Strange Unexpected Behavior

hugo, I'm very sad to hear that, I know how much you searched for a good dog. Even dough he is still young, it is not good behaviour. I think akin owes you a new dog. Have you activly encouraged the dog against strangers, or just let him be? How are the hipps have you checked for hd, maybe the dog is in pain.

To me it sounds more like the dog is fearful and untrusting, how much have you been taking the dog out from the house? How many people has this dog met outside and inside the house? Has he always acted like this, or did it start more recently? He is still young and things can change if you do it right.

Hugo, I am sorry for what you are experiencing, but in all honesty, I don't think it should come as a surprise. That line of dogs, Boz dogs, are a highly highly specialized line of Fighting dogs, based off of an LGD template. What good would it be to have a fighting dog, especially 1 the size of a Boz dog, who is as aggressive and confident with people as it is with its opponent, especially in the close proximity that the dogs are to the handlers. Your dog is sounding to me like many many game APBT. Extremely dog oriented, and extremely human submissive, to the point of fear of the handler and showing utter signs of submission(peeing on itself when you get near it) just to stay on your good side. The dogs come from very high tension breedings, meaning dog to dog combat being the sole reason for the creation, just as the case in the APBT. When all that is focused upon is fighting ability and drive, things like strong nerve to new situations and stimuli go out the window. Knowing this, it really dictates the very stringent raising a dog like this needs(strictly game bred fighting dogs). No raising of the voice at all, no laying a hand on in any way but utter pleasure and joy/fun, total redirection in its play, and VERY limited exposure to the other dogs in the house. A dog like this NEEDS to be isolated in a crate/kennel with tons of individual time with the owner/family/handler until it forms a very very strong bond to its owner FIRST, before being assimilated to a pack. Socializing should entail everything from meeting new dogs both on home turf and on neutral ground, going on and over as many obstacles and types of footing/gratings, new noises and tones and levels of volume, meeting as many new people as is humanly possible in as man different settings(like going to a pub, pet store, park, parking lot, zoo). I mean, I hate to say it, but this seems to be a match doomed from the beginning. I don't want to be harsh, and if that is how I am coming off, i am truly sorry. That is not my intent. I am just trying to give you my opinion, as well as trying to educate anyone who happens to read this who may be considering a dog of this type(strictly combat type from fighting lines) for anything other than what it was bred for. I hope this was of some help. Mike

I know all the effort you did to get these dogs Hugo, including the female pup that died a few hours after her arrival. I witnessed that you asked Akin about the guarding skills of these dogs when you were looking for a couple of Kangals and he convinced you to buy from him a couple of his dogs instead of Kangals. I remember he promised you the best guardian dog ever, and now having what you have, I think is just a shame. He will think maybe, because you are far away from him you cannot do nothing about it. What it is not clear to me is if the dog is a poor one so he picked for you the worst individual of the litter or if the breed/mix is poor for guarding purposes? I think that he didn't give you any kind of paper/pedigree even written with his hand, did he? Anyway, I think Boz Shepherds are not like Kangals, CAOs or other LGDs that even from fighting lines they are in general terrific guardians. Too bad. ...

Damn brother. You might want to keep a CLOSE, CLOSE,CLOSE eye on him. Espcially since you have kids.

hugo, have you got some photos of your dog?

[quote1267716748=bright] [quote1267703710=Andreita] I know all the effort you did to get these dogs Hugo, including the female pup that died a few hours after her arrival. I witnessed that you asked Akin about the guarding skills of these dogs when you were looking for a couple of Kangals and he convinced you to buy from him a couple of his dogs instead of Kangals. I remember he promised you the best guardian dog ever, and now having what you have, I think is just a shame. He will think maybe, because you are far away from him you cannot do nothing about it. What it is not clear to me is if the dog is a poor one so he picked for you the worst individual of the litter or if the breed/mix is poor for guarding purposes? I think that he didn't give you any kind of paper/pedigree even written with his hand, did he? Anyway, I think Boz Shepherds are not like Kangals, CAOs or other LGDs that even from fighting lines they are in general terrific guardians. Too bad. ... [/quote1267703710] being a professor of contract law, Hugo knows very well that he can sue that cheat! I need not have to tell him.. ;) [/quote1267716748] i have no proper knowledge about contracts, but is this really possible*-) i am asking as i guess you don´t get a guarantees about the behaviour of a dog.in most cases i guess you just have to trust in the breeding....

No, do NOT do what Carlos said in the post above. If we're to go on that many LGD-type breeds are giant wussies until they hit 15-24 months, if there is any kind of guarding instinct in him doing the boogyman/hide-n-seek/runaway stuff will likely cause more of a problem than good. He's already acting fearful and getting him to act aggressively to get people to go away will only create a dog that's fear-aggressive. He'll likely still be fearful of most everyone but acting forward instead of hiding. I think he needs to be socialized and exposed to as many pleasant situations and people as possible. Only after he has come out of his shell and being friendly in safe situations should there be any kind of agitation work done... That said, I think that you simply got a $hitty dog from a $hitty breeder. You got duped. Sorry about your luck.

I would never teach a fearful dog any bite work or agitation, that would be very irresponsible.

I don't know if I would call your Rott's behavior necessarily fearful or too similar to what Hugo described. Scary, but not really fearful, lol. It is hard to tell this over the internet, though I believe I have a similar dog that was more "confused" about who was the "bad guy" than fearful and acted very similar. Always confident, never fearful but reactive and unaware of what a real threat was. Like in your situation, some bitework clarified things for her. A cowering, hiding dog, which is clear fearful behavior, should not be taught to bite.

Not to forget the dog hugo has is still very young and these type dogs mature really late. I do think people are coming too hard on the breed and breeder, I know they are not all like this, and as I've understood the breeder agreed to give 2 new pups, also replacing the pup that died. That is very generous, not many breeders would do the same. I hope this dog's behaviour will improve, and the pups grow up to be like hugo's expectation.

Hugo be careful with this dog around your children friend which I'm sure you know given as much experience with dogs as you have under your belt. I have had this experience with a rotty, dogo arg, and airedale. Best to send this dog back. My opinion that some of the humaniacs may not like is that a dog like this isn't worth a damn and is a possible liability. IMO placing this dog in another home wouldn't be responsible unless that place is back to Boz kenn. Probably the best remedy for this dog is a .22 calibur sleeping pill I think he can swallow it if you put it between his eyes.

[quote1277094368=workman43113] Probably the best remedy for this dog is a .22 calibur sleeping pill I think he can swallow it if you put it between his eyes. [/quote1277094368] This is why I think kangals should not be exported outside of turkey. You want to kill a dog because he peed on himself? A kangal is as strong or as weak as his/her owner. These dogs are very sensitive, show him love, show him trust, bond with him. If you cannot, please send him back and stick to the muts you are used to. He is now family, treat him as such!

ecnebilere vermeyin, kopek olsada bir varlik, bunlar anlamaz yazik olur, biz can nedir biliriz, bunlarda oyle birsey yok

[quote1277144265=Hugo] [quote1277126292=annihilus] ecnebilere vermeyin, kopek olsada bir varlik, bunlar anlamaz yazik olur, biz can nedir biliriz, bunlarda oyle birsey yok [/quote1277126292] Perhaps the advice should be never export poor quality dogs. hugo [/quote1277144265] what does this mean in english? the board language is english, so people should stop speaking turkish. :S

[quote1277144404=annihilus] [quote1277094368=workman43113] Probably the best remedy for this dog is a .22 calibur sleeping pill I think he can swallow it if you put it between his eyes. [/quote1277094368] This is why I think kangals should not be exported outside of turkey. You want to kill a dog because he peed on himself? A kangal is as strong or as weak as his/her owner. These dogs are very sensitive, show him love, show him trust, bond with him. If you cannot, please send him back and stick to the muts you are used to. [/quote1277144404] not every dog is like you want it to be. there are also weak nerved dogs by nature. for example lately i have showed a scared fila. i don´t think this dog was scared because his owner treated him in a bad way.

[quote1277157181=Hugo] [quote1277126292=annihilus] ecnebilere vermeyin, kopek olsada bir varlik, bunlar anlamaz yazik olur, biz can nedir biliriz, bunlarda oyle birsey yok [/quote1277126292] Perhaps the advice should be never export poor quality dogs. hugo [/quote1277157181] I am 100 porcent agree with you. ...

Arun I am also totally agree with you. The reality is just what we know already. So sad, but true. All the effort he made for nothing now. Is not fare for our friend. ...

and now an old thread is alive again lol ;) it is almost like hollywood.

[quote1277317830=PUGNACES-BRITANNIAE-AK] not every dog is like you want it to be. there are also weak nerved dogs by nature. for example lately i have showed a scared fila. i don´t think this dog was scared because his owner treated him in a bad way. [/quote1277317830] You are right, however, like in the video you mentioned, neither decoy OR handler were doing anything correctly, so it isn't surprising that the confused dog failed. I have always believed that genetic predisposition is about 30%, and the rest is nurture or the molding, or lack there of, of the expressed phenotype.

I would like to share my experience with the Boz breed in light of this discussion. I have raised Kangals for 6 years, so have exposure to the LGD, along with several other breeds. Also having breed many other types of animals, understand that occasionally one might come out not right. Dosent mean bad breeding, dangerous bloodlines, etc,etc. Being a RN, I know that many factors can affect an animals body or mind. As well as humans. Oxygen deprivation in birth, viral attack and damage to nervous system, hormonal system disease, or many other physical assaults to the body that have nothing to do with genetics. When one out of hundreds shows a weakness, why do so many cry bad breeding. This is life. Look at the humans that are born with autism, mental retardation, cerebral palsy, etc,etc. Do we brand the parents as bad parents??? I purchased a BOZ, and have to say that I have never owned a dog as confident, defensive, affectionate, strong bonded, intelligent, and just plain a good dog. Akin has been honest, kind, trusting, and provided me a great puppy. And I plan to phase out my Kangal bloodline, and convert to BOZ. As they are superior in what I need them for. A working livestock and home guardian. Give them a chance. Brian

I have finally gotten around to reading this thread, and I wanted to jump in and say something about the Boz because I too have one, from Akin, a man who truly loves his dogs. My young female also pees when I approach her. I think this is out of submission to me, not fear. Because as a guard? She is already rallying to the fence with the older dogs, the Kangals, the mastines, etc. to sound an alarm. When my friend walked up to the porch, she rose up and challenged her. She is extremely sensitive, and loving. But already, I see the guarding instinct coming out in her. The peeing stuff....may be a breed trait? I do not equate it with fear. She is not afraid of me, no, or other people. And because of the potential of this breed, I would rather she be submissive to me now, and stay that way, than to grow up to be overly aggressive. She stands over her food and keeps off dogs 50x's her size. I would not call that a dog that is afraid. Many of Akin's dogs are out with shepherds, guarding livestock. I think many are quick to say they all just fight, that is not true. In fact it's gotten back to me that there is already in the US some Kangal breeders bad mouthing Boz (remember there are only FIVE in the US so for this to be going on already is very interesting!) as 'crossbred mongrels, mastiffs crossed on kangals and used only for fighting'. Which is a terrible shame and also a big lie. I personally don't belong to any US Kangal organization nor will I; I prefer to work with the Turks, and it is they who I turn to for advice and information; my couple of Turkish contacts here tread lightly, there is so much strife unfortunately, in the kangal world here in the US, with finger pointing and name calling, and baseless accusations (I was at one point labeled in support of dog fighting merely because I bought a Boz over here....!!!!! Such BS!). It is really too bad. I did not mean to digress but anyway I only add this to give another angle on a Boz pup from the same breeder, who I understand has been maligned by some for his fighting dogs in the past, but he does NOT fight them now, that I know for a fact...what people DO with the dogs they buy from Akin is their business, and I cannot speak for them. My girl Ekin is very brave, and already interested in the goats and that is what is important to me. Sensitive breed, extremely so. So wanting to be by my side all the time. I call that loyalty not fear. Again not wanting to argue here or offend anyone, just putting in my experience with the breed and what I have encountered - unfortunately - with some kangal breeders connected to the parent club here in US. :~(