temperament, disposition drive

Hi All, I am new here and relatively new to LGD's. We need some guidance and are hoping to learn more from others experiences. Let me tell you a bit about us.... We have a small 25 acre hobby farm with small flock of sheep, a herd of goats and a couple of horses and a flock of chickens. We acquired a sarplaninac mountain dog last year as a 6 week old pup. She has been living with the stock for a year. She is socialized to the stock, our family and our herding dogs. We are noticing some traits that are of concern as to her future as a LGD. Last fall she began to chase the chickens and killed a few. She then turned her attention to the goat kids (about 50 pounders) she would grab a leg and drag them around. By winter she would engage adult sheep too, but left the big goats alone. She would even engage the horses if they were already running, playing and bucking etc.. otherwise she left them alone until now. I penned her back in March when lambing and kidding began and now has graduated recently to be chained back out in the field as the kids and lambs are getting closer to weaning. We began releasing her at night while the youngsters were put up for the night, but we continued to chain her during the day. I was going to start letting her off the chain during the day with a drag when I could supervise her this week. But now I am not sure if I should. My question is that is this predatory behavior normal adolescent behavior or is it that it is just her temperament and/or her prey drive is too high and she will not likely out grow this stage? Maybe she is not going to make a LGD at all? What prompted me to find this forum was that she recently got in the paddock where the horses were while dragging a chain and she unrelentlessly chased the horses to the point of sheer panic while I was not home one afternoon. She had not done that before. She had to go through a lot to get into that paddock to begin with, so it seems to me she was thoughtful in making that decision to chase. I was not home at the time so I am unsure what precipitated the attack. Seeing the horses condition, it appears that she meant business as they were lathered, quivering and then lame the next day. Anyone have any thoughts and advice for us? Thanks for reading.

Alka of Montenegro is from Montenegro sarps in NY. Not to be smart, but what does a picture have anything to do with her disposition or drive? So what kind of pictures are needed? What else do you want to know specifically? I know she was born (4 in litter) outside in a kennel and kept there until she came here and the rest is posted above as far as her background.

I was able to load some random recent pictures of Alka. Thanks for the responses. She is currently chained to a tree away from everyone and everything.

http://funnyfarmnaturally.webs.com/apps/blog/ I thought perhaps it would be of some help for me to post her blog for all to read her history. Thanks for all the responses everyone.

She looks like a nice puppy. It is unrealistic to expect a year old pup to be performing LGD work unsupervised. Imagine 8-10 year old child asked to do the adult's work (it is an equivalent of your 1 year old pup). The olny way you can leave an underaged dog with livestock is if you have an older dog(s) to watch over and teach the pup. I am sure she has the right instincts, but she needs some skills to go with these instincts and right now she is young, rambunctious, playfull, and a little bored puppy. She is also the only LGD you have, that means she craves attention from humans or another dog with same intelligence level as LGD. Since you don't have an older LGD to work with her - it should be your job. Simply take her with you while you are doing the farm chores (on a long lead) and prase heavily when she acts as expected, correct with your voice and a leash jerk when she acts silly. Make sure you provide her with play time, to have some puppy fun and socialise her with family. I think Sars are very similar to COs and I can tell you that COs do not need to be bonded with the livestock. They use territorial perimeter guarding style, that means anything inside their territory is guarded. The dogs also bond well with owners and the more they bonded with you, the more they understand your actions and wishes and the more they want to work for you. I have had adult dogs that never seen livestock untill the age of 3-4-5 years old work perfectly well protecting the animals, and I have my puppy owners who are farmers raise the dogs in the house, but taking them along for daily chores untill they are used to daily routines, and reliable enough to be trusted. Usually the dogs around 2 - 2.5 years old mature and express desire to stay out with the stock, rather than coming back to the house. It is natural transition for them as they grow up and take responsibility for the things around them. I know most people think that a puppy should be left with the livestock and not socialised with people to be effective, and I think GPs work like that, but it is not so for COs and I suspect, for Sars. It has been my experience. My dogs work with sheep and chickens, but they also taking turns living in the house with me and cats. They enjoy human companionship very much.

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. We appreciate it very much. We are doing the best we know how and do want to do right by her. She is a sweet girl and I hate the idea of keeping her chained. But I don't know what to do to correct her. She minds fine while I am right there with her, with or without a leash...it is when I am not at her side that we have the problem. I feel like her options are live on a chain or in a pen nearby the animals with no contact - which seems to set her up to be frustrated IE: digging, barking, chewing etc... Or , allow her to be out there satisfying her desire to be on the move and interact with the animals....not necessarily to guard them...as this area where she is is fairly secure and free of any real predator threat, but more to allow her to grow into the job of guarding. We frequently take her for walks up on our mountain and so yesterday when we got back she was tired and I thought this would be a good opportunity to try something new. I attached a small tractor tire to the end of a 15 foot chain...she can drag that around a 5 acre pasture with the small flock of sheep (no lambs)and the goat herd as well as the chickens are out there too. I have been observing her and she seems to be happier to be able to move around the pasture again. She did try to chase the chickens a couple of times, but I called her off. She was back at it again this morning however. She is exhibiting stalking behavior at the pigs tho...so that is new. They are in an adjoining paddock. I corrected her yesterday, but she is doing it again this morning. Any suggestions? Thanks,

[quote1274013660=crnosrce1] Oh man... My nurem is getting old... Dammit anyways... Great info, Yelena. [/quote1274013660] No, he is not old. LOL Just turned 8 years old in April, still chasing girls and stealing toys from them in the house.

Kerry, chaining or penning such a young dog may promote boredom and aggression, chained dogs are always more agressive than dogs that run free. Short periods of time are OK, but you need to make sure she has an outlet for her energy and a learning time each day. You need to spend more time with Alka, if she is left alone with the stock (even while chained) she will develop unwanted habbits (like stalking the piglets) and if there is nobody to correct her, these habbits will harden. When she is chained and bored, she will try to create games and entertainment for herself, stocking or chasing the animals (within her chain length) is all she can do to amuse herself and to somehow spend her youthfull energy. Can you take her with you to the house when you are not taking care of animals? Can she watch you cook dinner, or clean, or go with you on errands? You can leave her outside in a pasture at night when all animals are secured in a barn, so she doesn't forget what her guarding duties are, but while she is awake during the day, I would give her as much intellectual stimulation as possible. I know most people think LGD is a magic word - you get a pup, you drop it in a pasture and all is secure from this point, but it only works this way if another LGD raises and teaches the puppy. When Alka is all grown up and you will be getting a puppy to support her - this is what she will do for you, but with the first dog you need to spend the time making her into what you need. Just like raising a child - normal every day interractions, teaching her right from wrong, praising and correcting untill she is ready.

Thanks for the great information YL. I couldn't agree more with you about the chaining or penning, this was my concern frankly....I do not want to promote her displaced aggression or create a resentfulness. I thought the offer to have the pasture to romp over on my terms (dragging the tire) was a good compromise. I have no where else to put her actually...unless we were to build a kennel just for her. But I hate the idea of her being isolated. I have tried to bring her in the house, but she is obviously uncomfortable here and whines to go right back out. But I do move her around the yard on her chain so she has new things to look at and experience etc...she also plays with our other dogs when I clear the field of livestock. She gets lots of people interaction in addition to her livestock buddies. We do try to stimulate her for sure :) I have had play days with my neighbors shars, and her reaction to them is fearful aggression. So we keep arranging play dates to help her through this. I figured the better contact she has, the fear will eventually diminish. (She rides in the truck well now at least.) What my hope was and still is to try to afford an adult dog for her to be with. Not an easy task as I am finding out. No one wants to part with a good adult dog...been offered unruly or problem dogs or puppies. I am hoping some of this behavior is just normal adolescent antics, but my fear is that this is her true self emerging as she matures. I guess the recent event got me thinking her chasing is more serious than I thought...like she really means it now? Thanks again all, Kerry

Update on Alka . . . We have finally created a strategy based on a variety of suggestions made from numerous experts on both working LGD's and sarplaninacs that I have been in contact with recently. It is working out well and she seems to be happy with her new living arrangements and we are satisfied with the results so far. thanks for all the suggestions.

Well what works for us may not necessarily be the program for someone else > Bear in mind that we basically had the odds stacked up against us right from the start. But we made the best decisions that we thought we could for her at the time and we still are in an experimental way. To eliminate the killing of chickens we made alterations to the main gates to all other adjoining pastures and paddocks to prevent the chickens from using any other fields but the one they are currently in. We made alterations to an adjacent small rotational field that is about 1 1/2 acres or so that has shade trees and a meadow and a newly built man gated area alongside the orchard road where our perennial plot is located along with the bees...so it is very accessible now. This area is easily in view from my kitchen window. It also has access to be in view of the pasture where the horses, goats and hens are. The area is now safely fenced and gates were secured, a dog coop brought over, a feeding and watering station developed. The ram and billy now live there with the dog. My husband is over there everyday tending to the plants and bees, so she get a good amount of attention. She gets out of the field and goes up for jaunts on the mountain with us on and off lead, so she still has socialization and a reckoning of obedience. We have a neighbor with a kennel of Shars, and I selected a calm young adult male to pair with her. They have play dates in her field and it is working out perfect. They romp and drain energy, and she is learning from his size and experience that she needs to be respectful and mindful. Win-win. If we see her chasing or stalking anything...she gets an air horn blast. If she keeps it up, she gets the knocker stick, if she keeps it up she get put on the chain. Game over. She gets released and again has the opportunity to make a mistake so she can be corrected. So far, it is working and I have only had to chain her once. Someone suggested a big nasty rooster to put in with her to get her to leave the poultry alone, and ya know what we may just try that along with the air horn. Again, an experimental step, but it could work. The next step is to build trust to allow her back into the barn yard area (without chicken access) which is adjacent to the field she is in right now and it backs up to the house so we can see and correct her. Then it is to get her adjusted and respectful of electric fence over the summer so she can spend more time with the flock. But we feel that this is home for her for now. So far, so good! Plus she does a great job of keeping the deer off the garden and the baby fruit trees...and the bears have not even tried to get the bees! So I think we are on to something good here. That is where we are with Alka in her journey to becoming a Sarplaninac LGD.[br][link={e_FILE}public/1276132885_18405_FT74429_alka_on_watch.jpg][img:width=500&height=281]{e_FILE}public/1276132885_18405_FT74429_alka_on_watch_.jpg">[/link][br]

We are located in North East PA. The neighbor owns shar mountain kennels. Her dogs were imported two years ago from Kosovo. The male is on loan, although I love him to pieces and would lust after him myself haha... I actually thought the same thing about a match up at some point down the line. Time will tell. Here is a pic of them. "Kasova" is a coming 3 year old and "Alka" just turned 1.[br][link={e_FILE}public/1276169003_18405_FT74429_alka_kosova_john.jpg][img:width=500&height=281]{e_FILE}public/1276169003_18405_FT74429_alka_kosova_john_.jpg">[/link][br]

I wanted to add some new information for anyone else that may be experiencing chasing problems etc.. with their Shars. Since we have moved Alka back out with the stock I have slowly added more and more for her to live with. Recently I added two goat kids recently weaned that weigh only about 35-40 pounds. She is weighing around 100 pounds currently so my fear was that she was going to womp on those new little buckkids. At first she did just that. I put a drag stick on her and only fed her a small amount of kibble on the days that I had her wear the stick. I also employed the use of an air horn to stop her in the chase when I caught her, then put the stick on so she made the connection. I give her chances to do the right thing every night the stick comes off, and I don't put it back on unless I catch her in the act...on those days she gets her raw diet meals. This morning I caught her lying next to the adult buck and ram high on the knoll and just behind them were the kids and a couple of mature does, I watched her casually get up to walk over and lick the face of the buck and lay back down and no one scattered when she did this. This is a bonding ritual, and I almost never see her chase the buck anymore, but when she does she is grabbing a leg, not the neck. Happy to report, so far so good only one of the new kids has any evidence of injury and it is a leg...so apparently she is playing the dragging game with her too. Much better than the I'm going to grab you by the neck, kill you and eat you game lol! So all in all we are making progress and I wanted to report back in on our journey to LGD.

[quote1278216207=funnyfarm] I wanted to add some new information for anyone else that may be experiencing chasing problems etc.. with their Shars. Since we have moved Alka back out with the stock I have slowly added more and more for her to live with. Recently I added two goat kids recently weaned that weigh only about 35-40 pounds. She is weighing around 100 pounds currently so my fear was that she was going to womp on those new little buckkids. At first she did just that. I put a drag stick on her and only fed her a small amount of kibble on the days that I had her wear the stick. I also employed the use of an air horn to stop her in the chase when I caught her, then put the stick on so she made the connection. I give her chances to do the right thing every night the stick comes off, and I don't put it back on unless I catch her in the act...on those days she gets her raw diet meals. This morning I caught her lying next to the adult buck and ram high on the knoll and just behind them were the kids and a couple of mature does, I watched her casually get up to walk over and lick the face of the buck and lay back down and no one scattered when she did this. This is a bonding ritual, and I almost never see her chase the buck anymore, but when she does she is grabbing a leg, not the neck. Happy to report, so far so good only one of the new kids has any evidence of injury and it is a leg...so apparently she is playing the dragging game with her too. Much better than the I'm going to grab you by the neck, kill you and eat you game lol! So all in all we are making progress and I wanted to report back in on our journey to LGD. [/quote1278216207] It seems that you have made substantial progress. Congrats