What's the best LGD breed?
Interesting article.....
Spaced on the fencing of the perimeter of my place I have about five or six signs WARNING LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOGS WORKING DO NOT DISTURB. One on the front gate. Unfortunately some people still come too close to the fence, but its getting better. I need to put up a few signs that say CAUTION STAY BACK FROM FENCE.
On biting and breeds.....I would note from my own experiences with owning several breeds of LGDs there can be a vast difference between individuals within a breed so take the figures cited with a grain of salt. I own two Spanish Mastiff males. The largest one is intimidating enough merely from his size, and he seems to know it, and although he will sometimes charge the fence - or trot up to it more like - he is not aggressive towards people once introduced, or if they show no tendancy to provoke anything.
My younger male mastine, on the other hand, has recently gone from being intimidating to downright aggressive at the fence. He will not let anyone touch him anymore other than myself. He will come up to the fence and if someone reaches in, he will snap at them. This has all just started in the last few months. When friends come in now, he will observe them, remain distant, but never quite take his eye off them.
My female mastines, vary as well; some are vocal and intimidating at first then settle down and let people pet them. Others more aloof. My point being, within a breed, there will be vast differences. But again thanks for posting links, good information there.
Replies (17)
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There are different breeds of LGD are used in USA, in other places in the world everyone has their own breed but in the U.S. and Australia, which does not have its own breed of LGD and have the same problems, I'd like to know if the breeds most used are used on the basis of data found in the work area, or is only for a follow a trend of the breed! I found a table, on page 3 of the link, that summarizes the various characteristics of guardian dog breeds. If you have some data would be interesting to compare them. http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=5f3648e8-ceed-48ab-adc7-66a2031e0636
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Following that link crashed my browser so I went to the sit and found the article. It is very interesting. I'll include it in this post for those who want to read it. This is a good point of discussion.[br] [file={e_FILE}public/1309873933_2_FT79823_livestockguardiandogsk.pdf]livestockguardiandogsk.pdf[/file] I followed the reference to the USDA website and found the the AIB has been updated in 1999 and is not AIB 588. It has some very good points and in particular, I am going to use the guidance starting on page 11 with my next pup. Will let you know how it turns out. I added the updated bulletin to the [url=http://molosserdogs.com/downloads126.html]download section[/url]. It is a very good resource. -
Here is an excerpt from the article I posted above. It is interesting to read the stats about bites on humans. Dogs and Human Welfare Ownership of a guarding dog implies certain responsibilities. The traditional guarding breeds are large, powerful, and protective of their perceived territory. This territory should primarily include the livestock to be guarded, but it may also inclu de the owner’s house, yard, and family members, particularly if the dog was allowed access to these areas during the rearing process. How likely is it that a livestock guarding dog will bite someone? Much is dependent upon where the dog spends its time, and also on breed differences. In the survey of 763 livestock guarding dogs, 7 percent of the dogs had bitten people (17 percent of the Komondors, 9 percent of the Anatolian shepherds, 6 percent of the Akbash dogs, and 4 percent of the Great Pyrenees). Some dogs show more protective and aggressive traits than others, and it becomes the owner’s responsibility to protect people who may be at risk. Neighbors and guests should be alerted, and if necessary, signs or other appropriate warnings should be displayed. A guarding dog will likely include peripheral areas in its patrolling. This activity should be discouraged. Neighbors should be alerted to the fact that a dog may roam onto their property and that some predator control devices (e.g., traps, snares, and M -44’s) present a danger to the dog. (See section on “Integrated Livestock and Predator Management.â€) Many counties enforce stringent laws regarding owner responsibility for damage done by roaming dogs. It is in the best interest of the o wner, community, and dog to train the dog to stay in its designated area. Dogs used with herded or unherded range bands or in expansive pastures such as those found in some Western States may also roam at times. Under these circumstances, a roaming dog may pose little threat to safety and property. However, a dog roaming over a wide range provides little or no protection to the livestock it is supposed to be guarding.
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Interesting article..... Spaced on the fencing of the perimeter of my place I have about five or six signs WARNING LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOGS WORKING DO NOT DISTURB. One on the front gate. Unfortunately some people still come too close to the fence, but its getting better. I need to put up a few signs that say CAUTION STAY BACK FROM FENCE. On biting and breeds.....I would note from my own experiences with owning several breeds of LGDs there can be a vast difference between individuals within a breed so take the figures cited with a grain of salt. I own two Spanish Mastiff males. The largest one is intimidating enough merely from his size, and he seems to know it, and although he will sometimes charge the fence - or trot up to it more like - he is not aggressive towards people once introduced, or if they show no tendancy to provoke anything. My younger male mastine, on the other hand, has recently gone from being intimidating to downright aggressive at the fence. He will not let anyone touch him anymore other than myself. He will come up to the fence and if someone reaches in, he will snap at them. This has all just started in the last few months. When friends come in now, he will observe them, remain distant, but never quite take his eye off them. My female mastines, vary as well; some are vocal and intimidating at first then settle down and let people pet them. Others more aloof. My point being, within a breed, there will be vast differences. But again thanks for posting links, good information there. -
Of course you are right regarding the variation of dogs within a breed. For the most part there will be predictable behavior among dogs of any breed but there are significant influences from training, environment, function, and individual preferences which will cause behaviors to change in individuals. I think the info presented by the article is specific to the population of dogs in the survey which may fairly well represent the normal traits for dogs of x breed in x environment. Are there any implied liabilities regarding the signage on one's property in NV? -
Yes, there is implied liability in NV.... therefore signs must never say: caution, warning or imply that there are dangerous anumals on the property. My insurance agent specifically requested that I use only signs that state fact. I have two that say "Dogs on Premesis", also have some like Brenda's that state:"WARNING LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN DOGS WORKING DO NOT DISTURB"... beyond that there should be no signage that implys viciousness or probability of an attack or biting....... Kate
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I know of one LGD guarding some sheep, along with a llama in my area. A couple times when biking with one of my Tosas, this dog squeezed through his fence to come out in the road after me. Good thing he or she is not so aggressive (maybe cowardly), cuz when i hopped off my bike and went towards the dog to take a picture it shut up and backed away. Gotta be careful with those dogs, have some excellent fencing that they can't bypass.
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Seems the most common LGDs used outside of their country of origin (as genuine lgds) are - Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Maremma, Akbash, Komondor, Sarplaninac and Kuvasz, probably in that order. Here in australia LGDs aren't that popular (don't know why, graziers are constantly whining about losses to feral dogs and then putting poison baits everywhere, which pisses me off) but maremma and the odd akbash and anatolian seem to be getting a bit of work here and there. edit Another LGD http://www.canids.org/occasionalpapers//livestockguardingdog.pdf you've probably seen but just in case. [size=9]Admin edit. Posting a link is easy. Just copy and past the link from your browser address bar or the website. MD takes care of converting it to -link- as seen above in my edit. Just remember that the link will actually be converted to the word -link- and you can use it easily in a sentence as done above. 8-)[/size]
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your link not work, try this: http://www.canids.org/occasionalpapers/livestockguardingdog.pdf ...I have already read, thank you anyway
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As far as best, it comes down to the individual. For me, I would be the type that would want a violently aggressive breed towards predators (including bad people) but very loving with those that it trusts.
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The characteristics that LGD must have for me are two: 1 - aggression toward strangers and predators 2 - must spend more time close to the flock, in order to control at all times during the entire day on each shift. For the first point I think all the LGD are valid for the second I think there are major differences between one race and another. To better understand these differences you should consider the packs of dogs made ​​from a single race and not a mixture of races, and compare them. I think it is also more efficient in understanding each of them, for example in Abruzzo, Abruzzese shepherd dogs within the pack have several tasks, some dogs are more prone to attack the man ... those facing the predators ... other dogs while they are attacking remain with the flock ... when a sheep to give birth a dog often follows and stay with her until joins the flock ... What interested me know in this thread is just the difference between the races in the work by the owners who work or who have direct information, but not in packs made ​​up of mixed races, in this case the characteristics of a dog may not be a complete summary of the race.
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A dog, that can fight and can put down one so big wolf ! Wolf in northwestern Greece [img:width=500&height=335]{e_FILE}public/1310642011_16978_FT79823_wolf_in_northwestern_greece_.jpg"> -
Unless you're organising wolf vs dog pit fights that's not that important. LGDs have to be bonded to livestock first and foremost, attentive to them and alert and aware of their surroundings. Not prone to wandering etc. Just being there is enough to deter the vast majority of predation attempts, then being big and imposing with a good bark, and durable SHOULD a scuffle take place, these are the most important qualities in a livestock guarding dog. The ability to "kick a wolf's ass" is really way down the list, which is why the better LGDs aren't even the more formidable ones.
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This may be a very simplistic answer - but the best LGD it the one that guards your livestock and protect them from harm. Ok, that was really simple but you have to consider the variables that define the best LGD. Such as livestock, range, containment, climate, size, type of predator or threat, operating environment, training, owner participation, nutrition, the breed, and the dog.. yep there are many more variables but those are good for starters. So, if your dog protects your flock to suit your need then it is the best LGD for you. It is an individual assessment of the dog against what is expected of it that determines which is the best for the observer. .. was that confusing?
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Are there still rustlers out there? I've watched some old westerns where humans steal livestock, that stuff actually happen nowadays? Beware what you ask for wanting human aggressive dogs. Most farmers can't afford big fencing, those dogs are going to leave their properties and come after innocent people (like me) out on the road. If this dog bit me, the owner would be in a lot of trouble, maybe even go to jail. Perhaps it's liability that keeps the popularity of these dogs down.
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Actually tosamama, here in what we call the "ION" Idaho Oregon Nevada - and even recently documented in Merced and Mariposa counties, California...there has in the last year been a huge uptick in CATTLE RUSTLING. We are not talking a few head but 100's of head go missing. Unfortunately not many cowmen use LGD's (unlike in Spain where Mastin Espanol guard cattle). If they aren't tightwads (and too many are) they hire a range rider, someone who just rides through the stock all the time to keep tabs on them (not easy here when you are talking millions of acres of open range, BLM, deeded land, etc. As for extreme aggressiveness in LGDs......be careful for what you ask for. I have a female Kangal that would - if not stopped by fence - rip someone's throat out. Am I proud of it? Hardly. It is a great responsibility. She is a lamb with me, and my best friend who can handle her. Anyone else is given wide berth. If the walk up to the fence from outside, she practically comes inside out trying to get to them. She has never bit anyone but if provoked or teased, it would be all over, I know this. Same for outside dogs. There is an "a--hole" down the road who's big thrill in life is to drive his pick up truck by my place super slow with his pit bull and a mutt in the back, who of course non-stop bark and race in the truck bed as my dogs hit the fence trying to get at them. He does it on purpose to antagonize my dogs. I have taken to watching for him in the evening when he comes to get his mail from the boxes, and I walk up to my gate like I'm going to open it....evil grin. Of course if my dogs got out with my luck his truck would run over some of them but the ones it didn't would kill those dogs. Again, is this something to brag about, or be seriously responsible about.....I prefer the latter. I know what damage my dogs could inflict if incited and although of course I have peace of mind here for me and my stock, I also must continually keep vigilant to make sure the Kangal does not clear that fence someday. So far, its been good. Unfortunately in this sue-crazy world, you have a dog so fierce that it practically kills someone, can you afford to defend yourself when their family sues you? Think about the big picture.... Yes of course I want LGDs that can stop big predators and I am very confident I have those. But people? Well, I have a Kimber 1911 for that....grin......
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Yes, you want an LGD to at least bark if strange humans come by, but really what is it going to do when all criminals have guns and other weapons? I've also known some LGD's who are scary human aggressive, your life as you know it can end if a dog bites an innocent person. One female Sar, would sneak down the driveway to try to get at visitors while they were still in their car! A human aggressive dog, especially in North America is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
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