Feral dogs.

I am wondering if a CAO would be a suitable choice. I live on 100 acre bush block next to 400 acres of state forest. This in turn is surrounded by 1000's of acres of state forest, well tens of thousands really with small amounts of private property mixed in. I have no livestock. I am after a dog to protect me as I walk around and fossick for gold. I have only lived here for a year and a half and have been told by local people that the feral dogs are large and aggressive. I have seen them when driving around and they appear the size of a GSD but shorter in the body. A woodcutter told me about one in the state forest near me twice the size of a GSD that came up to his 4WD growling.

My Bullarab died last August after he killed a platypus and it stung him on the throat. The vet could not save him. He took 4 days to die. On day two I was coming out of the bush and spotted two feral dogs running off Dingo colouring but much larger than a dingo. It appeared that they were tracking me and my dog. I asked a CAO breeder who also breeds ASD for livestock guardian work and they thought this was probably the case. I bought an Akita from the pound one month after my Bullarab died. He is about 3 years old. He has HD can get around OK but cant run very fast. He has a gentle temperament and is dog and human friendly. I have owned a fierce male Akita and he is nothing like this.

I have been told to get a CAO bitch by the breeder as a male would push him around too much. The CAO breeder thought that a CAO would be a better choice than an ASD on feral dogs.

I don't know how well a CAO would bond with me. In Australia the choice of breeds is limited. I don't like AB's as the one I had was bad around cattle. There are scrub cattle around so I'd rather go with a LGD. Anyone have some thoughts on whether a LGD would function as a gold fossicker's protector from feral dogs?

Thanks. Would it be possible to get access to the websites of the CAO breeders you recommend in the USA? I am not sure about importing a dog due to the costs involved but I'd love to have a look at their dogs and ask them a question or two. CAO are still a rare breed in Australia and their price is 2000-3000 dollars depending on quality.

The CAO breeder I have had been talking to has tried to import a CO recently without success. I wish Australia was more like the USA in this regard as there is so much paranoia in relation to breed specific legislation.

Looks wise I prefer the look of a CAO to an Anatolian shepherd dog. In Australia to my limited knowledge the ASD and Kangals all come from the same bloodlines. They separated the two breeds back in 1999 I think. As of January 2012 both have been placed under the one breed, Anatolian shepherd dog.

Do they have bloat problems with CAO in the USA? It appears to be a problem here but so far no can tell me if it is genetic or diet related. Other than bloat I have been assured that the CAO is a very hardy breed with good robust health into old age.

Thanks desiree for your opinion. I also prefer the leaner looking more natural looking CAO for appearance. I only know of three breeders in Australia and they all seem to have the heavy CAO type.

I was told by the breeder with CAO and Anatolian shepherd dogs that she has never had bloat as a problem with the ASD.

When I had Bullarabs they could individually kill small feral dogs dingo size where I used to live in north Queensland. One I had would kill more than one out of the pack at a time. Trouble is they are a hunting dog that need to go hunting and mine could be dangerous on livestock if I didn't take them out enough. This is why I would rather go with a LGD.

Any ideas about a LGD breed that has better health and less problems?

I was having a look at the Sarplaninac forum. They sound interesting and they come in a smaller size than CAO as well which appeals to me. They were also mentioned as not being big eaters(of their food) as well.

I think there is one breeder in Australia. I'll check it out.

the Presas know? while the Presa Canario is used to guard livestock and guard property, is a strong dog and also used in combat, if you take blood lines of work are functional in every way.

I have some and I know a lot of the race, if you want more information just tell me

The Presa is a banned breed in Australia, but would probably have fit the bill quite well. Maybe you could consider another of the mastiff types? A good bandog would be more than a match for almost all feral dogs, and would more than likely be extremely happy just to potter around your land with you looking for gold.

Thanks soldiermonkey and Raulillo. I haven't had anything to do with the Bandog breed. When living in Qld I made one enquiry about them. They were breeding them in Rockhampton and sending them up far north as pig dogs. Every week I'd see them for sale in the Cairns post.

From what little I understand with a Neo crossing there can be hip problems. I guess I could say the same about any mastiff cross. I remember reading some where that in Western Australia there were some good crosses using Bullmastiff.

In NSW I don't know. Know anyone in Aus that breeds good Bandogs?

In relation to LGD and Bandogs even American bulldogs I have a few questions.

Since my Bullarab died last August I've been asking lots of questions to two breeders. One has CAO and ASD. The other has ASD. What keeps coming up in the back of my mind is this scenario. I'm out there with my new ASD or CAO looking for gold. Say the dog is a couple of years old. I meet someone the dog doesn't like for whatever reason. Next thing I'm being prosecuted, taken to court for manslaughter in the worst case.

I'm saying this because the distrust of strangers issue kept coming up when I talked to them. Both these breeders are friends. The one with CAO has a male that won't tolerate their ASD breeder friend. Same goes for an ASD the CAO breeder has as well. Except in this case it's pretty much everybody it doesn't trust.

I had an American bulldog-Athletic for a Johnson bulldog. She didn't like strangers but was still manageable without having to worry about her biting them if I was there. She loved cattle for blood sport. No matter what I did she would go after cattle any chance she got. They would toss her and stomp on her, it didn't matter what they did. If I couldn't get her away she'd wear them down through sheer persistence. Therefore I'm wary about getting another.

I think a Bandog would be OK if it tolerated strangers enough but didn't want to beat up cattle. It's a pity there aren't more breeds in Australia.

I tried contacting Boerboel breeders here but for some reason they never reply to my emails. My emails always mentioned the purpose I wanted a dog for so maybe that's why.

Anyway I'm reading the Bandog forums now. Next one will be Boerboels.

Well I got my bandog from a breeder who is also a member on this site, manstopperkennels. My boy is only 19 weeks old, but early signs are that he will be a damn good dog. I have put a few photos of him up. You should check em out and research them some, before you decide which way you want to go.

Thank you soldiermonkey and manstopperkennels. That dog steel sure has a good looking head for a dog only 6.5 months.

I'll check out Powerhause kennels right now.

a good bandog can also be a right choice, find someone to do interesting crosses. depends on the breeding plan are different from one side to another.

With the Presa Canario is as easy as registering it in another way, as bandog for example, race or other similar

Hi Raulillo. I see what you mean about Presa Canario. I think its the same with APBT in Australia. They are trying to make it harder here all the time with breed specific legislation. Still plenty of Lil rascals around but their poor owners now are faced with this BSL along with all the mindless haters out there.

Interesting that they allow American Bulldogs but not Presas or APBTs.  The chasing cattle issue is going to have to be corrected in a bandog also, as many of the bandogs are composed of breeds used to hunt large game such as feral hogs.  If you have a friend with cattle, go there often while the dog is a pup and correct any chasing behavior while the dog is young.  You will have much more control with a bandog or American Bulldog, because both breeds are much more eager to please than a CAO or Anatolian Shepherd.  Livestock guarding dogs are typically very independent and not necessarily very fast to respond to commands without a lot of training.

Thanks nkuhlwind. Yes Australia is a funny place. They follow the UK when it comes to dog legislation. Interested to hear your advice about Bandogs.It makes a lot of sense. I know a place where I introduced my Akita to cattle after I got him.

It's looking like a Bandog will be my choice. I emailed Powerhause kennels and put my name on a puppy waiting list for a pup from their smaller more athletic line.

Thanks for confirming my doubts about choosing a CAO or ASD due to their independent nature.

Man sorry about your arab, what a horrible way to go I've heard a hook from a platypus is the most painful experience in the world, don't want to bum you out but if that happens to a dog of yours again make sure you just put it down asap.

Not sure how many caos there are in australia, I've definitely heard of a couple being here but not sure if they were bred here or individually imported. We have good maremmas and anatolians/kangals. Any lgd would do really. Reckon you could get away with a rottie or bandog or bullmastiff as well. But yeah if you have your heart set on a cao I'm sure you could get one but it might cost a lot.

Thanks tonedog it was really disheartening to watch him die like that.

I found out that the CAO breeder who's bitch Asian Legends Danara (imp) failed to get pregnant to A.I.

I also found out today that Powerhause kennels bitch Dashka didn't get pregnant to A.I. as well.

Oh well, I guess I've got plenty of time to keep looking.

I don't think Rotties would fit the bill. I've owned two dog and bitch. Not wishing to go into it, they lack the skill to deal with dog on dog confrontations. A dominant Akita would be a more useful choice.

I don't know about Bullmastiffs  never having owned one. There might be ones out there tough enough. My Johnson bulldog would cope pretty well in a scrap, unless she was on the receiving end of my first Akita's discipline. She didn't have a chance then being totally out skilled.

Bandogs sound interesting to me. I really like the look of some of the lighter built ones in the USA. They look that functional.

I know what you're saying about rotties but I wonder how much combative skill is really gonna be required, I mean feral dogs are pretty wary and most any dog with a surly attitude and a little bit of size is gonna make them keep a good distance. From what I know of feral dogs in qld you're actually pretty lucky to see one, that's even if you're in an area that is crawling with them because they're very cunning when it comes to moving around unseen in rural areas. If you had livestock that would be another story and I'd say a livestock guardian is a good idea, but just as a companion to watch your back and keep them away I think really your options open up substantially and nearly any dog would do the trick.

A bandog is IMO the ultimate personal protector regardless of what it's protecting you from, it's just their nature to bond close to a person and be mindful staying close to you and etc etc. This pretty much applies to breeds like boerboels, bullmastiffs, presas and neo mastiffs and etc as well. And yeah rotties as well but if you don't like rottis don't get one, most important IMO is getting something that interests you that you'll be enthusiastic to take proper care of. Another akita wouldn't be a bad choice, I mean it's just the individual you have now that's over-friendly, that could happen with any breed, chances are if you got another one it probably wouldn't be like that.

Absolutely any dog can be very easily trained to not go after livestock, as long as there is livestock around for you to practice walking them around from a young age. Even working hunting pig dogs are all livestock broken pretty much so I don't think breed really matters in that department. I guess the problem with hunting dogs though is they would be inclined to wander away from you while you fossick for gold so probably better off sticking to lgds or bull/mastiff types (bandogs, boerboels, bullmastiffs etc).

Unless you want to actually nail the feral dogs and take them out, then a staghound/wolfhound or even another bull arab would be ideal. No better defense than a good offense, feral dogs won't stick around in an area where they're actively persecuted.

Good luck anyway, sounds like you're living the dream to me out fossicking for gold in the bush with dogs, lol.

The AI was done with the CAO because it was off an International champion that lives overseas. You would be better off asking Manstopper about his breeding practices with Bandogges than me.

Thanks for the CAO link to the USA kennel.

I'm really impressed by Powerhause kennels. Graham always responds promptly to my emails. He is very helpful.

I've been in correspondence with Sandarr kennels in Scotland about Boerboels. They have been giving me lots of info as well.

Think a Bandog is to be my choice.

Thanks Tone dog. Bullarabs aren't for me now. Had 4 when I lived in Nth Qld. Was a pig hunter but no longer.

The feral dogs I encountered up there were little ones and shy. Had a Dogo(don't ask me where I got it) that went after one Dane sized though.

The locals here at Billys creek tell me that they kill dogs here. Same at Dalmortan one and a half hours away.At Jackadjery same thing. North of Grafton as well. So if I want to make sure about safety I think ..........       I'll listen to them.

Sorry Admin. I was on the phone when typing. The frozen semen used on Takasvolkodav's CAO bitch Asian Legends Danara (imp) was from some that was six years old. Lilli from Takas who I admire for her dedication to improve CAO and ASD in Australia gave it a last shot. It hadn't worked on Billyjean (RIP) either.

This poor lady has been trying to import a CAO who's pet name is Shamash since November of 2010. It has cost her thirty thousand dollars so far and he still isn't in Australia yet. She has a CAO dog here called Brasco but he represents a type that is available in Australia through Alibai farm or Ascamalat.

If Lilli can't get Shamash into Australia Brasco will be her next choice for a mating.

Thanks Gary. I was having a look at the websites of Powerhause and Southern Cross for Australian Bandogs. There was an American Pitbull forum with a section on Bandogs showing Lucero dogs. They look really functional. I'd seen Lucero's Jaws and Lucero's Sha-Nae-Nae in a book by Carl Semencic written over ten years ago. They were saying on the forum that the dogs aren't outcrossed by F4 generation. I guess that's why they look like an actual breed and not a hybrid.

I was looking on youtube at dogs under Bandog heading and it looks like anything goes. Fair enough I suppose when I think about all the different blends mentioned on the forums here.

I checked out maxomagic CAO kennel. They have some very nice looking dogs. Two of the bitches Angel and A'sietsky looked really pretty to me.

Graham of Powerhause kennels sent me links to Bandog breeders Mind changing kennels and Bluejays. Amazing dogs.

I was checking out daggerkennels.com who have APBT up to 136 pounds. Sure I couldn't get one due to BSL but was interested to know if APBT are used on feral dogs in the deep south of USA? My reasons for asking are based on an interview I read with John D Johnson. He was saying that his dog Dick the Bruiser could kill 6 feral dogs at one time. He also said they were at least GSD size. His American bulldog Dick the bruiser weighed only 95 pounds.

Now considering the skill of an APBT I would have thought they would be an ideal candidate to deal with feral dogs.

Do you want to kill the feral dogs or ward them off? Two totally different things that call for two totally different types of dogs that are really opposite from one another. A big lgd will ward them and send them away with probably no injuries being exchanged, a bullbreed is going to break it's neck trying it's hardest to kill them and stop them from getting away, many injuries will be exchanged both ways regardless of how good at fighting it is. It might kill a pack of them but due to the fact it forced the fight it will take injuries from it's desperate victims.

It's only saving grace would be the fact it's probably too slow to catch a feral dog.

Hi Tonedog. Over the past 12 months I've been talking to two LGD breeders a fair bit about LGD reaction to a feral dogs. There is a good forum on dolforums.com.au. It's called Livestock guardian dogs. The general consensus of opinion is as follows. CAO - go straight into combat. Kill the dog, then track the others down. ASD - give warning bark,then if dog does not go away kill it then track others down.It kind of has a scale of ferocity with CAO at the top(in Australia), next down ASD then all the others. I was told by Lilli of Takasvolkodav to get a CAO as they have the inclination and power to deal with any feral dog threat in Australia. She told me that only a harder edged ASD would be suitable. I started this thread because I was starting to think maybe a CAO or a hard edged ASD would be too much dog for me. So I'm open to suggestions.I think your statements about LGD are questionable.

I'd like to talk about American bulldogs from lines other than pure Johnson. I'd like to hear about Bandogs on feral dogs. I'd appreciate it if you or anyone you know has had experience with Bandogs, American bulldogs or Amstaffs on feral dogs in Australia. To reiterate I'd also like to know if anyone in USA is using APBT on feral dogs. Thanks.

Don't get me wrong a cao could easily kill a feral dog, or multiple feral dogs one after the other. Easily. The thing is to actually achieve this in real life scenarios a heightened prey-drive and a tonne of speed is necessary, or insane rabid feral dogs, because real feral dogs aren't going to push their luck, they're going to high-tail it as soon as they feel the risk outweighs the reward, which is fairly close to immediately after a cao even looks at them.

You can choose to listen to the stories of breeders with obvious clear agendas to hype up their breed, OR you can learn from the leading scientist that studied livestock guardians around the world. Ray Coppinger. He has written books and scientific peer reviewed articles on the subject and through his countless years of in-field analysis he has determined a full on fight between lgd and predator is exceedingly rare, and an lgd killing a predator even rarer. It's not a real part of the job, their job is to protect livestock from predators in the most practical way possible. The frankly infantile under-reasoned assumption is that the LGDs must have epic fights with predators and maybe even kill them, etc etc. This for starters would make no sense, for LGDs to force unnecessary fights on predators happy to move on, it will just result in them getting injured (win or lose) which will then subsequently negatively effect their ability to defend the livestock- the whole point of utmost importance, as opposed to kicking ass in fights with wild animals, which isn't important at all. And the prey drive to kill a large animal that's happy to run away and escape, that's a rare quality reserved for intense hunting dogs, the antithesis of livestock guardians in every respect. An lgd knows it's defending it's flock from a threat, it's focus isn't on determinedly killing the predator for fun. That attitude can only be found in a predatory hunting dog.

A bulldog/bullterrier type dog mentally will have that frame of mind to want to kill the feral dog and be determined to do it, but physically the dogs are just going to be too slow to ever catch a feral dog. They'll just be enthusiastically plodding along behind the feral dogs that will disappear into the wilderness. The only dogs that actually kill feral dogs regularly aren't lgds or bulldogs, they're sighthounds. You said your bull arab used to kill feral dogs, I can assure that doesn't come down to fighting ability or protectiveness it comes down to speed and prey drive. A dog with less of each (which includes all the dogs you're talking about) won't be catching any feral dogs. 
Which to me sounds like a good thing for what you're after, an lgd sounds perfect for you but don't expect to see any feral dogs get killed or even beaten up. They're not gonna get caught by an lgd or bandog or bulldog unless they through circumstance get cornered or caught by surprise or whatever. It could be considered a strange freak occurrence. I had a bandog catch and kill a fox once, but that's pretty unusual and happened because the fox found itself cornered.

I'm not saying a cao lacks the ability to kill feral dogs at all, it's ability is gross overkill in fact. But feral dogs flee, so the killing or fighting ability of the cao isn't the issue, it's the hunting ability to pursue and catch and kill a fleeing feral dog. Having the mentality and anatomical design to do that, it doesn't. Not that I see why this "shortcoming" would be a problem. Unless you want to rid the area of feral dogs, in which case get a staghound, even could keep it in a duo with a cao. Then you'd have all your bases covered.

Thanks for the info Tonedog. Yes I can only listen to them not having owned a LGD. Bullarabs seemed to be pretty good at it. Jethro my first one when he first did it I thought what's he drowning that little pig in the creek for. Get closer and see its a feral dog who's back he broke. He was just moving his head from side to side like he was trying to wash it. He took off one day after a pack of them. I heard their barking and howling and carrying on. He comes back soaking wet with the top of his head covered in blood. No more barking from them. I washed the blood off to see if he was cut. Not a mark on him.

A fellow I knew at Malanda had some pretty crazy Bullarabs. He caught his big male one day drowning the neighbours Old English Mastiff. They are really good at it.

The feral dogs at Topaz used to kill the dairy cattle. They would chew their udders out. The farmer who owned the cattle appreciated my dogs being around. Two of my dogs(bullarabs) got out one night. I heard them barking and thought their just onto a pig down in the rainforest. Let them have some fun because it was dry then and not many pigs were around. Next day the same farmer comes around saying my dogs had killed one of his cows. He said he knew because the ears had been chewed off. I think he was right.

I still want to get a Bandog from Powerhause kennels. I really like the idea of having a canine protector that won't run away. There's some rough country around the Sara river that I'd like to check out for gold, sapphires and topaz. Graham from Powerhause said the next litter won't be due until May-June of next year.So after that I probably should wait until he's 10 months I guess before I take him and the Akita down there.

My Akita is so pleased with himself. He caught a wallaby two days ago. Now he wants to take it with him on walks. Bit slow when he's carrying it though.

I have been reading this topic with interest, and I really do think a good bandog is exactly what you want. They just want to be near you, even if they are just lying down sleeping nearby.

I have my powerhause bandog in obedience class, and trying to do 'long lead' training with him is a farce. Trying to get more than 3 feet away from him is ridiculously hard. Wouldn't matter if he was on a hundred foot or a 2 foot lead, he is always gonna be standing just behind me. I love that about the mastiffs, just so loyal.

Hi soldiermonkey. He sounds like my kind of dog. Glad to hear he is so faithful and will stick by your side.

How would you rate the energy level of Romeo? Say if he was playing with another dog would he tire easily or not? I know he's still a young dog but anything you could say about this would really help.

I asked Graham about how would one of his Bandogges go in hilly country when mature, and he said no problem for the neosil line. I figure that's good because I'm a bit obsessive about walking in the bush. Can't get enough of it.

He is pretty happy just lying around to be honest, although he can play all day at a frantic rate with my other dog (kelpie) when the mood strikes him. My feeling is that even though he will be a big dog, his fitness level will be pretty high. I would think any dog from Graham's lines would be able to handle any hill you put in front of them.

Thanks. Running around with a Kelpie would keep any dog fit.

Tell you what I like about choosing a Bandog. They've got short coats. I had trouble with my Akita (Harky) after I got him with tick paralysis. He pulled through OK and now has good immunity. I found two paralysis ticks on him yesterday. One was quite large. I think its going to be a bad year down here for ticks.

If I'd gone along with getting a LGD I probably would have had the same problem as I do with Harky. His coat's so long and thick that I have to feel for them.With a Bandog it would be no trouble.

Well I finally decided to get an Amstaff puppy from working bloodlines. His kennel name is Redboys Mayday. I call him Rufus. He was born 12 / 9 / 2012, so he is just over 9wks old. He is fawn in colour wih a tiny bit of white on his chest. After I picked him up from Sydney airport I drove back to Katoomba where I was staying. I let the Akita say hello to him. Big mistake, for in spite of being a long coat with a very mild temperament he grabbed the puppy in his mouth and would not let go. I did get him off a very frightened puppy and proceeded to socialise them through the wire door.

Eventually by day four of bringing the pup home the Akita - Harky wagged his tail when Rufus was in front of him. He is now so gentle with Rufus. He will still growl if the pup gets carried away playing. I talked to an Akita breeder who has similar bloodlines to my first Akita and he said Harky's reaction towards the pup at first, was normal for an Akita.

I've enrolled Rufus into puppy preschool. Hope he is not too much for the other puppies to cope with. He is high spirited and can leap a long way for a puppy. He can also run fast in small circles without losing his footing. I hate taking photos but figure I had better get a camera and take a few.

I was hoping you would give us an update... And yeah, photos are a must!