't defend? If it's a bulldog and an American Bulldog on top of that, the dog [u]must be one[/u]. If you want to add papers to such a dog to "elevate" it from the common pigger class, knock yourself out. All the better. However, hundreds of litters born to parents not belonging to the same breed (not so important), same type (somewhat important) and the same working background (very important) can all have the same papers.

[quote1320802943=Crnosrce1] Unable to thank, but Thanks to Tonedog in his last post. The EBT, I'm torn, should they remain the little gold mine being over looked, or should they gain their rightful reputation for being gold mines.... I just don't know how I feel about it. The black bulldogs... have been around as long as the breed, it was just culled because they were trying in everyway to distance them from the APBT, by dropping the name "pit" from the original name and any color known to be a give away(blacks, tans with black masks). But they are being sold today as a cash cow... which is both sad and understandable. Sad because they are being reproduced for no other reason, and understandable because people are supporting their families on these mongrels in this day of hard to find jobs. I have seen black dogs on kennel videos from some of the biggest breeders around 15 years ago, I've seen rottweiler and Dobie in Billy Hines kennel video and MANY of the black bulldogs go back to his stock. Jus' sayin' [/quote1320802943] I should have been more clear. There are certainly lines of black bulldogs that have been around forever. And I actually thoroughly enjoy these lines as many are bred for performance.The specific lines I'm referring to have less mouth than a boxer and a very flawed structure. I believe some these kennels to be quite new but also gaining popularity.

Even then,I think ya gotta dope the female up to like a male egg head LOL

The purebred EBT fancy, generally speaking, has been fairly snobby and elitist in nature for a long time. The "pure" thing is like the biggest deal to them. Their pricing keeps the "workers" away and that's why the pit is the go-to... Could be, but it could also come from pits being much much cheaper anyway. Hand in hand like that these matters go, Yoda. Pits are everywhere, cost little and are replaceable, whereas the EBT isn't as omnipresent and it costs a bit on top. P.S. The general public was successfully convinced that the EBT is a waste of time. By the EBT fancy. Score. P.P.S. Eastern Europe, S.Africa and Australia excluded, obviously. (a)

[quote1320855428=Crnosrce1] Alan, There isn't a breed out there that isn't plagued with health issues of some form. That being said, yes Boxers and EB's do have some bad health problems, but there are lines out there who still keep a good healthy dog. Dogos are prone to deafness and have little to no man aggro, but I'm not using them to bring Man work out. EB's cross like, as I very recently was told by yet another dogman, hidden gold. I've seen many a EB cross dog who was a hellion and healthy and lived long. I'd be using them for their willingness to take on anything. I'd be using the EBT for their ridiculous bite, strong will and personality, and the raw power they possess and how well they cross and are easily hidden in the cross. Boxers are athletic as shit, and some are still very much a functional bulldog. Again, these are the breeds Id be looking to find the correct INDIVIDUAL animals for use, not just any sh!tacular example I can get my hands on. I'm not opposed to using a Staffy Bull if the right example happens my way. I am not opposed to throwing some gundog like pointer in there, again if the right dog comes along. Tonedog, I understand and agree with just about everything you just posted. I'd call them an AB, because I have seen breeders start entire bloodlines on these cross dogs without a single drop of "ab" blood in there, and they have world champions. I won't divuldge what lines, but they are most deffinitely out there. The BEST bulldogs I have seen in an extremely long time are owned by a member here, Realdoggesyndicate. I saw them in person, I had nothing bad to say about them, and they're straight catchdog bred to catchdog, with NO brood bitches(meaning bitches work even if they have say old pups) for 40 years. [/quote1320855428] I find this post odd, considering your fore-mentioned post on consistency. You speak of consistency, yet you advocate the English Bulldog as a foundation dog for a performance breeding program? I hate to sound confrontational, but I'd consider NONE of the breeds you mentioned as foundation dogs. As I mentioned earlier, it's quite simple to have an esoteric conversation about "which breeds" you'd choose in order to achieve the goal of XYZ. It's been my experience that in the event these esoteric conversations come to fruition and become breeding "programs," the result is commonly that the progeny of such "programs" end up on shelter floors. This is merely the result of genetics. It is erroneous to believe that if you interbreed several breeds based on what's considered their optimal traits, that the resultant dogs will have more than an average chance of displaying these optimal traits with any consistency. You mention the English Bulldog as a dog "willing to take on anything." You'd use the EBT for their "ridiculous bite and raw power." Dogos you say, "have little no no man aggro." The Boxer you'd use because, "they're athletic as shit." So the resultant dogs would be athletic as shit dogs, with ridiculous bites and raw power, and will take on anything." Correct? Let's say this...Assume that you take your supreme examples of said breeds, and that you devise a formula as to the what % of which breed will go into the mix and which respective genders will be used. The English Bulldog manifests itself by throwing pups with proportionally large craniums that get stuck in the birth canal. Oh, and those heads also have extremely undershot, non-functional jaws which render drastically reduced the bite power of the EBT. In addition, there was epilepsy a generation back. Unfortunately, you were unaware of that. So that's been passed. Oh and the structure of the Boxer, with it's exagggeratedly deep and narrow chest...Well the resultant diminished lung capacity that comes with that form was also reproduced in these dogs. As was its weak heart. Combined with the English Bulldog's inability to breath cleanly...Not a good combo. As for the influence of the Dogo in this "program," well it's quite inaccurate to say the breed has "little to no man aggro." The Dogo is typically an incredibly rank driven breed that shows sharp handler sensitivity during man-work. I know you mentioned you'd not use the Dogo in such a capacity. However, those traits were passed as well. That doesn't bode well for any prospective owners with young children in the house. The dogs did inherent the keen tracking nose of the Dogo. However, their forms once again betrays them in that they become winded quite quickly when cold scenting whilst on the run. So yeah, you do the math and tell me if the above scenario is remotely possible...

Sure, if you want to take the absolute worst shit examples, yes those things happen. Also, extreme features go away in crosses due to genes wanting to take the path of least resistance. It takes a lot of effort to screw a dog up as bad as you are portraying, and a lot of breeding for shit reasons. I've never seen a dogo to be rank, but hey I'm open to it. I also know lines who have used all the aforementioned dogs and turn out just fine. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But, why are people so quick to knock any of the other bull breeds than the APBT? Why is it so far out of the ordinary for people to use whatever they had and turned out having great dogs? I just don't get the staunch only pure AB mentality anymore. I do agree with Pauly, go and see as many kennels, dogs and trainers as you can and see if this is the breed you wanna screw around with. Peace and chicken grease

[quote1320862417=Crnosrce1] Sure, if you want to take the absolute worst shit examples, yes those things happen. Also, extreme features go away in crosses due to genes wanting to take the path of least resistance. It takes a lot of effort to screw a dog up as bad as you are portraying, and a lot of breeding for shit reasons. I've never seen a dogo to be rank, but hey I'm open to it. I also know lines who have used all the aforementioned dogs and turn out just fine. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But, why are people so quick to knock any of the other bull breeds than the APBT? Why is it so far out of the ordinary for people to use whatever they had and turned out having great dogs? I just don't get the staunch only pure AB mentality anymore. I do agree with Pauly, go and see as many kennels, dogs and trainers as you can and see if this is the breed you wanna screw around with. Peace and chicken grease [/quote1320862417] I don't believe its about knocking other bull breeds. A good dog is where you find it. And as mentioned other countries have used the Ebt with success. In the states though its much easier to obtain good working performance bred apbts than Ebts. Sure you could probably search long and hard to find a good ebt in the states and probably end up paying much more or settle for a sub par show bred ebt that you'll still pay too much for, or you could import one and pay even more. But why ? If you can obtain an athlete selectivly bred by strict performance measures. Certainly you can find good examples in other bull breeds but some more than others.

[quote1320881533=LeeRobinson] ...the APBT wins in performance. [/quote1320881533] You have no way of knowing that. [quote1320881632=Tonedog] The best ebts would probably be the cheapest ones. [/quote1320881632] Not necessarily, especially without qualifying "best" first. The EBT is loved by two groups of people; the folks who love the breed as is and those who love what the EBT brings. Everyone else falls under general dog fan. Crossed and "low type" EBTs are better workers by default, since the "top shelf" pure stuff doesn't get worked in 99% of cases. But a quality EBT is a juggernaut for working dog programmes, it's not rarely employed because it's crap, it's just not as available as the alternatives. That doesn't make the breed awesome or "better than" anything, it's just what's behind it. When EBTs were more available and before BSL and accompanying restrictions forced their fancy to get über-responsible, they were used a LOT. For a lot. The EBT deserved its reputation. Doesn't make it better than anything, it just makes it something. Or at least - more than nothing, opposed to what's routinely being ignorantly spread by pit-fan wannabes. It's just lack of education. P.S. I'd simultaneously agree and disagree with your assessment of any bull-n-terrier being just a bull-n-terrier when crossed regardless of breed. In general, sure. But there are breeds and there are differences, especially in what can be offered in a cross. It's not just little things.

Well, we took 1 left turn, so why not 2? LOL

In all honesty, its good to learn about all things that may or may not have been added into the breed you own. I mean, wouldn't you wanna know why you're dog may do certain things? Could be passed on from something in the woodpile ;-)

[quote1320903143=LeeRobinson] Only in the dreams of an ostrich that has his head in the sand would someone make such a foolish statement. [/quote1320903143] Ostriches don't do that. Also, what?

Performance? What work? The word performance is vague and has no context. Everyone keeps flashing that word everywhere these days like people used "game" back in the day. Frankly, it is silly.

[quote]It's a well known bit or sarcasm.[/quote]

[quote1322292674=Pauly] And about the good ones coming from straight hunting stock...I guess that'd be dependant on what you consider good. Some of my favorite ab's in the breed didn't come from a hunting dog for 40 years. Most standard/scott american bulldogs don't even come from a strictly hunting background. [/quote1322292674] Oh I agree. That's why I said: [quote1322292635=Wolf] IF the breed is a boardog, then every single AB should be of such heritage. [/quote1322292635] The "if" part is there for that. Just classify them as multipurpose working dogs and be done with it, ya know? Good post, btw. Missed it on the first glance-over.

Stamina and spunk, same reason why the Boxer is a huge part of the traditional Fila Brasileiro. With the Dogue Brasileiro, you have this idea of giving the Boxer a functional head and the Bullterrier a functional body, since wind is of no use without a mouth and the mouth is no use without wind.

Cawkazn, some breeds are good for crossing. That's all there is to it. All the stuff about individual dogs, working and show bloodlines, health selection and everything else is implied, but it boils down to the fact that some families produce better than others and that certain breeds within them are of better use for mixing than perpetuating their own pure form. You can take two crappy dogs of two proper breeds and produce a "bottom" litter of their mutts, but you can take those same lousy mutts and work and test the living daylights out of them and breed them until all the health issues and whatever else genetic ugliness rises up to the top, then cull even harder and select for genuine improvement until you have a bona fide elite worker with stable genetics to which you can forever refer as a cross of "A" and "B" ruined breeds. Or you can only use the best examples of whatever "ruined" breeds thinking that puts you ahead of the curve, by whichever criteria.

FYI, Most of the problems with "brachycephalic syndrome" seen in breeds of the head type do not have anything to do with the chest and lung capacity. This can happen as well, but that is another conformational defect that can happen with or without the brachycephalic syndrome problems. Stenotic nares: pinched or small nostrils. Elongated soft palate: Too much soft tissue between naso- and oropharynx. Irregularly small trachea, larynx and epiglottis. These are the primary issues with brachycephalic head conformation. I have seen many cases of airway reconstruction here for these issues. Also, if these issues are kept in mind, these issues can be avoided while still having a clear breathing brachycephalic breed, though the selection against them is a constant and vigilant battle. Diminished wind capacity/lung field can also add to the deficits of the syndrome, but is not exclusive to brachycephalic breeds. There are many conformational faults that can decrease lung capacity/field, but that is another thread...