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SERRANO BULLDOG

[quote1285102362=brazillianbandogge]Hips or elbows dysplasia is a controversy methods to select dogs for working because if the dog didnt have the clinic presense of the hip problem they dont have the problem...[/quote1285102362] How can you say that?! In this way, if a dog doesn't show pain, he couldn't have cancer, os something like that. I NEVER heard someone to say that hip dysplasia is a "controversy method to select working dogs". It's about dog health, how could it be "controversy"? I only saw owners of puppy mills with this kind of argument. I trully hope this isn't your case. [quote1285102869=Nebulosa]The Serrano born in record time, with a weak standard and a weak character test.[/quote1285102869] Yeah, that's pretty true. Even the Campeiro breeders didn't know the project to creat the "Serrano Bulldog". Two or three person, one of them owner of a dog with enormous problems of lack of structure and looking like a boxer mix, simply showed up one day with the CBKC approval for the Serrano. Exactly that way. A great politic game. Now, all the dogs rejected by the Campeiro breed, because their problems of structure, can have a new breed where their owners can have all the admiration that they couldn't have like Campeiro breeders and their poor quality dogs. The club of the repressed.
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    • ITS A NEWCOMER BREED REGISTRY IN CBKC-BRAZIL THE OFFICIAL CLUB ....ITS A FCI SAME TYPE OF CLUB. SERRANOS IS A BREED SPLIT FROM CAMPEIRO. ACTUALLY THE BREED ARE THE SAME AND SOME OF THE BREEDERS CHANGE THE STANDARD TO FIT IN WORKING SO SERRANOS WILL BE THE CAMPEIRO WORKING DOGS. MOST OF SERRANOS LINES DERIVED FROM CAMPEIRO DIDNT HAVE ENGLISH BULLDOG ON THEM OF HAVE LESS (USED IN THE RESCUE OF THE BREED MANY YEARS AGO) AND HAVE BEEN BREED FOR WORKING SPECIALLY WITH CATTLE DRIVES -BULLBATING PLAY.
      • Do you have a link to the breed information? Please do not type in CAPITAL letter.
        • [quote1253213781=gsicard] Do you have a link to the breed information? Please do not type in CAPITAL letter. [/quote1253213781] Gary, Yes, i have but was wroten in Portuguese. [link=hyperlink url]http://www.cbkc.org/padroes/pdf/grupo11/buldogserrano.pdf[/link]
          • Sorry, but we all know it's a lie. Serranos were Campeiros wich didn't fit the standard, mainly because they were clear mixed with other breeds like English Bulldogs, too small, too weak, with strong problems like french hands, cow heel, problems wich would complicate the life of the dog in its work Serrano breeders also scream everywhere that Serranos are healthier, but none of them were able to even publish a oficial results of hips or elbows. We all know that Serranos were only accepted by CBKC purely because of "politic", well, it only helps to discredit more our club.
            • [quote1285067707=Nebulosa] Sorry, but we all know it's a lie. Serranos were Campeiros wich didn't fit the standard, mainly because they were clear mixed with other breeds like English Bulldogs, too small, too weak, with strong problems like french hands, cow heel, problems wich would complicate the life of the dog in its work[/quote1285067707] In my concern the campeiro bulldogs were formed by English Bulldog x native dogs with some unknowing % of the blood from old bulldogs, those information was published by the onwer of the Kennel Cão dominio whom have wroten the standard of the breed and had the first bloodline of the breed. [link=hyperlink url] http://www.bulldoginformation.com/brazilian-bulldog.html [/link] Hips or elbows dysplasia is a controversy methods to select dogs for working because if the dog didnt have the clinic presense of the hip problem they dont have the problem... Some Serranos breeders said that the campeiros registry , alow any dogs that looks like close to campeiro Standard to be registry .....the R.I. Inicial Registry..... In my opinion the CBKC is not the best place to registry a working dog because the CBKC is like FCI and the conformation way or a Show its the prime focus. Actually the Serranos inovate when wrote a working trial in the standard and these could be helpfull to select "Working Campeiros"=serranos... And in other hands the Owner of Caodominio Mr Ralf said in brazilian forum that have been studied some changes in Campeiros Standard to avoid to grow some specific lines that looks like the E.Bulldog. The both breeds have a long road to improved there qualities and the future of the breeds are in the hands of the responsable breeders, God bless them..
              • [quote=Brazillianbandogge]In my concern the campeiro bulldogs were formed by English Bulldog x native dogs with some unknowing % of the blood from old bulldogs, those information was published by the onwer of the Kennel Cão dominio whom have wroten the standard of the breed and had the first bloodline of the breed.[/quote] Ralf used few English bulldogs a long time ago, in the start of the rescue of the breed, he did it in dogs wich lost the tipical bulldog look, also because in that time there are a small ammount of campeiros and mixes, the breed was facing its extinction. Use a small ammount of English Bulldog in a small amount of dogs 20 years ago, when there was no bloodline nor animals available, is very different than take an already rescued breed and mix again with English Bulldog for have smaller dogs, and name it Serrano. [quote=BrazillianBandogge]Hips or elbows dysplasia is a controversy methods to select dogs for working because if the dog didnt have the clinic presense of the hip problem they dont have the problem...[/quote] Nice excuse for does not control health problems, you should get more informations about such illness before write something like that. Young dogs maybe will not show pain, old animals after start the muscular loss will show anyway, I does not breed working dogs that are able to work properly only while young. With elbows displasy the problem is even worst [quote=BrazilianBandogge]Some Serranos breeders said that the campeiros registry , alow any dogs that looks like close to campeiro Standard to be registry .....the R.I. Inicial Registry..... [/quote] Yes, not only with Campeiros but with all breeds, even breeds wich have counted and controled bloodlines since the start of its breeding, everyone who pay for an RI can get one if have a dog a little bit similar to the one of the breed in question, it's not different with Serrano. Once in a dogshow, a very famous judge came to me for greet my new Campeiro.... the main problem is that it wasn't a Campeiro but a very typical English Bulldog, with all faults possible for a Campeiro, well, the same judge was the one who gave the RI to several mixes in one meeting, the same mixes wich now have its offsprings called Serrano. [quote=BrazillianBandogge]Actually the Serranos inovate when wrote a working trial in the standard and these could be helpfull to select "Working Campeiros"=serranos.[/quote] Again internal political influence. The Serrano born in record time, with a weak standard and a weak character test. [quote=BrazillianBandogge] And in other hands the Owner of Caodominio Mr Ralf said in brazilian forum that have been studied some changes in Campeiros Standard to avoid to grow some specific lines that looks like the E.Bulldog.[/quote] Campeiros breeders (Ralf include) tried for at least 2 years update the standard for the new one, wich does not allow dogs with exagerated conformation characteristics, it was done not because of the breeders, but for help the judges to understand better the breed and dont make wrong choices again. A little bit of history: People who now breed Serranos started first trying to polute Campeiros with mixes like that: People from Campeiro did not had accepted such dogs, and with the help of the owner of the weak boned campeiro wich appear in the Serrano standard photo, they did a new breed in record time, so, born Serranos, a supposed breed with no english bulldog, a supposed working dog. Its so senseless that even the creator of this breed said that in some litters of Serrano's can born Campeiro's, and in some Campeiro's litters can born Serrano's.
                • [quote1285102362=brazillianbandogge]Hips or elbows dysplasia is a controversy methods to select dogs for working because if the dog didnt have the clinic presense of the hip problem they dont have the problem...[/quote1285102362] How can you say that?! In this way, if a dog doesn't show pain, he couldn't have cancer, os something like that. I NEVER heard someone to say that hip dysplasia is a "controversy method to select working dogs". It's about dog health, how could it be "controversy"? I only saw owners of puppy mills with this kind of argument. I trully hope this isn't your case. [quote1285102869=Nebulosa]The Serrano born in record time, with a weak standard and a weak character test.[/quote1285102869] Yeah, that's pretty true. Even the Campeiro breeders didn't know the project to creat the "Serrano Bulldog". Two or three person, one of them owner of a dog with enormous problems of lack of structure and looking like a boxer mix, simply showed up one day with the CBKC approval for the Serrano. Exactly that way. A great politic game. Now, all the dogs rejected by the Campeiro breed, because their problems of structure, can have a new breed where their owners can have all the admiration that they couldn't have like Campeiro breeders and their poor quality dogs. The club of the repressed.
                  • Thais, I believe the statement about hips and elbows hold merit. If a dog manifests problems moving and functioning it should not be bred. Brazillianbandogge is simply saying that to use hips and elbows to select dogs for working abilities is not the only measure. A dog could have perfect hips and not be able to perform its normal function.. working function that is. You see it is more than an hip and elbow score that makes a working dogs. A large part of the equation is in the dogs heart and desire for work. You could have a perfectly scored dog (e.g. a Fila Brasileiro) then runs away and pees it self it is sees a stranger. So you have a perfectly scored dog that cannot work. There must be something more to the selection process. Selecting dogs for breeding based solely on the merit of hip and elbow scores does detrimental damage to the breeds character. When form used to follow function we did not have these problems because the weaklings were - removed from the yard by attrition.
                    • If a dog dont manifests problems moving and functioning it should be bred. Some working dogs moving and work perfectly and have shows some grade/score of hip dysplasia in the X ray .Those dogs could die with 10 -12 years without manifests problems moving and working. In the specific case of Campeiros x Serranos that come from E.Bulldog hip could be a big problem. I agree with Gsicard ..."So you have a perfectly scored dog that cannot work....There must be something more to the selection process." I my opinion for working porpouses, AKC- FCI -CBKC (conformation show) methods of selection, does detrimental damage to the breeds character, in general.
                      • Gary, I understood something completely different in brazillianbandogge message, and he confirmed what I was thinking in his last message. He said if a dog has a bad score in the x-ray exame of the hips, there's no problem to reproduce him if he can walk. That's craziness! Of course the dysplasia score shouldn't be the only criterium to choose a working dog to reproduce. But it's a fundamental criterium. I can see very few motives to reproduce a dog with severe hips dysplasia, even if he can work very well. We don't have until now a good understand of pain in animals and it's completely possible that a dog can feel pain e still work. This discourse of "we don't need the FCI approval" sounds more like an excuse to not following basic rules, such the hips dysplasia exam, than a real try to do something new in dog breeding.
                        • You need balance the score of Hip X ray , temperament of the dog and the symptom of the disease of the Hip during the breeding selection. I didnt said about the score because these is not a main topic here. Campeiro and Serrano breed have good breeders and goals...
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