Is Inbreeding Necessary?

Then again- we know who our own brother or ucle is 5 yrs down the road!! LMAO!!

Though I agree that genetic diversity is important and necessary, I also think of breeds in general. Each type of breed and their characteristics wouldn't be here if it wasn't for in and line breeding. A lot of traits we attribute to certain breeds are recessive, and wouldn't be there if it weren't for those techniques. I don't think ameteurs should attempt inbreeding, or linebreeding, especially if you don't have a full grasp of what you're doing, and are not willing to keep and cull hard the inbred progeny for health. With the populations we have access to in dog breeds today, outcrossing is a far safer way to go. Select for type and temperment and match accordingly. Never try to "correct" but compliment traits in two dogs.

If you take into account that wolves are incredibly inbred, due to the fact that when a pair wants to set up a pack of their own, they leave the original pack - led by their PARENTS. This means that every wolfpack is severely inbred, but they do not seem to suffer the problems that the domestic dog does. Why?? The reason is that nature does not allow the weaker, diseased wolf to breed the way man does with the dog. We really need to stop humanizing our animals and applying our own mores and standards to them. We need to realise that it is OUR influence that causes the genetic problems in them, because they would choose an entirely different mate in the wild, if they were permitted to breed at all. They do not choose on the basis of conformation, but whether the mate is a good hunter and can stand it's ground in the pack heirarchy. Unfortunately, if these standards were used in the breeding of dogs, none of the breeds would be able to maintain their different appearances and they would all denigrate into a standard pariah-type dog, size and general appearance depending on environmental factors. AND THEY WOULD STILL BE INBRED!!

Geistexe wrote: [blockquote]So if we are going to put more standards on our breeding of dogs. Then we as humans really should do it for ourselves as well.[/blockquote] Oh I DO like the way you think! Imagine how many irritating, uneducatable people would not have been born....

[quote=Gillian]If you take into account that wolves are incredibly inbred[/quote] At least one DNA study shows they' re not: http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/wfincst/index.htm

If you do your homework on the group used in this study, I am sure that you will find human interference. Even the Cheetah here in Africa is quite inbred, probably due to declining numbers - but Nature abhors a vacuum so does the best she can. Wolves and inbreeding: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061221074654.htm http://lsweb.la.asu.edu/phedrick/wolfbodysize.pdf http://www.montana.edu/kalinowski/KalinowskiReprints/1999_Wolf_inbreeding_ConservationBiology.pdf http://skandulv.nina.no/skandulv%20new/Publikasjoner/English%20pdf%20files/Bensch%20et%20al%20PLoS%20ONE%202006.pdf An explanation of inbreeding and how it works: http://www.netherworld.com/~cowboy/WatmoughChapter10.htm I found these opinions particularly interesting, coming from a farming background myself (cattle). Lastly, a link to a Beagle site which also explains inbreeding and the effects thereof: http://www.beaglesunlimited.net/2001jul-aug/inbreeding.htm We are too prone to comparing animals and their breeding practises to our own. If we were entirely honest, there would be many humans who, if living a wild existance and depending on their strength, speed and intelligence for survival, would not be considered as fit mates. As a result, our 'civilized' ways have led to the breeding of individuals who would not be able to survive life on Earth without the trappings of civilization. IMO it has also led to overpopulation as the truly stupid have no idea when to stop producing carbon copies of themselves.

[quote=Gillian]We are too prone to comparing animals and their breeding practises to our own. If we were entirely honest, there would be many humans who, if living a wild existance and depending on their strength, speed and intelligence for survival, would not be considered as fit mates. As a result, our 'civilized' ways have led to the breeding of individuals who would not be able to survive life on Earth without the trappings of civilization. IMO it has also led to overpopulation as the truly stupid have no idea when to stop producing carbon copies of themselves.[/quote] Amen. 8)

Inbreeding has it's place, but I am a firm believer that you need excellent stock to inbreed with, otherwise you will just make a mess, or worse yet, set in health problems or bad traits in the line. A heavily inbred dog will also tell you what your strengths and weakness are in your line. Outcross breedings have their problems too, I have found that in the canine breeding world that there isn't much truth about the stock you are working with, and unless you have been breeding for a long time and have many generations behind you, you really have no idea what you have just bred. My ideal situation would be to have a very large kennel and know everything about each dog and several generations prior, then do a tight line breeding, or an inbreeding on occasion if the dogs prove to be worthy of such. Then have a separate line to outcross within my own kennel. The key is to know all about every dog you are working with, because you can never trust the other breeder to be honest, at least that is my opinion.

[quote=Sam427]Inbreeding has it's place, but I am a firm believer that you need excellent stock to inbreed with, otherwise you will just make a mess, or worse yet, set in health problems or bad traits in the line. A heavily inbred dog will also tell you what your strengths and weakness are in your line. Outcross breedings have their problems too, I have found that in the canine breeding world that there isn't much truth about the stock you are working with, and unless you have been breeding for a long time and have many generations behind you, you really have no idea what you have just bred. My ideal situation would be to have a very large kennel and know everything about each dog and several generations prior, then do a tight line breeding, or an inbreeding on occasion if the dogs prove to be worthy of such. Then have a separate line to outcross within my own kennel. The key is to know all about every dog you are working with, because you can never trust the other breeder to be honest, at least that is my opinion.[/quote] This is quite true. you put this well and hit a home run. when i first started breeding guinee pigs at the age of seven i learned that i must breed at least three generations to themselves to get what i was breeding for and to be sure of what i had. then i could start my breeding. first you must know what you have and you can not rely on false paper work and pedigrees that may not be true. i take a look at the total dog first. i listen and study a pedigree but i never trust them. i have been breeding for over 40 years and have started my own breed. in starting your own lines, or your own breed you must first have a goal set in your mind as to where you wish to go. what qualities you want to improve on. Then you must pay the price and go the distance to find just the right dog. This may take time and trial and error. you must be willing to cut off lines that didnt produce what you wanted. it is very costly and time consuming. inbreeding is necessary to set up your genes strong. it is also necessary to cull and/or find homes for the unwanted "pet" dogs. next you will find deformities and illness and weakness. you must be able to "see" these and breed only to those who come through such breedings in great health. this is rather difficult some times to see. once you have a line "set" then you outcross to keep your lines healthy and strong. that is just the way it works. out crossing and linebreeding and tight inbreeding all has it purpose in a well planned and thoughtout breeding program. it is a long haul and for those of us that love breeding and dogs and such it is a life long love and dedication no matter the distance to be traveled. i hope i havnt offended anyone. Lois Schwarz breedmaster and founder of the Alsatian Shepalute Rare Companion dog.

I always see references to culling, out of curiosity does anyone truly cull anymore? What today constitutes culling, I am very curious, most people I have heard speak of culling practice it in the form of giving away of undesirable dogs or for the shadier, selling them off as good stock when they aren't worth a damn. Any thoughts?

Depends on how you use the term "cull". I take the best from every litter and sell the rest as pets, or if they do have a known problem I would give that one away. That to me is a form of culling. Would I kill a puppy that was not acceptable, NO! If a puppy clearly had a deformation that would cause it to not lead a healthy life and I knew it was going to die anyway, I would have that one put to sleep. It's buyer beware when buying dogs, especially when you are buying what is suppose to be show quality or breeding quality.....not many people know what that means anymore! I breed Chows and our breed is in serious trouble, the dogs are dieing at very young ages, they have all sorts of structural problems, joint problems are horendous! This is from nothing more than people not knowing what is breeding quality and what is pet quality. This also comes from people line breeding and inbreeding on faulty stock. Case in point, a top show dog just died at the age of 7, that dog has been bred like crazy over the last few years, now he will pass that on to a whole bunch of offspring. That dog really brought nothing to the table in the form of health, he mearly contributed a nice head and a bunch of fur. We have PRA in our breed now, something that has never been seen before, and people are line breeding and inbreeding like crazy on the line that it was found in, now that disease will spread. I saw nothing special in this line other than it could win shows, there were certainly not enough health checks to back it up. There are just too many reckless breeders in the world, there is no way the good ones can offset what the bad ones are doing to the breed. :cry:

Personally and I do me just my personal opinion for what works for me we look for no inbreeding and limited to no line breeding in our lines. We have purchased line bred 4-5 before and the dog was not mentally sound. When you start breeding really close you are asking for problems! Maybe if you know the lines in and out you could get away with it once or twice. I do not know my lines well enough to be comfortable with anything but outcrossing. I cannot chance puppies coming out with unstable minds or unhealthy.

Outcrossing does not in any shape, form, or fashion guarantee a healthy litter. I can back that up with several breedings that were complete outcrosses for five generations and they had health problems. It all has to do with each dog in the pedigree and how sound it was, both mentally and physically. You also have no controll over type in outcross breedings, they may however still meet the standard. Outcrossing will add fresh genes to your breeding program and keep you from having genes depletion problems.

I've formed the opinion from my research that inbreeding should only be done occasionally, and you should be prepared to accept the consequences (surprises) that arise. Line breeding I'm a little more comfortable with, but not too closely in our breed right now. And to many people outcross with no clue why they're doing it. In regards to the human inbreeding Deb..I actually did see an article in a magazine..I think it was popular science or maybe Time. It was about human inbreeding/linebreeding, specifically the rule about 1st cousins. Technically, they said, they're nothing scientifically wrong with it.

I don't think they said run out and have babies with your cousin, they just said there is nothing wrong with it genetically. :lol: Some people shouldn't line breed either! :lol:

That wouldn't be the Dogo that placed at the IABCA show in Kentucky this past spring? I was there with the red Chow bitch if it is.

I know of a breeder who has inbred his bulldogs dogs 6 generations with no out crosses and his dogs are all said to be normal and healthy I have questioned him to death on how he has performed this feat and his goal was to produce a "blank dog" his stock has insane working drive and he reproduces clones pretty much every time he has a litter only the coat color on his dogs get lighter and the litter size remain small 4-6, and when he does outcross he goes back to chilled semen of his foundation dog for a natural out cross. He has a degree in animal science and has never had issues with cleff palates or other common symptoms, he does cull very hard. I like the fact that he breeds for performance and started his program by throwing away pedigrees and breeding based off instinct not what was said to be behind the animals. His breeding program goes alot deeper than what I have brought to light but to go 6 gen and have the same ped is a feat that isnt common! Ish Iron Guard K9

[quote=geisthexe]After Sean (hubby) & I read the article: My question of the day is: Would you have intercourse with some kind of sibling from father, mother, sister, brother or cousin? [/quote] Is she hot??? :lol:

Inbreed tight for desired traits like temperment, ability, and health and the cull factor will be greatly reduced. After about 4 or 5 gens, inbred, the litters as well as the pups will return to normal size. www.bttbab.com

you can line breed animals indefinetly to suit their environment(work), just as long as you are honest about the quality of the offspring , and you are matching best to best of the related offspring. you people that are breeding dogs for shows can not maintain healthy dogs , because you dont make the dog earn its keep and prove its genes in the real world. just as all animals are in the wild they are basicaly like clones of each other and perfectly adapted. this is the only way to actually get a breed.

[quote=geisthexe]My question of the day is: Would you have intercourse with some kind of sibling from father, mother, sister, brother or cousin? In humans that would be wrong so why do it to dogs? !!![/quote] Why would you attribute human social tabboo to animals?

So, Brad... Hypothetically speaking, seeing as you see it as ""human taboo"" that inbreeding is bad, if you had a daughter and she was a good match for you, would you procreate with her? Or sister, mother or niece? Would you be ok with your wife procreating with your son? Again, this is hypothetical, but I am interested in your answer.

[quote=crnosrce1]So, Brad... Hypothetically speaking, seeing as you see it as ""human taboo"" that inbreeding is bad, if you had a daughter and she was a good match for you, would you procreate with her? Or sister, mother or niece? Would you be ok with your wife procreating with your son? Again, this is hypothetical, but I am interested in your answer.[/quote] If you believe the Adam & Eve creation myth then that is exactly what happened, wasen't it? Nice try to try to get this thread off topic with a veiled adhominem attack.

human mating and canine mating...what a nonsense trying to relate them.. (without trying to offend anyone) would you put a leash on your mother? this type of talk is senseless.. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931 performance is the key ps : in and line breeding all the way (not forgeting out every 3 generations)

No , it's not a good idea for human first cousins to interbreed: http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003130.html http://www.isteve.com/cousin_marriage_conundrum.htm (...) Of course, there are also disadvantages to inbreeding. The best known is medical. Being inbred increases the chance of inheriting genetic syndromes caused by malign recessive genes. Bittles found that, after controlling for socio-economic factors, the babies of first cousins had about a 30% higher chance of dying before their first birthdays.(...) http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/02/darwinian-sweet-spot-3rd-cousin.html Dogs and humans are both mammals, the same laws of genetics apply: http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2006/05/inbred-thinking.html http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/12/flawed-paws.html http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/08/inbreeding-of-kennel-club-dogs-data.html http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/08/closed-registries-breed-diseased.html http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/12/following-is-from-great-scots-magazine.html http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2008/12/pedigree-dogs-exposed-in-just-one-click.html

Another informative link from another source: http://www.parispoodles.com/Inbreeding.html

Found a brief, simple explanation of the problems associated with inbreeding: http://www.geneticstimes.com/Research/Extent_of_inbreeding_in_pedigree_dogs_revealed_in_new_study.asp

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/dec/05/dogs-pets-crufts-bbc-animal (...) David Balding, professor of statistical genetics at Imperial College London and co-author of a recent report on inbreeding in purebred dogs, agrees. The exaggerations caused by slavish devotion to the standards is one problem, but the loss of genetic diversity is potentially even more devastating and may threaten the viability of some breeds. "Because you're mating animals with similar genes," says Balding, "you're getting a big loss of genetic diversity and that has bad consequences in terms of your ability to resist disease. Breeding has gone too far. It was something that started getting organised and became systematic in the 19th century, and it didn't do much harm for a long time. But now we have reached the point where the harm is starting to show more and more. We are now doing genetic damage to the dog."(...)

I've seen a number of issues with Tosa inbreeding, where parents are good and healthy, but pups have problems. maybe it can be ok for some breeds, but absolutely not for those with small gene pool. i personally would never practice inbreeding with any breed.