Hocks and rear angulation on our dogs?
[quote1280355066=YL]
[quote1280353606=davidfitness83]
Why not create dogs with this angulation? My Pit dog is ambully x apbt crossed so he lacks that pefect standard symetry. Honestly my dog reminds me of a mastiff at times because of the head, loose skin and long body. Now please do not get me wrong I am not saying mastiff type dogs are built wrong I just want to know what are the advantages of both sides of the spectrum.
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Different structures aid in different functions, different gait, stamina, working in different terrain... Why in the world you think that the one you like is perfect for everybody? What may be right for a terrier is not right for a molosser. Each breed has it's own standard. Do you propose making every breed the same angulation because it looks good on a pit?
[/quote1280355066]
of course the structure of a dog also depends on the function, but i like your question. i have also noticed that a lot of molosser breeds, have a "strange" angulation, as they sometimes have no angulation at all. i have seen large so called performance tosas that were a structural mess. if you are interested in further reading here are some links for you mate.
http://sunnyak.foren-city.de/topic,336,15,-the-ideal-build.html
http://sunnyak.foren-city.de/topic,336,30,-the-ideal-build.html
regards
andreas
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Replies (12)
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I didn' t know where to put this hopefully this was the right section. So I noticed that a lot of mastiff type dogs have high rears, and I also noticed a lot of them have very little rear angulation. The standard for the APBT calls for rear angulation and good hock length and symmetry. Being that the APBT is one of the most athletic and poweful breeds in the world pound for pound. I wanted to know how these high backs and odd angled hocks affect the dog's movement and performance. Why not create dogs with this angulation? My Pit dog is ambully x apbt crossed so he lacks that pefect standard symetry. Honestly my dog reminds me of a mastiff at times because of the head, loose skin and long body. Now please do not get me wrong I am not saying mastiff type dogs are built wrong I just want to know what are the advantages of both sides of the spectrum. This is my dog by the way
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Come on someone has to have an opinion on this matter!!!
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[quote1280353606=davidfitness83] Why not create dogs with this angulation? My Pit dog is ambully x apbt crossed so he lacks that pefect standard symetry. Honestly my dog reminds me of a mastiff at times because of the head, loose skin and long body. Now please do not get me wrong I am not saying mastiff type dogs are built wrong I just want to know what are the advantages of both sides of the spectrum. [/quote1280353606] Different structures aid in different functions, different gait, stamina, working in different terrain... Why in the world you think that the one you like is perfect for everybody? What may be right for a terrier is not right for a molosser. Each breed has it's own standard. Do you propose making every breed the same angulation because it looks good on a pit?
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[quote1280355066=YL] [quote1280353606=davidfitness83] Why not create dogs with this angulation? My Pit dog is ambully x apbt crossed so he lacks that pefect standard symetry. Honestly my dog reminds me of a mastiff at times because of the head, loose skin and long body. Now please do not get me wrong I am not saying mastiff type dogs are built wrong I just want to know what are the advantages of both sides of the spectrum. [/quote1280353606] Different structures aid in different functions, different gait, stamina, working in different terrain... Why in the world you think that the one you like is perfect for everybody? What may be right for a terrier is not right for a molosser. Each breed has it's own standard. Do you propose making every breed the same angulation because it looks good on a pit? [/quote1280355066] of course the structure of a dog also depends on the function, but i like your question. i have also noticed that a lot of molosser breeds, have a "strange" angulation, as they sometimes have no angulation at all. i have seen large so called performance tosas that were a structural mess. if you are interested in further reading here are some links for you mate. http://sunnyak.foren-city.de/topic,336,15,-the-ideal-build.html http://sunnyak.foren-city.de/topic,336,30,-the-ideal-build.html regards andreas
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Straight stifles do run in Tosas, I've got a stud book from Japan, and lots of them in there. Also lots of east-west and cow hocks. From what I can understand, the higher angulation dogs are more meant for running. Dogs like Tosas, do more lateral movements in the ring, and are standing up a fair bit on their hind legs. I prefer moderate angulation. I've seen Tosas too who are way overangulated and movement gets clumsy and "weak/wobbly" looking. Lack of angulation can take away from good movement and can predispose dogs to weakness in tendons, patellar, etc. My own male has little angulation, but it does not take away from movement or strength in his case, and pretty well all his offspring has better angulation than he does anyway. first pic, over angulated. second pic, under. third pic, moderate. [br][link={e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_img_2363.jpg][img:width=500&height=283]{e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_img_2363_.jpg">[/link][br][br][link={e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_taro5yr2.jpg][img:width=500&height=409]{e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_taro5yr2_.jpg">[/link][br][br][link={e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_boss7mth1.jpg][img:width=500&height=497]{e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_boss7mth1_.jpg">[/link][br]
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[quote1280407578=YL] [quote1280353606=davidfitness83] Why not create dogs with this angulation? My Pit dog is ambully x apbt crossed so he lacks that pefect standard symetry. Honestly my dog reminds me of a mastiff at times because of the head, loose skin and long body. Now please do not get me wrong I am not saying mastiff type dogs are built wrong I just want to know what are the advantages of both sides of the spectrum. [/quote1280353606] Different structures aid in different functions, different gait, stamina, working in different terrain... Why in the world you think that the one you like is perfect for everybody? What may be right for a terrier is not right for a molosser. Each breed has it's own standard. Do you propose making every breed the same angulation because it looks good on a pit? [/quote1280407578] I did not mean to come out disrespectful to the breed type, In fact I am inlove with mastiff type dogs and I hope to own one in the near future when I have the right place for one. I don't thnk the American Pitbull Terrier was bred to have a structure for looks, I am not talking about pits or petbulls. I was talking about the real American Pitbull Terrier bred for combat which is the breed I am using for comparison regarding structure.
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[quote1280407746=PUGNACES-BRITANNIAE-AK] [quote1280355066=YL] [quote1280353606=davidfitness83] Why not create dogs with this angulation? My Pit dog is ambully x apbt crossed so he lacks that pefect standard symetry. Honestly my dog reminds me of a mastiff at times because of the head, loose skin and long body. Now please do not get me wrong I am not saying mastiff type dogs are built wrong I just want to know what are the advantages of both sides of the spectrum. [/quote1280353606] Different structures aid in different functions, different gait, stamina, working in different terrain... Why in the world you think that the one you like is perfect for everybody? What may be right for a terrier is not right for a molosser. Each breed has it's own standard. Do you propose making every breed the same angulation because it looks good on a pit? [/quote1280355066] of course the structure of a dog also depends on the function, but i like your question. i have also noticed that a lot of molosser breeds, have a "strange" angulation, as they sometimes have no angulation at all. i have seen large so called performance tosas that were a structural mess. if you are interested in further reading here are some links for you mate. http://sunnyak.foren-city.de/topic,336,15,-the-ideal-build.html http://sunnyak.foren-city.de/topic,336,30,-the-ideal-build.html regards andreas [/quote1280407746] Andreas, thank you very much for the links I got some reading to do =) this is why I love this site =)
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[quote1280407848=tosamama] Straight stifles do run in Tosas, I've got a stud book from Japan, and lots of them in there. Also lots of east-west and cow hocks. From what I can understand, the higher angulation dogs are more meant for running. Dogs like Tosas, do more lateral movements in the ring, and are standing up a fair bit on their hind legs. I prefer moderate angulation. I've seen Tosas too who are way overangulated and movement gets clumsy and "weak/wobbly" looking. Lack of angulation can take away from good movement and can predispose dogs to weakness in tendons, patellar, etc. My own male has little angulation, but it does not take away from movement or strength in his case, and pretty well all his offspring has better angulation than he does anyway. first pic, over angulated. second pic, under. third pic, moderate. [br][link={e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_img_2363.jpg][img:width=500&height=283]{e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_img_2363_.jpg">[/link][br][br][link={e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_taro5yr2.jpg][img:width=500&height=409]{e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_taro5yr2_.jpg">[/link][br][br][link={e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_boss7mth1.jpg][img:width=500&height=497]{e_FILE}public/1280359481_12297_FT75687_boss7mth1_.jpg">[/link][br] [/quote1280407848] Thank you for sharing that information, those were some excellent examples. It is a very interesting topic, I think a dog with slightly more angulation has an advatange in a sport such as weight pulling.
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Real APBTs are not selected for structure, ever. There is one quality in which they were selected for, regardless of roach backs, angulation or chest. If it was game, it lived and reproduced. Combat dogs were never selected based on their structure, it was their heart, as heart can "overcome" all "faults." This is why there is such a diversity in type even today. If you want a dog bred to a standard, look at the Am Staff.
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I was thinking of the ABDA standard...
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Though the ideal is there, there is a lot of variance in the types that are considered champions, holding true to the breed, many types falling under one standard. Working dogs are rarely selected for conformation. I have seen working dogs laughed out of a show ring and vice versa. There is also a size allowance for certain conformation traits.
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I should mention, something like straight stifles, don't seem to be a major fault in the show ring. Europe's world champion Tosa for 2006 and 2008 (not 100% sure on the years, but recent), has pretty well dead straight stifles. And probably the most extreme molosser, the EB, tends to have very little angulation as far as I can remember (goes for my own EB). It is really hard to tell how much better a given dog would do at it's job, if it had "perfect" angulation. I also think it's more to do with physical conditioning and "heart". My EB runs quite quickly for a stumpy little thing, jumps straight up in the air sometimes 4' high, and when she was a young dog, she was hell to hold back if pulling at the leash. !teeth
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