Updated photos of a few American Sentinels...

Chimera's Independence (aka "Indy") at 2 and a half years... Little Hurtin at 18 months...

nice dogs Lee

Thanks guys...btw, I can't help but notice that it appears as if Indy's tail is completely docked...but that is not the case. She is an extreme tail wagger, so I assume it is just swung out to the other side. You can BARELY see a little nub there, so I thought I would mention that. I do NOT like an extremely short dock and would never use such on any of my dogs. Our dogs have a dock of approximately 1/3rd original length or longer, as I like enough tail for a handle back there above the hind quarters to control the back end of the dog.

WOW awesome girl!!! hugo

Beautiful dogs.

There is an old rumor that docking the dog's tail alters the dogs balance, but I put NO FAITH in that belief and believe that IF THE PUPS are docked BEFORE they walk they do just fine. Their nervous system develops coordination without the tail, just as is the case with the Bobcat or Lynx...either of which can out maneuver a dog. I would never dock the tail on a dog that has learned to use it. We dock about 1/3rd to 1/2 the original length. This leaves enough for communication and for a handle, but prevents the home protector from getting tails caught in doors, knocking over candles or glasses of grape juice or other drink, and keeps the tails from hitting little ones in the face...or simply making that wagging wack wack sound when in a crate or something. The docked tail just makes the dog easier to keep in the home, but I am not against leaving a dog's tail natural if someone wants a tail that way either. I believe the tail should not be less than 1/3rd the original length, but in years past I have had a few that were slightly shorter than this.

[quote1328854976=LeeRobinson] There is an old rumor that docking the dog's tail alters the dogs balance [/quote1328854976] What's the evolutionary purpose of a dog's tail then?

Could be many things. Perhaps it is a vestigial structure to SOME extent? Perhaps it plays a protective role to the anus and genital region during conflict. Perhaps it serves as communication for posturing, submitting, etc. Or, both...ever notice that the submissive dog protects its genital region with its tail...perhaps to make sure that area isn't bit? A longer tail offers more protection to the genitals, but I don't put my dogs in situations that threaten their the more belly regions of genitals that are distal to the tail. Let's consider animals like deer that fight head to head (and then only seasonal) and don't need the tail for protection. Why do they have a short tail when they can "run like a deer" and change directions through the woods. They can balance just fine...darting in and through the woods full speed. Animals like cheetah, sure it plays a role but a cheetah is going much faster and also has a much larger tail. Bob cats, lynx, and such don't have one and they move fine. IMO, it isn't a big enough deal to concern myself with...tail or not...no big deal. But if one docks it I still prefer enough to cover the genitals or to serve as a handle. The bottom line is when I work dogs, I see far more influence in coordination and balance coming from other areas. Does the tail work like a counter rudder? Sure...but I personally feel that it would be like trying to alter the course of a canoe not with a paddle, not with your hand, but perhaps a finger. My point is that its role seems negligible to me...with for more influence coming from other areas that actually have "paddles," meaning areas of influence.

Do you think the rather modest contribution to balance could be a result of merely evaluating the tail's impact in the assault of human adversaries? Could it be different for other cases, i.e. in the chase of game or perhaps in combating large animals?

[quote1328920387=Astibus] Do you think the rather modest contribution to balance could be a result of merely evaluating the tail's impact in the assault of human adversaries? Could it be different for other cases, i.e. in the chase of game or perhaps in combating large animals? [/quote1328920387] For dogs, I really don't think the tail makes a significant contribution. We have had several of our dogs catch hogs. Here is another pair of photos I got just today from a hog hunter. The dog on the right is Lava Girl, who is from our program and has a cropped tail (just a bit over 1/3rd full length) [center] [/center]

[center]Annie Oakley, at 10 months... A couple of years later...(in the back & center of this photo) [/center]

Has anyone used American Sentinels for weight pull?

As for tails one of their main purposes undeniably is communication, and yeah they incidentally are used to shield the genitals, but I don't think you can then say they definitely don't aide in balance while running. I think to a degree they probably do. Greyhounds have longer tails than most dogs, my current dog which is 25% greyhound (at least, has thrown very sighthoundy) noticeably has the longest tail I've ever had on a dog of mine. I don't think the point about deers not having a long tail really holds, they're not related to dogs at all and obviously their ancestral lineage never evolved to use the tail for balance, just incidentally it didn't happen and they made different adaptations for running. More significantly as you say the cheetah does use it's tail for balance and cheetahs are carnivorans and so closer related to dogs and perhaps a better clue. I don't think it's going to make a huge difference with the tail cut off half way or whatever, and I doubt it matters at all for close-quarter altercations and even catch dogs running up to grab onto pigs. But for coursing dogs that chase jinking and jiving prey I think it would play a role. I mean dogs do turn their tails in certain ways during chases, they don't just loosely flails behind them.

Cheetah and lynx ...or cheetah and bob cat. Both kill. What role does the tail play? Long tails may help with steering in speed...and perhaps this plays a role with the greyhound as well. I am not writing that off. For a gladiator though, I think the role of the tail is negligible. I have seen too many dogs with bobbed tails do many things that reveal starting, stopping,, and stationary spinning as is done in battle really just don't require a tail. The cost/gain IMO is negligible as well. For me, living with the dog plays more role...but it isn't worth disputing. As far as weight pulling, I haven't done it formally. Only for fun. They have the power, drive, and train ability that I am sure they would excel in such. Here is a video of some fun... [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV-9mzPHHjA]Lucile pulling a sled[/link]

Bobcat doesn't course prey like a cheetah or dog. Bobcats really lean far more heavily towards "stalk and pounce". Interestingly in pre-history another cat with a short tail was the smilodon, which was extremely specialised for pouncing on prey and tackling it, just all tackle and no chase in design, very stocky with gigantic forelimbs and a square frame that would have sacrificed a lot of running speed. So it was all about stalking and pouncing. So yeah I basically agree with you I don't think it matters for a gladiator, and may even just be something else to get injured. I don't think it effects agility in close quarters, with stationary spinning and all that. I think it more just comes into play at high speeds. Kind of like how on the tail of a plane on the fin there is a little rudder that can turn slightly from side to side. If the plane is just coasting along on the ground it probably won't do anything but at high speeds in flight it's effect on the craft is magnified and significant. Alot of dogs out there are never gonna really "take flight", and chase at the speed where the tail can really be "used".

Hence...not playing much role in BALANCE. Steering at high speed...maybe if the tail is large...but balance...I don't think so. I mention the bobcat and lynx because I think they would be experts not at running down prey, but experts at balance. I imagine a good bit of their pouncing is done arboreal...and if you had poor balance life would be short lived.

Like I said I agree with you, other than perhaps the fact I feel balance at high speeds is still balance. Just a certain kind that calls for different things. The bobcat's adaptations for balance might not help it in a high speed chase, while what balances the cheetah in a high speed chase won't necessarily help it avoid being toppled over in close quarters.

I understand your view, and I realize we are in basic agreement as well. I however see no loss in ability honestly...If I did, I wouldn't do it as I like quick reaction times...but we aren't running high speed rabbits either in open fields on a regular basis...although our dogs have caught some small game when on outings in the woods. Our dogs are for family protection and some use them to catch hog sized game...and our dogs can easily out maneuver such animals. So for me, it has been a non-issue and is all gain to do a moderate length dock...for there are no spilled drinks, knocked over candles, kids eyes aren't hit, no injured tails, etc.

Hogs aren't the fastest animals, I mean it varies a bit with the smaller ones being faster than the bigger ones, but I'm sure your dogs could run most down (tail or no tail), but do you know for sure they're used to do that? They're not just catch dogs? Either released on bayed game, or running free but typically following faster finders? They could easily be finder/lugger alrounders IMO, have seen less racey bandogs and bulldogs do it, but yeah just curious if they are. The reason really fast dogs are favoured here is because they're expected to catch multiple pigs out of a herd. Or "run on" after a pig has been killed and go catch another one, this is where a slower dog won't cut it, and by slower dog I mean pretty much anything without sighthound in it. Anyway I think tails are valuable for coursing, and realistically boars aren't "coursed" by dogs, they run when they hear dogs coming but stop to fight before an actual course can develop (course being a sight-based chase where the chaser is actually on the tail of the chasee, zigging and zagging after it). With small fast juveniles being an exception, both in the fact they're fast and evasive enough to "compete" in a course, and in the fact that flight always overrides fight for them. Basically yes, I don't think your dogs need tails for anything that they do.

The dogs surely were not used as bay dogs as that is not their purpose, but I have seen the dogs run down game myself. Over the last decade, many times I used to run with the dogs while riding an ATV...and I have seen them jump game during such outings. Not that big a deal to me. The conversation on this matter has really gotten more attention than the subject legitimately merits in my opinion.

Obviously not bay dogs but was wondering if they found as well as caught. I'll agree the tail issue doesn't deserve this much discussion, but separately I am curious what your dogs do on hog hunts, but I suspect you might not even know which isn't a criticism it's just an observation that you're not really privy to the fine details of what these hog hunters are doing with your dogs and it's not really your area of interest. I suspect they probably are doing it all actually, just judging from the pics, at the very least running free with the finders. Which is pretty cool.

I know they are used as catch, but I do not know if they are running free during the bay or prior to the catch. I never asked. The only reason I know they are used as catch dogs is because those hunters told me that is what they were looking for (a catch dog similar to an APBT but with more size and leg)...and they have told me the dogs are doing well in that avenue. BTW, I would hunt hogs myself with my dogs IF I had access to land that had hogs AND allowed dogs. I have access to land that does have hogs...and other land that does allow dogs, but I don't have access to land that has both dogs and hogs. So, I hunt hogs with a bow...and that doesn't really bother me at all since the purpose of my dogs is to be a family guardian. I have however taught a few dogs to track game (on leash) after a shot has been made. They enjoyed it and this only reveals a bit of their prey drive, but IMO that isn't anything surprising. I think any dog worth its salt that also has decent prey and decent nose would do that.

I went with a few dogs about 3-4 months ago... Here are two videos of Chimera's Little Hurtin's first outing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa1AgtMqUOk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsu5iqRlCrM

A still shot of Chimera's Little Hurtin...

Chimera's Nunovit on her first pig...

Chimera's Boss caught these two large hogs by HIMSELF in the woods. NOT in the pen in the background. There were wild hogs that were dispatched by knife.

Great dogs H Lee