Balck coat and % of white

I was just wondering peoples opinion on the all black presa? If you have had first hand contact with one, do you notice any difference between an all black presa as opposed to any other coat color? Differences such as temp., body structure, sharper mind, do you think that the black presa acts more like another breed? I ask that because a lot of people did not or do not accept the all black presa as pure! Secondly has anyone had first hand experience with an all white or prodominantly white presa? Are there more health problems, because of the light coat and uv rays and such? If so does the dogo argentino have those same problems?

[quote=RubberDucky]I wonder if an all white presa is similar to an all white boxer. If a dog inherits to copy's of a white marking gene, then it is expressed as an all white dog.[/quote] ??? Sorry but I odnt understand

The Solid black (with white) puppy I saw in person had a very glossy, shiny coat- like a beautiful pitbull. That of course, isn't the correct coat for a presa, even a puppy. Didn't see this dog grown, so have no clue as to health or temp. As for puppy temp, it was a normal puppy.. there have been some debates over the black coat. The official verdict on the black coat as told to us by the Spanish club was that the black coated dogs were unhealthier; however, not having too many specimens available to us here in the US, and those that do have them would probably go to their grave before revealing any flaws.. I can't substantiate the spanish reasoning. As for the all/predominantly white dogs.. haven't seen too many of those lately. They were more visible in the early to mid 90's here in the US. Met one majorly used stud dog named BullRog....who looked like a bulldog. ALl white with brindle patching, and a nasty attitude. Passed that and several other strange colors, as well as the large white amounts on to his progeny. Show Stoppers has produced 2 all white presas that I know of. They were living in Detroit last I heard, and were descended/heavily inbred from Medusa, a primarily white foundation bitch. So seems the flash can take over such as n boxers, but since the goal of ALL presa standards is less white...you don't see them as often as in the boxer breed.

Ok, to me I think the all black presa is natural not a recent sign of crossing only because it is heavily documented that the great dane and 'ols style' pits were used in the re-creation. Ive seen some all black presas that look like presas as far as coat wise. As far as the all white, I heard something like their skin burns easily from the some, but would that be from lack of skin pigmentation or just the light coat? If from the light coat does the dogo argentino have the same problem? How about all white boxers, pits and other all whites? Touching back on coats when I first got my girl her coat was coarse (bree standard), but as I changed her diet her coat changed and even when I took her back to the breeder just to see her family the breeder commented on how she had never seen a presa's coat so soft and shiny. What do you think about that?

All depends on who you want to believe. Some people used other breeds in THEIR recreation, but it was not along recognized lines. The constant reduction of the amount of white and quite possibly the loss of the black in the standard was primarily to remove signs of those crossbreedings from the type. When the recognition of the breed happened by the RSCE, and the writing of the standard by the same organization in 1989, it was based on a few select "pure" dogs presented to the organization, as well as historic info gathered by the CEPRC about the breed. Shortly after that, a show was held to help register dogs that fit this bill, believed to be of presa lines. However, as the story goes, the person in charge of approving the dogs was appointed by the RSCE, and not familiar enough with the breed, and he basically accepted everything that was presented in front of him as breed-worthy presa, including a lot of bull-type mixes and owner creations. From that point on, it became the goal of the CEPRC to weed out these atypical specimens, which is why they held registro and conformacion up until the recognition of the breed in the 2000's. That was over 10 years of viewing and approving or rejecting dogs before they could be allowed paperwork to breed. Of course, there are always those that skirt the parameters and continue to make their own versions of things, and then sell them as "rustic" and "old world" or "original" instead of the more appropriate "atypical" and "unstandard". As for your dog, I'm sure I couldn't say, not having seen it. There is of course a difference in a puppy coat and adult, and oftentimes you will also notice a difference in a fawn and a brindle coat texture. The dog can be soft when well cared for, and shiny in the case of darker colors, but still have the coarse hairs of the proper coat. It's hard to explain in words and not in coats in front of you...but the hair should still be coarse, never satiny smooth like a pit bull. Diet can definately play a part in the coat, but it should always remain at base "Coarse". When I tried out a few of my girls on Blue Buffalo, I saw them lose one coat, and grow in a different more lusturous coat...but it was still coarse, not satiny. This is an example of one of my girls on Blue Buffalo. As you see, the dark coat was very lusturous, some would call it shiny; but her coat was still "coarse" when you run your hands over it. BTW, Coarse does not mean "Rough" or "Sharp". This is a friends APBT. I'm not sure this pic is close enough for you to see the difference to a great degree, but the hair on the APBT is smoother, lies flat and is hard to discern the different strands. This dog feels like satin when you pet him (If you can get him to stay still long enough). It's kind of like the difference between a human's coarse hair and fine hair. Again, I don't have your dog in front of me, so I can't say if we're talking the same thing. It could be your dog actually does have an atypical coat now, for all I know. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, that it might be fine, and we're just not talking the same language.

PRESADAM I fully understand what you mean about the coats my dogs coat IS more like a smoother presa coats than a pitbull.

[quote=redcoat1102]why not talk about the grey coat? some american presas have arbaco in the pedigree of their dogs. arbaco was a neo mix in the states and people who were not knowledgeable bought dogs with this tainted blood in it[/quote] Well the reason I dont talk about the grey coat is because I know there is no grey coat in the presa breed, when I see a so-called grey presa I will let the owner know that the dog isnt of standard and is mixed somewhere along their lines. I have seen a couple of these "rare" grey presas for sale and wouldnt touch them with a ten foot pole!

Also redcoat a lot of these 'big time breeders' hide the fact that Abarco is the foundation of their lines, as supposd to early on, the arbaco 'line' was what the streets would consider 'hot' so their is Arbaco all over the united stateds and that is why a lot of people usually buy from across seas. Not saying that over seas not adding anything to their mix, but its one thing to be tricked and another thing to be flat out STUPID. Another thing these Arbaco offsprings are consistently producing "grey" pups, so if that doesnt tell you in was a neo mix then nothing else should. Lets say the presa did throw the "grey" jean every now and then from either dog you wanna pick out of the re-creation process, the gene would be recessive, therefore not showing up in every litter by offspring of offspring from Arbaco. Does anyone have anyother pics of him? That one pic is driving me crazy!

You mean this one? This was a big deal in the early years of this breed. They got around it by saying it was the "silver" or "Grey" brindle described in the standard. This it the true "silver/grey"brindle (the adult) One of the DCCA's early club members had a dog out of Arbaco as her first presa. Then she made a trip to the Islands for the annual Monographica, and showed them a picture of him and of Arbaco. They couldn't stop laughing. However, since Arbaco's owner, Mac Harris was the first to register his dog with AKC-FSS, he pretty much got to submit his standard including acceptable colors (several of which are wrong/unacceptable if you look on the AKC site). He was also one of the first dogs to achieve a Championship under american judges who didn't know any better, so if he is a Ch he must be good right? Anyway, he is one of the things the DCCA club was founded to fight against, and in this day and age the only ones supporting him and that coloring are people who #1 can't let go of their bloodlines off of him cause it would make them admit they're wrong or #2 the uneducated. A couple of years ago I met a Cane/presa breeder from Germany. She told me the blue dogs were still a big problem in Germany.

[quote="Presadam"]You mean this one? This was a big deal in the early years of this breed. They got around it by saying it was the "silver" or "Grey" brindle described in the standard. This it the true "silver/grey"brindle (the adult) One of the DCCA's early club members had a dog out of Arbaco as her first presa. Then she made a trip to the Islands for the annual Monographica, and showed them a picture of him and of Arbaco. They couldn't stop laughing. However, since Arbaco's owner, Mac Harris was the first to register his dog with AKC-FSS, he pretty much got to submit his standard including acceptable colors (several of which are wrong/unacceptable if you look on the AKC site). He was also one of the first dogs to achieve a Championship under american judges who didn't know any better, so if he is a Ch he must be good right? Anyway, he is one of the things the DCCA club was founded to fight against, and in this day and age the only ones supporting him and that coloring are people who #1 can't let go of their bloodlines off of him cause it would make them admit they're wrong or #2 the uneducated. A couple of years ago I met a Cane/presa breeder from Germany. She told me the blue dogs were still a big problem in Germany.[/quote] That is the exact pic I was referring to, thanx for blowing it up I really could see any detail in the ones that I found. Does his head seem extremly round to you? I know of a breeder in Illinois who has a 'kennel' named Guardian Devil Kennels that foundation dog has to have Arbaco in its line, his stud threw about 4 'blue','grey'; 'silver' rare color pups and he sold most of them to the unsuspecting. On another note I love these forums when people can actually learn something from others. Keep posting presadam, Im learning everyday, between forums and having to presas of my own!

I found this one too for you on my computer. Sorry for the size. The rumor of this photo was the puppy on the back of Arbaco was a SS foundation puppy. This was used in Bruce Fogle's Encyclopedia of the Dog, I think. If Gary will allow this....and if you're interested....this was written by someone I know on one of our message forums a LONG time ago. This person was in the breed before I was, but isn't active any longer. I have every reason to believe that this person knew their stuff. The presa world was a LOT smaller back then. Please note, by "American Presa" it was referring to the original dogs of the early 1990's that most of the original US breeders based their kennels on as foundation stock. [blockquote]Origins of the American Presa To discuss the history of the Presa Canario in America, one needs to first look back at it’s introduction and understand that in reality there are actually two distinct breeds sharing a common name. First, there are Presa Canario that were officially recognized by the FCI in June of 2001 as breed #346 Dogo Canario. These dogs have been imported or have ancestry fully descending from dogs from Spain. Fully is meant as all generations, not one or possibly two dogs, but the entire pedigree. Then, there are dogs that solely or in part originated in the United States, compromised of various crossings of different breeds of dogs falsely given the name Presa Canario. These are the dogs that shall be discussed. The American Presa. The first Presas were introduced to the United States in the late 80’s although there are two different individuals who lay claim to being first American owner. Tobin Jackson of the former Deer Run Kennels in Frenchtown, NY and Peter Curley, a dog importer (some would use the term broker) of Merrimac, Wisconsin. Whoever came first is not really important because both of these men were responsible for the destruction of the breed before it began. The third guilty party is Richard Kelly of Show Stopper Kennels of NJ, but his roll would follow a bit later. Back in the late eighty’s early ninety’s as owning the “rare and unusual” became fashionable and ads began to appear in US magazines such as Dog Fancy and Dog World for many foreign and exotic dog breeds, amongst them was the Presa Canario. Little was known about the origin, history or even the way the dog was supposed to look. Little bits of information were all that people had to go on and everyone simply assumed that those breeding these dogs over here were the knowledgeable ones. Dr. Carl Semencic wrote a brief chapter regarding the breed in his second book “Pit Bulls and Tenacious Guard Dogs” which included many other foreign dogs that most Americans had never heard of. Wild tales of the dogs catching moving vehicles by the tires was printed as a testimony to the strength and determination of this mastiff from the Canaries along with a couple of photographs of an example of this breed. Not having any comparison to view most people assumed that this dog was a proper example of the breed, when in reality it was a very atypical example showing a lot of influence of Bullmastiff. To clear up the tales of the dogs catching cars: these were tales handed down from breeders of old, breeders of the first half of the 20th century. The Canary Islands was a more simple land with a more rural way of life and not yet many paved roads in those areas. Older model cars were still driven around the countryside, which due to the road conditions generally reached tops speeds of 15-20 miles per hour, slower on mountainous roads. So while this folklore may be true in some instances, a large dog catching a Model A driving 10 mph on a grassy rutted road isn’t exactly the awe inspiring vision one is supposed to have when believing these dogs caught moving vehicles by the tires. Most humans could have accomplished this feat without the help of a dog. Peter Curley contributed to the confusion of this breed by bringing dogs that lacked breed type and in most cases pedigree. Though some of his earliest dogs were flown in from Spain, they hardly resemble at all what a Presa Canario is. Dogs from Peter ranged from 20” and 70lbs to more than 30” tall, skinny and blue. He brought over dogs from alleged kennels with suspicious names such as “de Selva Libro” (the Jungle Book) and “Malvado Diablo” (wicked devil). Neither of these names are registered Afijo (affix or kennel name) with the RSCE. Tobin Jackson was the proprietor of the infamous Deer Run kennels that bred show champion English Mastiffs for nearly 40 years. He was regarded as a little more than a puppy mill by many of his fellow Mastiff fanciers and his lines are now known to have spread a lot of genetic defects such as epilepsy throughout the Mastiff gene pool in America. Today you will find breeders advertising Mastiffs as “no Deer Run lines”. But due to the fact Tobin was one of the most well known Mastiff kennels of the time it is he and his dogs who appear in “Pit Bulls and Tenacious Guard Dogs”. During several conversations with the author of this book, he mentioned that when Tobin was interviewed there were no “Canary Dogs” (as he likes to call them) on the premises but had discussed the breed with Tobin while visiting. Not long after these dogs appeared at Deer Run kennels. Tobin had 2 notable dogs at his kennel, Enrico and Arbaco. Enrico was a tall, narrowly built black brindle male who sired many litters for Deer Run. However when Tobin retired from dogs in 1993 little was mentioned regarding Enrico and it was rumored that he took this dog with him, wherever it was he left NJ for. Enrico has few desendents left today. The other male, Deer Run Arbaco (AKA Panda Turf Arbaco) , 29” of blue brindle dog about 4 years old was sold to Mac Harris of Panda Turf kennels. It is Arbaco who had more influence in the American dogs through many more years of continued breedings with his new owner. Arbaco is the major foundation for what is known as the Deer Run line today. At the time of Arbaco’s birth the Presa Canario was not yet accepted by the RSCE (Spain’s national kennel club) but however, was in its recovery stages via the CEPRC. Arbaco was initially stated as having been imported from the country of Honduras. First mysterious question…. Who goes to South America to import a dog barely known in its native land? The Presa Canario of that time was NOT exported out of Spain with any frequency although a few predecessors of the dogs (foundation presa types) possibly were brought with Canarians who immigrated to those countries. These would not have been purebred or recognized Presa Canario. Later when pedigrees began to be shared it was noted that Arbaco was born from Deer Run Luis (also spelled the English way Louis) and Deer Run Reba, also from Deer Run Louis and Deer Run Isabel and also Deer Run Amore and Deer Run Louise…. which any parents you pick would indicate that Arbaco was born of Deer Run owned dogs and with 3 sets of parents completely made up. The first story is completely false, the second story is partly true. Arbaco was a result of a crossbreeding between a Neapolitan Mastiff, which was also being produced by Deer Run kennels at that time and an American Staffordshire Terrier…. Or in todays common term: a Bandogge. Forget for a moment that his origin is without documentation and simply know that is coat was the steel grey (aka blue) of a Neapolitan or Great Dane. This alone disregards him as ever being a Presa Canario. He is the one of the most notable false dog found in the pedigrees of many American Presas. Kennels that founded their breeding around this blue mongrel and other Deer Run dogs included Panda Turf, Werewolf, Tiger Guard and even Show Stoppers, though they deny this today. Show Stoppers bought several puppies directly from Deer Run kennels and when Tobin retired also bought some of his adult breeding stock. One particular dog was a female named Deer Run Justice, previously owned by Zeek Gibbs friend of Tobin’s, who appeared on their promotional video back in 94 or 95. Suspiciously, you won’t find her in the pedigree of any Show Stopper dog, although on the video she’s shown pregnant. In fact they’ve removed all traces of Deer Run lineage from their dogs. The information from one of the Kelly daughters was that her father purchased these puppies from the kennel manager of Deer Run, who’s name was only given as “Jeff” who was allegedly skimming puppies off the top and selling them for his own profit rather than reporting the births to Tobin. Arbaco sired such dogs as Panda Turf Abu, (fawn- blue mask) who in turn sired Jerry Curtis kennels male Macho (who in turn sired Sanders Kennels Neno), who’s been falsely portrayed as a Spanish import by his owners and has sired hundreds of puppies over the years. Macho puppies can be found all over the US and while his mother Daza was an import, his sire is none other than Arbaco. Another foundation daughter of Arbaco is (werewolf) Zuma (blue brindle). Werewolf is founded on Deer Run lines and Arbaco and blue brindle and fawn with blue mask and pigment is an all too common occurance in her kennel. Over half of her breeding dogs are of this (non existant) coloration. Eric Schmidt was another to perpetuate the Arbaco dogs and you’ll find them throughout the NJ/PA area. Though Eric is no longer breeding, his dogs continue mainly through Tiger Guard kennel. Schmidt’s Ella (also blue brindle) who is found in the pedigrees of many Tiger Guard dogs via her blue brindle son by Schmidt’s Bullrog (himself white with blue brindle patches) named Tiger Guard Sher Kahn. Sher Kahn was the sire to several litters at Tiger Guard including Tiger Guard Zeus. Tiger Guard is also responsible for the “rare” red dogs with red pigmentation. These dogs come from his foundation female Jaguar, a Dogue de Bordeaux mix. Not only will you find the Dogue coloration in Tiger Guard dogs, but many more physical traits of the Dogue such as yellow eyes, short and wrinkled muzzles, prominent underbites and large voluminous heads. None of these traits are typical in a Presa Canario. All one has to do is examine the published pedigree of Jaguar to see the truth. None of these dogs existed in Spain. [/blockquote]

This is the type of info, I like to read, right here! The information you're providing is so helpful in trying to better the breed! Hope you continue posting more! Also is there any dogs off the top of your head that you could probably point back to the deer run lines that are in SS today?

What do you mean Johan? Falsifieing documents? What is a pure breed?

Yea but every dog that is terrier x mastiff cant be called a presa or a bandog. There is more to these mixes than a body and head type. For example color, I speak for myself when I say I' not trying to have presas go down the same road as pits. All these exotic colors and what nots. Lets stick to the standard when it comes to color, temperament, body, head, and all the other things that make a breed a breed! Arbaco was a handsome dog, just not a presa canario at all. Then people try to use this throw back crap as an excuse for throwing these out of standards pups, its a giving that sometime there will be throwbacks, depending on how far these lines go back. Because there are some line you cant trace back with a pencil on paper! Also no one knows what was really in the 'original' presas because they went bye bye, but what the recreation was supposed to do was use certain dog breeds that had resembled the dogs of old.

Yea I am willing to bet my life on it- I see presas with too short of a nose, wrong color eyes and I have seen the corsi's with to long a muzzel, incorrect heads and more. Those are the breeders that I wish there was a law against honestly!

[quote1267736285=snook] When talking about black and %of white it really depends. I'm not a elpresa follower. I go by fci standards. An black more than a white blaze white on toes or chest is wrong to me. I used to go by presa standards but learned quicly breeders that bred to that standard dogs have no type. There should be uniformity in any breed like rotties an such. I started noticing that every dog on elpresa looked different like a bunch of different breeds. An they brag about working but those guys never come out an work. So I've came to believe black too much white an no type = impure. Remember just because it looks like it an bites likes. Dosent make them pure. Take a look at some of curtos dogs. An tell me you don't see the neo influence. Impure [/quote1267736285] Uniformity is always a good a thing but at what price? Am I willing to sacrafice function for uniformity NOPE. I have seen bullshit 'presas' and bullshit 'dogo's', so just because one group looks like neo influence, or pit influence, or whatever doesn't mean it's right. Im starting to see in 'dogo' lines heavy resemblance of shorter bullmastiffs. I know both standards calls for dark mask but some dogs now have mask like no other dog in their ped or that I have seen from the past. Also I follow the standard that allows white and black, Im not gonna change what's been in existence before me for the sake of uniformity. Ok well let me pose this question to you, if these dogs had no previous standard, their only standard was to work how can you justify ANY STANDARD? There are dogs of old that wouldn't fit into the FCI standard but if you do your research are in some FCI lines so explain that to me. Standards are man made, for man preference.

[quote1268061300=snook] My friend again. When you breed you breed to get better dogs. One day they were all presa the next two different breeds. Just depends on who you believe. The presa was being recreated for such a long time how could you make a standard for a breed not fully developed yet? When the standard was set the goal set out for was reached. I follow fci because those other guys yap yap yap about working there dogs. But look an see how many titled presas there are then look up dogos. Get my drift. Where are they working them in the basement. Sures hell not at working events. Again judgin the questions you had only two years ago. You're still a rook. You know more then people that have been around before the fci even existed huh? Believe me my friend you haven't even craked the surface dude. Stay online a couple more years then let's debate. Its a waste of time now cause you no it all. [/quote1268061300] 1) My uncle has had "dogo's" for as long as I can remember pre FCI and all that, so just because I asked some questions 2 years ago, because it's when I found the forum isn't an accurate way of judging my knowledge. 2) I have worked a lot of dogs both dogo and presa some from the board, but what I have come to find out is that everyone on the internet "works" these great dogs until you meet them in person. I could go on and on and on about some of the presa and dogo's Ive worked and call out names of some of these GREAT BREEDERS that I read on the DC forum and PC forum but it's not benefitial to me. 3) I dont know it all, I have my beliefs from my own research, Im learning everyday and everynight. Ask Carla somethings I agree with somethings I dont, but it doesn't make me right or you wrong. I just want to know how only FCI dogs are "pure" in your words, or how you can see the neo influence in curto's dog but no bullmastiff in several "pure" lines. Im always open for a good discussion regarding dogs, but like most people on the internet, when someone challenges their info, they take offense instead furthering their debate. So yea I'll stay on the internet for a few more years and then we will talk!!arrogant