Bandogs made by the cross APBT x Fila Brasileiro

[quote=brazillianbandogge] The health problems have been deleted using the ancient methods of natural selection observing the dogs in the field doing many workings.[/quote] I would like to see actual scientific proof of this claim. Documented by an unbiased scientific organisation.

[quote=LeeRobinson]Ok...go to the OFA website and look up the stats on the following breeds...breeds that were selected on the basis of function and ability to work and perform. Ask and you shall receive. http://www.offa.org/stats.html Remember though, the OFA testing didn't make these dogs great or terrible. What made them great was performance testing and what made them terrible is show breeding for non-function. It is always the same old same old nonsense from Brad...but Brad, some day I hope you open your mind to the truth...and wise up. Husky, APBT, and other HISTORICALLY working dogs seen in the best 25% best. The FIRST number is the rank (higher number being best, 1 being worst). The LAST number is the percent displastic (1ower being best, higher being worse). DOBERMAN PINSCHER 113 12814 17.7 6.1 KERRY BLUE TERRIER 114 1273 12.6 6.0 FINNISH SPITZ 115 292 17.1 5.8 AFGHAN HOUND 116 5950 28.9 5.8 AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 117 24292 15.2 5.8 SHIBA INU 118 2211 17.1 5.7 TIBETAN TERRIER 119 3148 29.6 5.7 DUTCH SHEPHERD 120 108 20.4 5.6 ENGLISH COCKER SPANIEL 121 5643 16.9 5.6 BELGIAN MALINOIS 122 1808 17.3 5.6 SCHIPPERKE 123 317 9.8 5.4 RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK 124 8748 21.0 5.4 IRISH WOLFHOUND 125 1382 26.2 5.4 NORTH AMERICAN SHEPHERD 126 327 16.5 5.2 DALMATIAN 127 2751 9.1 4.8 SHETLAND SHEEPDOG 128 15396 26.9 4.8 SOFT COATED WHEATEN TERRIER 129 5100 16.0 4.6 GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER 130 12291 24.3 4.5 FLAT-COATED RETRIEVER 131 4236 17.6 4.4 BORDER TERRIER 132 1753 18.6 3.7 BELGIAN TERVUREN 133 4695 24.8 3.6 IBIZAN HOUND 134 245 35.1 3.3 BASENJI 135 1882 23.6 3.2 BELGIAN SHEEPDOG 136 3320 32.0 2.8 COLLIE 137 2459 28.1 2.7 GREYHOUND 138 298 36.6 2.3 RAT TERRIER 139 186 11.3 2.2 SIBERIAN HUSKY 140 15273 32.8 2.0 PHARAOH HOUND 141 352 15.1 2.0 CANAAN 142 346 16.2 2.0 AUSTRALIAN TERRIER 143 155 5.2 1.9 WHIPPET 144 106 30.2 1.9 BORZOI 145 789 30.7 1.8 SALUKI 146 241 43.2 1.7 GERMAN PINSCHER 147 208 25.0 1.0 ITALIAN GREYHOUND And then compare them to the worst 25% found in show dogs...such as... BULLDOG 1 383 0.3 73.9 PUG 2 342 0.0 62.6 DOGUE DE BORDEAUX 3 256 0.4 55.9 OTTERHOUND 4 280 0.0 50.7 NEAPOLITAN MASTIFF 5 136 0.7 48.5 ST. BERNARD 6 1960 4.2 46.7 CLUMBER SPANIEL 7 626 2.9 45.0 BLACK RUSSIAN TERRIER 8 170 2.4 44.7 SUSSEX SPANIEL 9 203 1.0 44.3 CANE CORSO 10 452 6.9 39.6 BOYKIN SPANIEL 11 1968 1.2 37.5 ARGENTINE DOGO 12 128 3.9 37.5 BASSET HOUND 13 186 0.0 36.0 FRENCH BULLDOG 14 419 1.2 33.9 AMERICAN BULLDOG 15 1328 5.1 32.8 NORFOLK TERRIER 16 172 0.0 32.0 PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO 17 115 3.5 30.4 FILA BRASILEIRO 18 574 7.3 29.1 ENGLISH SHEPHERD 19 207 6.8 25.6 NEWFOUNDLAND 20 12586 7.2 25.6 BLOODHOUND 21 2383 2.4 25.5 AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 22 2367 1.9 25.4 LOUISIANA CATAHOULA LEOPARD 23 341 7.3 25.2 BULLMASTIFF 24 4500 3.6 24.5[/quote] Where are the statistic for the mutt,,,oh excuse me, I mean Bandog :roll: :roll: FYI: Your own distinction between "working" and "show" breeds is laughable. Shiba Inu are amongst the best (in good hip scores) and in Japan, Europe and the USA the Shiba in modern times such as these are 90% pets and showdogs while the English Shepard and the Catahoula are 90% on working farms and niether are recognized by either FCI or AKC. Nice try though.

[quote="LeeRobinson"]"Brad The Ostrich Cofield" I will let you figure out why I give you that name. :roll:[/quote] Pat yourself on the back Harold, you deserve it :roll: :idea: . Back to the topic at hand. Where is the documented proof that these dogs are totally free of any genetic or enviormentally induced health problem?

[quote=LeeRobinson]Ostrich, "totally free" would be incorrect. MUCH MUCH MUCH less likely however is a fact. Not only on hips, but working breeds are healthier all around. If you don't accept it, that's fine...keep your head in the sand. However, you asked for the facts, and I gave you a link that correlates the frequency of several disorders to various breeds. Funny however how the breeds that do the best are also breeds that were developed not from show, but from working origins. http://www.offa.org/stats.html Study up.[/quote] None of your dogs are or have been tested. None of your claims can be backed by any independant scientific body. Again, I am asking where is the scientific proof?

Show me the scientific proof.

[quote=LeeRobinson]Casting pearls to swine apparently is a useless task. Before I give you any more scientific proof, pull your head out of the sand and look at the data already provided.[/quote] You showed me statistics from the OFA database (you do not use OFA but that is another topic) and thatis all well and good. BUT, that database does not show any statistical data for mutts. Where is the scientific proof that mutts are totally free from genetic problems?

[quote=brazillianbandogge]This topic have been creating to discuss about Fila x APBT crosses. Please do not polluted here with those statement just to increase your points in molossos...[/quote] YOu made a very strong claim. When you do that you should expect people to ask you to back that claim up.

[quote=LeeRobinson]It has nothing to do with "mutts," but performance selection. Dogs that are bred and tested to work may not be perfect and flawless...but they are VASTLY superior in health and ability to dogs traditionally bred for show or non-working purposes. You know why working dogs are more able and healthier??? Because if the dog has a problem it isn't excused but instead removed from the breeding stock. Show breeders however don't remove a dog that is unhealthy if it looks good. In fact, many breeds are often bred to look pathetic on purpose...take the Neapolitan Mastiff, Sharpea, or English Bulldog...distorted on purpose. And, it is no wonder those breeds top the list with problems.[/quote] You do zero genetic testing. Harold, you have no idea what you have and what you don't simply because you have never tested any of it. If you want to hype the mutts you produce go ahead. Want to say that they are the best thing since sliced bread, fine. However, you cannot state that they are "healthier" than anything else simple because you do not know. Again, where is the scientific proof? I know I am supposed to believe you and the other mutt wonderkids because you guys tell me so, that just doesn't fly with me.

[quote=LeeRobinson]If you don't want to believe me, fine. Don't. That is your choice. Keep your head in the sand. HOWEVER, if you wish to do that, then don't waste my time asking me questions...because I gave you an answer. Now, it is your job to do the research (investigate the data provided). I have spent the last several hours working with 10 different pups. Spent the day working with 7 different dogs. What have you done? Typed on a message board and wasted my time. That is why I call you an ostrich and that is why having a conversation with you is throwing pearls to swine. To me, you are just a frustrating irritant that has no desire to pursue the truth. I think the board was FAR BETTER when Brad Cofield was banned. Why the administration keeps letting you come back, I have no idea. In biology they have a term for your types. Parasite. You do nothing but harm the host (the board).[/quote] Go ahead and call me all the names you want. I will endorse those names as a badge of honor. Back to the topic at hand: Where is the scientific data to prove that mutts (Bandogs, Swinfords, Uncl'e Billy's Miracle Dogs, Puff The Magic Dragon etc.) are totally free from any genetic problems? I'm waiting.

[quote="LeeRobinson"]. However, what you will see is I stated PERFORMANCE TESTED WORKING DOGS (any breed...mutt or cross) have MUCH FEWER problems than non-performance SHOW dogs./quote] Where is your scientifically based documented proof of this?

[quote=brazillianbandogge"][quote="LeeRobinson]BrazilianBandogge, To help get this topic back on topic...do you have any video footage of any fila bred bandogs doing any off leash protection work. Personally, I have found the fila to be very defensive, but to lack nerve and lack the confidence needed for off leash work...so if you have any footage of such I would enjoy seeing it.[/quote] My breeding program have been designed to fit the Brazilian Farmes needs. In my standard anyone could read that the temperament and conformation have this focus. The farmers do not need trainning dog .....they need a dog that do not eat to much, less agressive with all domestic animals, medium size 40kg, and rustic , resistent to all disease common here and protective with ojeriza to strangers. The guardian style is for defend the family, a home guardian. The rusticity is the major focus. The old filas from 1900's used by farmers were sort of dogs that received from time to time some infusion of pure Bulldogs and MAstiffs also hounds and these is the real fila a dog with vigor passing by the new blood and with natural selection. The modern tests are a good tools like OFA exams but the farmers dont like papers they like to see the rusticity. To be more clearly the average % of mortality in my kennels in farm places is around 90% .So just 10% survive from young age to adult. NATURAL SELECTION.[/quote] Again, where is the documented scientific proof that your mutts are resistent to all disease ? I am not talking about your own self promotion, but the documented scientific proof.

Lee doing some punching instead of being punched,lol. What titles would you suggest for Brazilian Bandogge?

Titles are absolutley necessary, because they are objective mesures of success. Who would buy from an auto tuner who doesn't race? Just "certifing" one's own dogs or showing videos and pictures of dogs playing fechty fechy and tug of war on the sleeve proves little to nothing. Kind of like that non racing auto tuner just showing videos of a guy pulling donuts in a parking lot,,,wow, big deal.

[quote="LeeRobinson"]Coming from a person that has never worked a dog in his life and has only bred show dogs...I can understand why you don't know what to look for even if a video was provided for you; however, some people would know what to look for...and for those of us that do a good video (if done right) can tell me more about a [u]dog[/u] than any title.[/quote] Well, coming from someone who has never gotten a show title, working title, temperment certification or health clearance of any kind I will take your comment with the lage grain of salt it deserves. The fact remains that working titles for people that claim to breed working dogs are absolutley essential and should be demanded by that client base. Us "show people" are unlikely to by from a breeder that doesn't show and just claims that they have superior stock. I do not see why "working dog" people should not demand the same level of subjective excellence? Again, I will use the auto tuner analogy. Why would someone dedicated to high performance buy a high performance engine from a company with no history of racing? Answer, they wouldn't.

Lee, How would your dogs react if a kid accidently wonders on your yard searching for his ball? Or anyones dogs?

[quote="LeeRobinson"]It doesn't take a title to prove a dog. The dog can do that. A video can do it as well. I don't work for holiwood and create sci-fi type fictional videos...what you see is what you get. Actually, you get more than what you see...because some things are not for public eye. And the best part Brad is our dogs make it easy. As far as comparing stuff to the auto industry or any other industry...a title doesn't mean anything to them. If someone pulled up with a better engine and could prove it to them with a simple demonstration...they wouldn't tell the designer to leave and go get a title. :lol: They would want it before it was patented or purchased by someone else. Senor, First off, I don't tollerate unwarranted aggresion nor do I tollerate trespasswers...however, there are many "conditions" to your question. First...Am I there? Or am I not there? Is the dog socialized or not? Also, it would depend on the kid. Boy, girl, how old, child? Teenager? little? Big? Day? Night? etc... That is why I live in the middle of no where and have posted property.[/quote] Of course you can say that Lee, you have never had a dog proven by subjective means and I doubt you ever will.

You have never earned any titles, performance certifications or health certfications and have never produced anything that has earned any either. Those are the facts at hand.