brindle, I don't know if you are aware, but there is competition for working dogs (especially german terriers) in fox and badger catching in their earth gapes,their natural habitat, and it is done under the FCI rulles. This can be very bloody and often some dogs stay desabled for rest of their lives, badger can messed them up prety bad. When people go to such competition with their dogs, nobody call them morons, and still, there is big chance that dog will not survive. :?: Testing of the old shepherd breeds is not a big deal, when you have that in mind what I've just wrote up there. That is the only way for shephardfolks to see what do they have in the yard, is that dog capable to owerpower predators or not, and they have to be shure that he is, otherways, if they do not test it before they go to the mountain pastures with their flocks, they risk to lose not only their dogs and sheeps but even their own life. So, if you are asking me am I OK with that kind of test fights, my answer is: YES I AM! Aleksa

brindle, It's not badger baiting, it's badger hunting and it's not illegal! I said that is done under the FCI (Federation Cynologique Internationale - in france, or english - International Cynology Federation), the biggest "dog" or kennel organisation in whole wide world! On those events, dogs are competing for CACT or CACIT titles, almost the same thing as CAC or CACIB titles. Difference is that CAC or CACIB are beauty titles and CACT or CACIT are titles given to dogs for their working abilities. CACT or CACIT (first one is: Candidate for National Working Champion; and second is:Candidate for International Working Champion) events are established for preserving charracter and natural instincts of certain breeds, because those things were main reasons why people started to breed them in first place! For so many centuries dogs were only man's helpers and not pets. I would like to see you brindle, at some mountains here on Balkan Peninsula, where the bears and wolfs would be your closest neghbours. Then I would ask you if you would test your dogs or risk everything just because you don't like that. Aleksa

Well, testing of dogs was done in two ways: 1. Dog vs. Dog 2. Dog vs. Wolf (rarely a bear) Dogs vs. Wolf way was done in a period when dog is around one year old. It was not the fighting test ofcorse, because the wolf is traped and sometimes badly wounded as you said it pes. Important thing for dog is to show that he have guts and currage to confront the wolf, because sometimes even that is enough to scare the predators, and if he don't do that (lack of selfconfedence), the dog was killed on the site, by his owner! I know it is cruel, but that's the way it is. Dog vs. Dog tests are done not that much to show dogs fighting skills, but rather to see which dog is more dominant. Custom in villages on Sarplanina is that winer of those turnaments is considered as the most dominant male specimen, and shepards would bring their females for mating to that dog. This is only custom of folks from Sarplanina Mountain region, I'm not speaking for the rest of the people. Ther is more, but I've allready wrote it in SARPLANINAC-ABORIGINAL TYPE forume on this site. Aleksa

Yes recercare, dog fighting of old mountain breeds in their natural soroundings is done today for money and I certainly do not aprove that. That is happening for last 30 or so years, but that was not the case in the past, because then, only treasures of those people were their flocks and their dogs, which provided life and survival for humans in those rural regions. In first half of 20th century it was almost imposible to buy a god dog from villagers, especially if that dog was victorious in battles with wolfs or bears, and even if the villagers would sell it, price was very high. You had to give them somethimes even 50 ewes for it, or gold and beside those two, there was no other way to get it. Pes, taking the bitches to the winner may not effect all population but that is the traditional belief of mountain folks. Their logic is: -Strong and fearless parrents will give you strong and fearless pups; so that's the way they do it. You can copy my answer, yes. Aleksa

In the old times at fighting tournametnts on Sarplanina villages there were no trophy's or prizes involved that I'm aware of. The biggest prize was pride of best dog's owner and respect of another participators. One of the ways to get something from villagers who have great breed specimens is to buy a pup from them, because they are more willing to sell it instead of full-grown dog, but the chances are that even then you can't expect that you'll get what you are loking for. In most cases, shepards will sell you a pup that they choose, and you are not alowed to pick the best one from the litter. I've learned that the easiest, and probably the best, way to collect some blood of those great working dogs is to bring your bitch to them for mating and then do your own selection among the pups. Aleksa

This is for jenga123 Selection of LGDs starts very early, from the first day that they were born. Bitches are welping, in most cases, in a hole in snow or dirth digged by them. Pups have to survive through those harsh winters and almost constant lack of food. The ones who manage to do that, are then observed by owners. If the pup is shy and easilly scared and winy, the shepherd eliminates it. I've personaly witnessed when a shepherd gave the skin of a freshly killed wolf to 40 day-old pups to play with it and observed what they are doing. For the first time in their lives they scented the smell of blood and smell of beast. Five pups aproached to smell it carefully. One of them started to squeal and then ran off. The four pups that stayed started to bite the skin and to growl. The shepherd then took the pup that ran off and killed it behind his house! When I found out what he did, I wanted to kill him myself, but I knew that I couldn't, it's their rule and right, and above all, he had four sons who would've killed me then. In the next period of the pups' lives, the shepherd observes how those puppies are counteracting with the sheep and how they are learning and taking the knowledge from the older dogs in their pack. If they are not good at it, he decides to sell them or give them away (but that happens very rarely). Then, when the pups are 9 to 12 months old, shepherds test them with wolves, trapped somewhere in the mountains. If the dog attacks the wolf determinatly, he stays in his pack, and if not, he is being killed! In the period before 9 months of age, shepherds usually leave the pups at home when they are going to their mountain pastures, because at that age pups are just another easy prey for wolves because they aren't fully developed. Testing of a dog with another dog is done, as I've already said it in my previous posts here, for determination of dominance of dogs and is done usually when the dog is older then 12 months. This gives the shepherd information about the dogs for mating, 'cause if he doesn't have a dog that is the strongest, bravest and most dominant, he will be pairing his bitches with the one that is, and the winner on those kind of tournaments is the [u]one.[/u]. Aleksa

It doesn't work that way recercare, you know. Breeds like CO, CAO and Sarplaninac, simply know what their duty is, it is written in their gene codes. The dogs that can't bond are eliminated from the pack as pups, or simply stay at home as guardians. One of legendary Sarplaninacs, called Sari, in his 9 years long life never went with sheeps to pastures. Durring the day, he stayed in his masters cabin and sleep, but every evening when sheeps come back from the mountain in to the barn with three other dogs, Sari is coming out and starts his guardin. Every night he circled around the barn and cabin in a mile wide circle and not even once failed to do his duty, and he killed more then 10 wolfs in his life, all at his night guards. He was the most precious dog of all four for his master. Usually there is one male and few females in pack that is guarding sheeps. Females are so called "alarming device" and they are usually the first that spots the enemy, and first ones that take some action and if they can't manage to overpower, the predators then the large male starts his show with the help of the females ofcours. Breeds like Shars, COs an CAOs are not the dogs that are moving far away from flocks in order to find and chase of the paredators , like to clear the path for the sheeps. They are staying very close to flock in order to defend it with all their power if some danger occures. So you see, they don't act like GSD or Border Colie, they are not trying to find the predators, they act more like profesional bodygards. If the danger is there, they will stand infront of you (or the flock) and defend and protect you and even risk their own life if it is neceseary. To go back on your example. If I had those three dogs that you have listed and the third one is best fighter, then yes, I woul go with him for breeding. Aleksa

When I said that it doesn't work that way, I meant your choice of picking No 1. dog for breeding. Shepherds do not think that way. They actually do not care that much if dog doesn't bond to its flock as long as the dog doesn't do anything that could harm the sheep. And if that dog tends to be or is a great fighter and wolf killer, then he is the best one for them. That's how it works in the mountains and in the heads of shepherds and that has been their way of stud selection for ages. I know that they are risking to lose such a valuable dog in those fights and they are aware of that too, but they'll do it anyways. I have to give them credit for this, because that way of selection through the centuries built that famous character of those breeds, the character which makes them respected and popular in the whole world today, the character that leaves people (which are introduced to those breeds for the first tim ) stunned, amazed and overwhelmed. Thank you for respecting my opinion and you have your God given right to agree or disagree with it. :wink: Aleksa

[quote=Skive]Well there are a lot of LGD breeds in many different countries and in most of them that "testing" thing doesen´t exist. Still they are great LGD´s and fight wolves and other predators with the same fierceness, dedication and effectiveness as those of the balkans and caucasus. I don´t think that LGD´s need to be tested, they´ll show what they´re made of when needed. They don´t need to be champion fighters or to fight a wounded wolf to be effective guards. It flows in their veins.[/quote] Don't necessarily disagree with you ... but we also must agree that those breeders have done a great job maintaing and selecting their breeders. Maybe we should not only look for the methods but, and especially, also for their results. Nanci

[quote=TiagoF]"we shouldn´t take these dogs and their temperament for granted but when I said that and LGD will show what he´s made of when needed I was thinking of a good working dog." And which test would determine a good working dog? Tiago[/quote] The best test is indeed work the dogs in their "natural enviroment". Nothing is better than that. Any person that use their LGD dogs as LGD 24h//7h will know who are the best, and who is able to do their works and how isn't - well, those who aren't able will be elimaneted by natural selection. But, unfortunally, not many breeders work their dogs and many of them only focus on "shows", and when talking about working breed is not a good thing ... So, if we cannot work our dogs, if we do love the breed and we are agains't fighting or any "ancetral tests" it's time to make a new kind of test .. why not make a simple TAN, testing corage and "protective instints" ? Nanci

[quote=TiagoF]Is the purpose of the dog to be a LGD?[/quote] Boas Isn't the Sparla., the Estrela and all the others mainly bred and used as LGD/guardians ? If so, I believe we should keep them true to their origins Nanci

[quote=TiagoF]if they are going to be LGD , traditional tests ( whatever they are ) will assure the best results. Tiago[/quote] Agree. But being used as LGD or as guardian, the dogs have to have 3 commom characteristics (at least), that is: being protective, having the guts (corage) and being indepedent (man independent). Plus, if used (tested) as guards, we must understand that they are not, and will not work, as a GSD. But, now a big problem arises ... how to test this breeds (estrela, caos, kangals.. ? nanci

[quote=Skive]I never heard of shepherds testing their Estrelas in any way...I understand that it may be a costume in the balcans and in caucasus, but we should understand that in many places that doesen´t exist and doesen´t need to exist. Here in Portugal shepherds often don´t even choose their breeders and when they do they choose them based in their working abilities. You must not forget that shepherds often have more than one dog and as a pack animal dogs often fight with eachother and build up their hierarchy. Shepherds are often aware of this and naturaly tend to choose as breeders the alpha dogs.[/quote] The problem is that many breeders don't use their dogs as lgds .. how should they test their dogs? nanci