Bloodlines and Breeding
Agreed John! :wink:
Replies (19)
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I have been thinking about this for some time now and still don't know if I will articulate the questions correctly. Anyway here goes. 1. How important is bloodline when it comes to improving the health and functionality of a breed? In breeds such as the Caucasian Ovcharka, Central Asian Ovcharka, American Pit Bull Terrier and the Neapolitan Mastiff, I often hear a significant amount of importance placed on bloodlines where breeding is considered. 2. So, does adherence to bloodlines reduces the breeds vitality by narrowing its gene pool? If we consider the dogs’ adherence to the standard and try to move closer to the ideal dog as described by the standard, I think that would better serve the breed. 3. So, would we better serve the breed based on the attributes of the individual dog regardless of bloodlines when we consider any breeding. and finally. 4. Is the adherence to bloodline breeding ruining any of the breeds mentioned above? Please reply to this post openly and honestly and don't use it as an opportunity to belittle anyone or breed. -
1) A healthy dog with a proven working track record & good type is more important than any bloodline .... 2) YES 3)YES 4) YES I AM ONLY SOVEREIGN UNTO MYSELF......
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Agreed John! :wink: -
[quote="gsicard"]I have been thinking about this for some time now and still don't know if I will articulate the questions correctly. Anyway here goes. 1. How important is bloodline when it comes to improving the health and functionality of a breed? In breeds such as the Caucasian Ovcharka, Central Asian Ovcharka, American Pit Bull Terrier and the Neapolitan Mastiff, I often hear a significant amount of importance placed on bloodlines where breeding is considered. 2. So, does adherence to bloodlines reduces the breeds vitality by narrowing its gene pool? If we consider the dogs’ adherence to the standard and try to move closer to the ideal dog as described by the standard, I think that would better serve the breed. 3. So, would we better serve the breed based on the attributes of the individual dog regardless of bloodlines when we consider any breeding. and finally. 4. Is the adherence to bloodline breeding ruining any of the breeds mentioned above? Please reply to this post openly and honestly and don't use it as an opportunity to belittle anyone or breed.[/quote] Very interesting thread Gary! Here goes: 1- It is very important because if properly chosen from field tested individuals will bring certain traits that will make a difference. It all depends on how this bloodline is built. Some people think they have a bloodline after having a few generations of matings...THIS IS not a bloodline. A Bloodline is a family of dogs that throws certain characteristics...Otherwise you have good dogs from scatterbred matings. 2- Not at all. It depends on how the bloodline was built and tested. Some of the most influential APBTs and Greyhounds in history have been tightly bred with no loss of vitality or health. In either breed, outcrossing to another bloodline is almost as introducing fresh blood from a crossbreeding, because of how well planned the breeding programs have been. 3- If we are talking about a high quality individual, thats ok. But I would rather have a GREAT dog from a proven family of dogs. 4- Within the APBT, when choosing a family of dogs you are doing it knowing first hand what you will get. Thats how a well bred program is run. With the Neo, it is not easy to find well bred, healthy dogs. The animals are being inbred for the wrong reasons (mostly aesthetic) and this increases the loss of valuable traits, such as health and athleticism. Then, to prevent this, some people crossbreed into other molossers, plagued with recessive genes that will result in more issues down the road. On the first, second, third generation, you may be alright, but sooner or later, those issues are going to surface. Recessives dont always come up with inbreeding...they also come up with POOR outcrossing practices. If you match two dogs completely unrelated that CARRY the same fault as a recessive, you will have that surfacing. If you spend some time studying, most of the molosser breeds tend to suffer from the same issues (lack of drive, poor health, weak nerve, etc).
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l agree with the gist of Tiagos thread lt is not about breeding to any bloodline, but to a bloodline that contains the traits you want and is healthy. l dont see it as an "either / or" situation , but both should come into play. lf l choose an outstanding working individual that l know has excellent health and has been chosen for ability and stamina, then a dog from "that" bloodline will have the same make up. "Bloodline" is not the dirty word, it is just how it is used and what for. Tony
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The bloodline or pedigree is a history & map of how the genes express themselves. Objective study will offer improved odds in reaching desired results. The problem with looking at the individual dog is that it may have been the only proper & healthy one from a litter. Further, traits do skip generations. Females may produce puppys that carry thier fathers type vs. the sire of the litter's type. Something that looking at the bloodline will give clues to. Better to concider a breeding prospect from a litter of consistant type dogs vs. the one single good example of a breed. Another concideration is how much temperment & working ablity is breed in vs. put-on my the handler? Again somethging that is hard to deterime by only looking ast one dog.
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To me it is about the dog,but i feel those questions are loaded, you could argue are both sides forever. In essence if people bred best to best traits would be easy to define in bloodlines but thats not always the case.this is basicly performance or type. Let the function define form which sets bloodline. and a bloodline is in my yard 5-6 gen. ultimatly 15 gens but thats a long long time Realdogs Dosa.......get in game or stay on the bench.
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One's philosophy on breeding is also based on how one view the dogs value in the skeem of life. Some view the dog as meerly a tool to do a job, be it hunt, or win awards. & generate profit. Some want the total package, a form & funtion and a long healthy live. Breeding for ANY single trait is short sighted at best. No matter how much one whats to break it down to best to best.....The Genetic puzzle remains more complecated.
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With current breeding practices & the world being a smaller place :ie the shipping of & use frozen semen you have homozgous populations of dogs ....Example : ABPTs : Chinaman , Eli very inbred upon , Mastino : Tyson della grotta azzura , you have dogs here in the states that are 4x inbred on him :?: :?: Black Mouthed Curs : Wheatherfords Ben linebred heavily on..HD is becoming more previlant...in BMC HD was never really considered a problem :?: :?: & Lists go on & on ...When dogs are viewed as a commodity or a ego booster, health & mental problems, in the dogs not the owners :wink: , are par for the course... When dogs are left in their traditional setting & jobs , health & mental problems ARE less...ALOT LESS... Sometimes it is better to leave well enough alone ...
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1) Animals don't always pass their qualities to their offpsring. To judge what kind of offspring a dog will produce, it is necessary to evaluate its relatives as well as the dog itself. If quantifiable data are available, the best way to do this is by calculating a Breeding Value. See for example the [url=http://siriusdog.com/articles/sv-zuchtwert-program.htm]SV Zuchtwert program[/url] 2) If linebreeding/inbreeding is used to form the bloodlines, then quite possibly the average vitality and health status of the breed will be lower than what it could be if proper selection was combined with inbreeding avoidance. Inbreeding does not narrow the gene pool, but it decreases heterozygosity thus making defective recessive genes express themselves. Usually bloodlines are established through the mating of relatives. Some breeders however prefer to mate phenotypically similar (like to like) dogs as the means to achieve a distinct phenotype. The latter is a safer way to create a bloodline. 3) See No1 4) Not per se, but using inbreeding to establish bloodlines, small numbers of founders, closed studbooks and the overuse of popular sires have led to inbreeding depression. The proof is in the studies that show that mixed breed dogs live longer and have fewer health problems than purebred dogs.
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Warthdog, Some breeders use the phenotype method as a means to start linebreeding, to establish common traits and to have some uniformity before tightening the gene pool. The problem arises when people dont know when to outcross to a completely new gene pool...But that in itself is a whole different matter. Regards
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This is a complex field very dificult to explain in a single post reply. The deep wisdom in breeding its someting that are not in the mind of the novices and even in the experient breeder. The bloodline in this case means Genealogy (pedigree). Its a method very well knowing to anyone that using cientifique approach in breeding program. A definition of Combination Capacity is important to know... The hybrid vigor stability environment is in function of the heterozygosis that appeared in mating between the progenitors that has been selected. The aims to developed Hybrids is identify the bloodlines that’s have the high vigor, because the both combine very good. Two types of combination can be distinguished. The General Capacity of Combination (GCC) that’s referring to the ability that one progenitor offspring has the same behavior, when mating with serial different progenitors. The Specific Capacity of Combination (SCC) refers to a behavior from the specific combination, which can vary from the expect base of GCC. This behavior will be very important during the select best puppies, the stud dogs and the best line over all breeding program between the hybrids lines. And the Hybrid lines: . Hybrids lines. A variety hybrid is a progeny mating by two types of progenitors genetically different. On the real world to develop a new line hybrid is more complex that this definition suggest. There phenomenon called Hybrid Vigor is the best benefits to make a Hybrid. But one of the biggest misconceptions of hybrid vigor is that it applies just in F1 mating. Hybrid Vigor applies better on the individuals that have homozygosis genes and with direct offspring of the crossing of the unrelated strains. In other words if you continue to breed the offspring in F2 you lose the vigor. Hybrids can also cause problems if widely divergent genes types due to differences in attributes (genes segregation). The breeder must be a special ability in select the better puppies with “the knowledge eyes” like an artist has. 1-Question: In case of APBT that we have the pedigree back to 1890 in some lines and all those dogs (ADBA) had came from Fighting tested, the pedigree reveal all the important knowlodge about the better combinations betwen the strains involved. Sometimes the gene manifest after 2 or 3 generations. Most of people in this case coud think that the sire or dam did not pass the genes and will do not use the offspring...and lost the oportunity to wait more 1 or 2 generations to produce a stud Dog. All the narrow cross in those pedigrees are allied to wide cross and back cross trying to add and delect good and bad genes. In the case of Health problems the wide cross and narrow cross after its a common strategy. You can see this studying pedigree of APBT. -
[quote=jaboa]A healthy dog with a proven working track record & good type is more important than any bloodline .... [/quote] Indeed.
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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=1999 This is the Pedigree of one of the best stud form Pat Patricks yard, Gonzale's No Regret Very famous dog...Narrow Cross Program and some Wide cross probably because the 3 lines involved had combination capacity.If you search all generations you will see, sometimes a alien blood probably when ht vigor comes down In the pedigree you can see in the fourth generations 4 champions Sire: Indian Bolio Indian Bloomers Dam: Indian Bolio Grenwwod Oakie But just after 2 generations you see anothers champions : Indian Mister and Frank Kenia(Hard Bite) And finaly Gonzales No regret. (Hard Bite) Hard Bite is not a feature the pass easily because its many genes involved, unless tthe dog came from hard bite line like No regret. In the same pedigree back to 30's You can see another case: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=881 A famous dog Hard Bite and with unusual Head Conformation CORVINO'S BRADDOCK (14XW) come from a Wide Cross.In fourth generations you can see just unrelated genes , diferents lines.In those times the dogs had been still imported from Europe. In the second generations you can see TAYLOR'S BUGLAR with blanck pedigree .Could be a alien blood? to add vigor? Who knows!from sire is very knowing dogs from Armitage/Colbys strain all with small heads.
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[quote=Xamen13"][quote="jaboa]A healthy dog with a proven working track record & good type is more important than any bloodline .... [/quote] Indeed.[/quote] If the healthy dog with a proven working track record & good type come from weak bloodline , probably his is a Hybrid with Vigor and they can pass his qualities to a offspring.Unless the bitch have unrelated blood and will be another Hybrid , Tri-cross.But genetic is a field that reserves many unknowing happens.
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3. So, would we better serve the breed based on the attributes of the individual dog regardless of bloodlines when we consider any breeding. Better use many topics. 1-Pedigree Studying 2-Individuals Attributes (performance) 3-use dogs and lines with high level of Capacity of Combination 4-Define a standard flexible (work) to better select young dogs. 5-Select different attributes from female and males. 6-Work at least with 3 line .Two different but in homozigotic and one heterozigotic.
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[quote="Platz"]One's philosophy on breeding is also based on how one view the dogs value in the skeem of life. Some view the dog as meerly a tool to do a job, be it hunt, or win awards. & generate profit. Some want the total package, a form & funtion and a long healthy live. Breeding for ANY single trait is short sighted at best. No matter how much one whats to break it down to best to best.....The Genetic puzzle remains more complecated.[/quote] indeed
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