Tibetan Mastiff in China

Good morning, I've just had a look at the url for the Chinese TM site. Surely no-one would ever argue that all of the dogs depicted are TMs? As for Tsang Khyi, if that means Best Dog in the Tibetan language then why would that make it a different breed? I read that Tsang Khyi means Tribute Dog which isn't very different from Best Dog as it only implies that the Best Dog would be offered in Tribute. I have never yet seen any evidence for the existence of a tsang Khyi breed and to try and prove it now will lead to the errors perpetuated during the early years of the TMs return to the West.

[quote=Chortens]. Surely no-one would ever argue that all of the dogs depicted are TMs?[/quote] it depends on what you mean by "Tibetan Mastiff"! if you pretend most european show dogs to be tm's...then surely most of depicted dogs in that site are NOT tms... :lol: :lol: :lol: but if we are searching for the original Tibetan molosser...then we come much closer to truthfulness.... :wink: furthermore,you cannot pretend the large and ancient guarding dogs from immense tibetan plateau to be as homogeneous as a standardized modern breed! :roll: the big mistake of western breeding program was (and unfortunately still continues being,due to "blindness" of some breeder...) that of mixing different dogs from different regions (tibet,but also nepal,bhutan,and even india),with different attitudes and environmental-conformation, pretending to call the resulting mutts TIBETAN MASTIFF !!! something like mixing white european dogs (abruzzese,pyr,cuvac,tatra...) and "retrieve" the EUROPEAN MASTIFF 8O about tsang khyi,i share your point of view...for me this term does not designate a different breed itself,but at same time, i'm sure that on tibetan territory there are many different "breeds" (or types,or varieties, or local sort) of mastiff. :P and must admit that i firmly believe that something must be done to preserve and select in our breeding programs most typical TIBETAN specimens,and separate from blood lines those nepalese-bhotia looking dogs! :evil: call them tsang khyi, tibetan molosser,or whatever you want,but dissociate them from nepalese-himalayan sheperd bloodlines!

Hi, Am I talking with Maurizio? I wouldn't normally talk on an open forum without knowing to whom I'm speaking. However, it seems to me that there is not much difference between the views you have expressed and those I've held for over 20 years about TMs. I do take exception to remarks made about all European TMs as being of Bhotia or Sheepdog type. This is not the case and never has been. Usually those who put this about have less than glorious records in breeding to any consistent type. Speaking for myself, I am well aware of the difference between a Bhotia and a TM or, as I would prefer, Dho Khyi. Although we at Chortens have not bred many litters, those dogs which we have bred including the first UK bred World Champion and his sister, could in no way be described as Bhotia type. Having said that I do agree that too many TMs seen in Europe and other countries do not fit the description of a TM contained in any TM Standard which has so far been written and this is something which should have been addressed many years ago. But I very much disagree that the way to remedy this is to introduce a 'new' breed. If Tsang Khyi is not a breed of dog found in Tibet and IF it is where is the historical proof and descriptions of such dogs? - then that way is going to lead to just as much divergence in type as we now see in the breed worldwide. I think too much reliance is made of the so-called diversity of breed types within Tibet. Tibet might be the size of Europe but there was never the influence in Tibet of the diversity of dogs which has been seen in Europe. Anyone reading historic accounts of travels within Tibet will not be able to find evidence of a wide variety of types. The one common denominator is the multi references to the best Dho Khyi being offered in Tribute and those dogs descriptions do not give credence to a race of tall, longhaired, various coloured dogs ever existing in Tibet. My views when it comes to breeding, showing and judging TMs are well known to those who have ever listened to what I have been saying for many years but to assume that because I am nearer to Europe than Tibet, means I can or will, ever excuse the promotion of Bhotia type dogs as TMs, simply beggars belief. I do not do this and never have. We have a litter here now and there is no way that I expect any of the pups to resemble, in any way, a Bhotia or Sheepdog. Whether or not a Tibetan nomad would consider one of them worthy of being offered in Tribute i.e. a Tsang Khyi, will have to remain open to conjecture but I am fully expecting them to grow into TMs fitting the UK Standard and that is not some Standard which has allegedly been written to suit Bhotia/ Sheepdog types. I do not believe that such a Standard exists.

[quote=Chortens]Am I talking with Maurizio? I wouldn't normally talk on an open forum without knowing to whom I'm speaking.[/quote] no,i'm not maurizio (even if i'm a friend of him, since a few years trying to help him in his breeding job,and sharing almost completely the same ideas about tibetan dogs),my name is stefano. i believe there is no more reason for going on arguing on colors,size,temperament and different types amongs tibetan dogs...now we do have evidences,videos,and pictures! if historic accounts are not so accurate about different sub-types,couldn't this be because most travelling reporters where not expert cynologist? anyway even in historical drawings and old photos you can see different kinds of dogs.... that is quite obvious if you consider "continental insularity" effects on a widely-scattered population. from my point of view,many TMs do not fit FCI standard...but also FCI standard do not completely fit correct tibetan type... the only reason for introducing a "new" breed is that most of european breeders will not concede that their dogs are "himalayan sheperds",or whatever else,not Tibetan Mastiff...(what an excellent "trademark",isn't it?)...so i think the good way to proceed should be that of starting breeding separately "some" dogs...somehow "high quality" dogs...this is why "tsang khyi" seems to be a good name for them! different types amongst the breed is not a problem,in my opinion,just because different types ACTUALLY exist in their native land...new chinese standard is (correctly) talking about "lion" and"tiger" type. also different colors are attested by modern pictures from native land! coming to your dogs,i cannot but remember and congratulate for your unforgettable Ben...his blood is in my dogs too!

[blockquote]just because different types ACTUALLY exist in their native land...new chinese standard is (correctly) talking about "lion" and"tiger" type. also different colors are attested by modern pictures from native land! [/blockquote] I'm a bit skeptical of any 'proof' of type from the Chinese to be honest. After all, they've spent since the 1950's trying to wipe these dogs out in their native land and now all of a sudden, Chinese dog breeders have proof of Tibetan types and standards and all these wonderful types nad colours of dogs. There is at least one dog from my cursory glance of that website that obviously has a lot of Japanese Tosa blood in it and another that looks like it's an English Mastiff with a fuzzy coat. I suspect those 'snow' dogs have more than a touch of Great Pyrenees or something similar too. As the snow lion is so highly revered in Tibet, you'd think IF these white dogs existed in Tibet in ancient times, we'd have at least one or two cropping up in Tibetan art like the black TM's do frequently. I'm quite perceptive and I can smell somebody lying to me in order to try and make a profit from a mile away. I've seen it with the shar-pei and my gut instinct is this is the same kind of exercise. "Oh, no, Mr Westerner, we have PROOF that our bloodlines are far more healthy, authentic, ancient and superior to the ones sold to you 30 years ago... that other breeder was a right rip off artist and sold you mutts... but not us, we want to right that wrong and give you the genuine article this time... that will be about three times what you'll pay for a good puppy with relevant health tested parents in the country you come from... what colour and head shape did you want the puppy to have?" I'm sorry, but they are no more authentically Tibetan dogs than my 'himalayan mutt' of a European TM is. Maybe we could do with some new blood, but I wouldn't count on some nouveau riche Chinese entrepreneur breeding for profit to provide it as I think the breed might end up in worse state than some already think it is in the West.

Hi Senghe, It would seem we share a few common thoughts. If you would like to identify yourself or write to me privately, perhaps we can discuss further what you have said. Chortens

For some reason this link is not working for me. Iget taken to another molosser group link:O Scarlette

OOOPS spoke too soon these dogs are MAGNIFICENT!!!! I wonder why we are not seeing more TM"S like this in the show ring here in the states? Shoot me but I VERY MUCH LIKE what I see from this kennel. Scarlette

[quote1274127674=gsicard] To see some awesome Tibetan Mastiffs please look [url=http://www.aiao.cn/]here[/url]. The site is in Chinese but you can't miss the pics. [/quote1274127674] That website is amazing, wow all the dogs are amazing and what i hope the true tibetan mastiff type would be like. Shame they would cost so much for a westerner :(