American Bulldog - Johnson vs. Scott

Hybrid
  • Do you also agree that EBTs lean more towards the terrier side?
    • SH!TACULAR, LMAO
      • I can't take credit for sh!tacular, I must give credit to my good friend Wolf for that one, and many more I shouldn't put here. A breed *can* be set in as little time as the creator thinks it takes. It could be around for 1000 years and never be a breed but a regional type. It would take a massive overhaul of the ENTIRE community involved in the AB for the ab to take the right strides to become something serious in terms of "breed". There is sooooooooooo much more politics, backstabbing, lieing and flat out stealing in the breed for anything progressive to happen. That, and every sucker out there trying to make a quick buck, also every breeder now miraculously had these ancient dogs in their families for 200 years(a bs story banking on the ignorance of the public) and exactly what I've said, any fool can make one. You are hard pressed to find a ghetto or backwoods area that doesn't have a ton of pits, ton of bulldogs and ton of crap being intermixed into oblivion, and are even more hard pressed to find a uniform litter in the AB. As far as the EBT, you have been led astray by the head, there is MUCH more to those demonic little SOBs than you'd think. They are just (usually) so much smarter than their owner, that they dumb down to meet their surroundings. Meet some, you'll change your views, I promise, I did.
        • Funny to see the rest of the world catching on to the quality in ebts. We've known about it in australia for a long time, they have in pakistan as well I suppose. Even gave them funny new breed names, which is a mark of respect in those parts I gather.
          • Yes AB's have unfortunately been plagued with "start from scratch" AB's. I won't mention names, but they are how some black AB's came to be developed. Most are Boston terrier based and I believe boxer may have been used for more size.
            • Unable to thank, but Thanks to Tonedog in his last post. The EBT, I'm torn, should they remain the little gold mine being over looked, or should they gain their rightful reputation for being gold mines.... I just don't know how I feel about it. The black bulldogs... have been around as long as the breed, it was just culled because they were trying in everyway to distance them from the APBT, by dropping the name "pit" from the original name and any color known to be a give away(blacks, tans with black masks). But they are being sold today as a cash cow... which is both sad and understandable. Sad because they are being reproduced for no other reason, and understandable because people are supporting their families on these mongrels in this day of hard to find jobs. I have seen black dogs on kennel videos from some of the biggest breeders around 15 years ago, I've seen rottweiler and Dobie in Billy Hines kennel video and MANY of the black bulldogs go back to his stock. Jus' sayin'
              • I think the line between "pure" and "mixed" abs, and "good" and "bad" Abs is not the same thing. Seriously excellent ABs may have been mixed yesterday, while really shitty ones might have been pure for 40 + years. If anything I think this would be the case, real working dogs simply aren't kept pure. If there's a correlation it would be with purer ABs (crossed ab to ab for longer) tending to be worse and further from what ABs are supposed to be than mongrel mixed up ABs with pitbulls and catahoulas and bullmastiffs in their recent history. Starting from scratch is a different thing again though, you can still produce great gripping dogs no doubt, but calling them american bulldogs without a shred of american bulldog history in them would seem a bit suspect. Calling a strain of american bulldog with lots of outside influences repeatedly through history and continuing in the present day, american bulldogs, OTOH, is perfectly fine, and in fact anything less, being kept "pure", is what I would argue is actually turning into something other than a real american bulldog. Because they, like everything, are supposed to be mutts. So continueing with mutt-style breeding would be the correct way to keep them "pure" american bulldogs.
                • [quote1320802062=acamper] [quote1320797358=Crnosrce1] Which equalsa not listening to any douche on the street, which in turn is seen as "not as nice of a dog" which is why I said not liking or being nice to just everyone, which is why I'd choose a dog like your Kaiser over ANY gamebred or any APBT for that matter if I were to create an AB. In my opinion, the APBT is over used and over hyped, sorry ain't changing it. [/quote1320797358] I agree TOTALLY with overused AND overhyped. It's like they're superFRIGGINdogs almost Godlike in that NO dog can stand up to them. I feel 99% of the blame falls on the media and THEIR sensationalism of the breed, (Poor raising doesn't help either). EVERYONE, well not everyone but quite a few people feel that APBTs are baby killing, devil dogs, VERY hard to overcome. That is the sole reason that I would bypass ANY APBT, SBT, AMSTAFF and still not sure about the EBT. I have to agree with Mike that I'd be inclined to use a DECENTLY bred EB before one of the bull/TERRIERS. Isn't it the terrier that brings out the aggression and the BULL side the gameness/COURAGE? [/quote1320802062] I have to agree with you on some points here. But let's look at the direction the Ebt has gone vs the apbt. I don't think anyone doubts that finding a good throwback ebt that hasn't gone the show direction is hard to come by. On the other hand there are still countless lines of apbt that are bred for performance. And really to be honest it may in fact come down to a numbers game. Given the number of apbt vs the ebt still bred for performance for countless generations. On the other hand if there were still a high number of ebt bred with strict performance measures it would probably be quite a different story. Again this isn't to say that ebt crosses can't be great working examples. Obviously as Gun is well aware they are quite accomplished in Australia.
                  • People can breed whatever they want and call it anything they feel like. They can buy and feed whichever version of any given breed they care to. If they bought an AB, they have an AB. There are papers proving their claims in most cases. IF the breed is a boardog, then every single AB should be of such heritage. If it protects, cool. If it works man like a heathen, but won't catch... Is it an AB? Will it fight, but won't defend? If it's a bulldog and an American Bulldog on top of that, the dog [u]must be one[/u]. If you want to add papers to such a dog to "elevate" it from the common pigger class, knock yourself out. All the better. However, hundreds of litters born to parents not belonging to the same breed (not so important), same type (somewhat important) and the same working background (very important) can all have the same papers.
                    • [quote1320802943=Crnosrce1] Unable to thank, but Thanks to Tonedog in his last post. The EBT, I'm torn, should they remain the little gold mine being over looked, or should they gain their rightful reputation for being gold mines.... I just don't know how I feel about it. The black bulldogs... have been around as long as the breed, it was just culled because they were trying in everyway to distance them from the APBT, by dropping the name "pit" from the original name and any color known to be a give away(blacks, tans with black masks). But they are being sold today as a cash cow... which is both sad and understandable. Sad because they are being reproduced for no other reason, and understandable because people are supporting their families on these mongrels in this day of hard to find jobs. I have seen black dogs on kennel videos from some of the biggest breeders around 15 years ago, I've seen rottweiler and Dobie in Billy Hines kennel video and MANY of the black bulldogs go back to his stock. Jus' sayin' [/quote1320802943] I should have been more clear. There are certainly lines of black bulldogs that have been around forever. And I actually thoroughly enjoy these lines as many are bred for performance.The specific lines I'm referring to have less mouth than a boxer and a very flawed structure. I believe some these kennels to be quite new but also gaining popularity.
                      • [QUOTE]Unable to thank, but Thanks to Tonedog in his last post. The EBT, I'm torn, should they remain the little gold mine being over looked, or should they gain their rightful reputation for being gold mines.... I just don't know how I feel about it. [/QUOTE] I'm not concerned with preserving the ebt to be honest, my view is when these great ebts are found they should be crossed with other great dogs, of any breed. I actually say take the good ones away from the pure breeders, they're just trying to bring them down, save the good ebts from that world and introduce them to awesome world of working dogs, which will ofcourse mean breeding with dogs that look different to themselves, who knows they might like it. Variety is the spice of life, can't imagine an egghead pin-eyed ebt is too appealing sexually even to another ebt LOL!
                        • Even then,I think ya gotta dope the female up to like a male egg head LOL
                          • I AM listening BUT I have one last concern. Aren't EBTs priced extremely high? And I'm sure this stems from the show crowd, unique shaped head and all.
                            • The purebred EBT fancy, generally speaking, has been fairly snobby and elitist in nature for a long time. The "pure" thing is like the biggest deal to them. Their pricing keeps the "workers" away and that's why the pit is the go-to... Could be, but it could also come from pits being much much cheaper anyway. Hand in hand like that these matters go, Yoda. Pits are everywhere, cost little and are replaceable, whereas the EBT isn't as omnipresent and it costs a bit on top. P.S. The general public was successfully convinced that the EBT is a waste of time. By the EBT fancy. Score. P.P.S. Eastern Europe, S.Africa and Australia excluded, obviously. (a)
                              • Thanks Wolf, I can see that.
                                • I think there's some misconceptions and misinformation being thrown out there about ab's in this thread. A johnson dog, or a scott dog, or a hybrid or any other moniker does not a good protection dog make. Its the individual, and honestly finding a good, truly civil ab that can do serious protection work seems to be a rarity. They just don't have that depth of defense that type of work seems to call for. You can make a maneater out of some of them, but its not what they are really good at. In my opinion of course. As for the good ab's being recent crosses, and the ones with honest papers being junk...well I guess I'd say I disagree. I've seen just as many good as bad examples of either. And about the good ones coming from straight hunting stock...I guess that'd be dependant on what you consider good. Some of my favorite ab's in the breed didn't come from a hunting dog for 40 years. Most standard/scott american bulldogs don't even come from a strictly hunting background. Bill Hines did have rottweilers, no mistake there. But most of the black dogs that do go back to Hines dogs, are not colored because of the hines dogs behind them. Nor do they show any rottie traits IMO. And I'd be surprised to see any evidence of english bull terrier behind the american bulldog. And as for black lines having less mouth than a boxer and very flawed structure... I haven't seen them all, but the black dogs I have seen, comprising 3 different lineages and several different breeding directions, have all been correct and had considerably more mouth than any boxer I've yet seen. My best advice to the original poster, get out and see a bunch of ab's if thats what you think interests you...go to kennels, go to shows, and see for yourself. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
                                  • [quote1320855428=Crnosrce1] Alan, There isn't a breed out there that isn't plagued with health issues of some form. That being said, yes Boxers and EB's do have some bad health problems, but there are lines out there who still keep a good healthy dog. Dogos are prone to deafness and have little to no man aggro, but I'm not using them to bring Man work out. EB's cross like, as I very recently was told by yet another dogman, hidden gold. I've seen many a EB cross dog who was a hellion and healthy and lived long. I'd be using them for their willingness to take on anything. I'd be using the EBT for their ridiculous bite, strong will and personality, and the raw power they possess and how well they cross and are easily hidden in the cross. Boxers are athletic as shit, and some are still very much a functional bulldog. Again, these are the breeds Id be looking to find the correct INDIVIDUAL animals for use, not just any sh!tacular example I can get my hands on. I'm not opposed to using a Staffy Bull if the right example happens my way. I am not opposed to throwing some gundog like pointer in there, again if the right dog comes along. Tonedog, I understand and agree with just about everything you just posted. I'd call them an AB, because I have seen breeders start entire bloodlines on these cross dogs without a single drop of "ab" blood in there, and they have world champions. I won't divuldge what lines, but they are most deffinitely out there. The BEST bulldogs I have seen in an extremely long time are owned by a member here, Realdoggesyndicate. I saw them in person, I had nothing bad to say about them, and they're straight catchdog bred to catchdog, with NO brood bitches(meaning bitches work even if they have say old pups) for 40 years. [/quote1320855428] I find this post odd, considering your fore-mentioned post on consistency. You speak of consistency, yet you advocate the English Bulldog as a foundation dog for a performance breeding program? I hate to sound confrontational, but I'd consider NONE of the breeds you mentioned as foundation dogs. As I mentioned earlier, it's quite simple to have an esoteric conversation about "which breeds" you'd choose in order to achieve the goal of XYZ. It's been my experience that in the event these esoteric conversations come to fruition and become breeding "programs," the result is commonly that the progeny of such "programs" end up on shelter floors. This is merely the result of genetics. It is erroneous to believe that if you interbreed several breeds based on what's considered their optimal traits, that the resultant dogs will have more than an average chance of displaying these optimal traits with any consistency. You mention the English Bulldog as a dog "willing to take on anything." You'd use the EBT for their "ridiculous bite and raw power." Dogos you say, "have little no no man aggro." The Boxer you'd use because, "they're athletic as shit." So the resultant dogs would be athletic as shit dogs, with ridiculous bites and raw power, and will take on anything." Correct? Let's say this...Assume that you take your supreme examples of said breeds, and that you devise a formula as to the what % of which breed will go into the mix and which respective genders will be used. The English Bulldog manifests itself by throwing pups with proportionally large craniums that get stuck in the birth canal. Oh, and those heads also have extremely undershot, non-functional jaws which render drastically reduced the bite power of the EBT. In addition, there was epilepsy a generation back. Unfortunately, you were unaware of that. So that's been passed. Oh and the structure of the Boxer, with it's exagggeratedly deep and narrow chest...Well the resultant diminished lung capacity that comes with that form was also reproduced in these dogs. As was its weak heart. Combined with the English Bulldog's inability to breath cleanly...Not a good combo. As for the influence of the Dogo in this "program," well it's quite inaccurate to say the breed has "little to no man aggro." The Dogo is typically an incredibly rank driven breed that shows sharp handler sensitivity during man-work. I know you mentioned you'd not use the Dogo in such a capacity. However, those traits were passed as well. That doesn't bode well for any prospective owners with young children in the house. The dogs did inherent the keen tracking nose of the Dogo. However, their forms once again betrays them in that they become winded quite quickly when cold scenting whilst on the run. So yeah, you do the math and tell me if the above scenario is remotely possible...
                                    • Sure, if you want to take the absolute worst shit examples, yes those things happen. Also, extreme features go away in crosses due to genes wanting to take the path of least resistance. It takes a lot of effort to screw a dog up as bad as you are portraying, and a lot of breeding for shit reasons. I've never seen a dogo to be rank, but hey I'm open to it. I also know lines who have used all the aforementioned dogs and turn out just fine. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But, why are people so quick to knock any of the other bull breeds than the APBT? Why is it so far out of the ordinary for people to use whatever they had and turned out having great dogs? I just don't get the staunch only pure AB mentality anymore. I do agree with Pauly, go and see as many kennels, dogs and trainers as you can and see if this is the breed you wanna screw around with. Peace and chicken grease
                                      • [quote1320862417=Crnosrce1] Sure, if you want to take the absolute worst shit examples, yes those things happen. Also, extreme features go away in crosses due to genes wanting to take the path of least resistance. It takes a lot of effort to screw a dog up as bad as you are portraying, and a lot of breeding for shit reasons. I've never seen a dogo to be rank, but hey I'm open to it. I also know lines who have used all the aforementioned dogs and turn out just fine. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But, why are people so quick to knock any of the other bull breeds than the APBT? Why is it so far out of the ordinary for people to use whatever they had and turned out having great dogs? I just don't get the staunch only pure AB mentality anymore. I do agree with Pauly, go and see as many kennels, dogs and trainers as you can and see if this is the breed you wanna screw around with. Peace and chicken grease [/quote1320862417] I don't believe its about knocking other bull breeds. A good dog is where you find it. And as mentioned other countries have used the Ebt with success. In the states though its much easier to obtain good working performance bred apbts than Ebts. Sure you could probably search long and hard to find a good ebt in the states and probably end up paying much more or settle for a sub par show bred ebt that you'll still pay too much for, or you could import one and pay even more. But why ? If you can obtain an athlete selectivly bred by strict performance measures. Certainly you can find good examples in other bull breeds but some more than others.
                                        • There is SOME truth to the AVERAGE EBT being more expensive than the average APBT perhaps...but if you compare them average to average...the APBT wins in performance. Then there is essentially NO TRUTH that the best EBT is more expensive than the best APBT. The bottom line is top performing APBT not only outperform the best EBT, but they also bring MUCH MORE money...some times tens of thousands. This gyp is a gyp I used to own. I did not show her, as that is not my thing. I gave her to the owner of the stud I bred her to...but she is now in China and brought top dollar. I have never heard of an EBT bringing the type of money this gyp brought. [link=http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=267050]http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=267050[/link] Frankly, I get tired of hearing about how Europe has the best...when they generally don't have the best in a good many of breeds. I also get tired of hearing about working dogs from historian experts that don't work their dogs...as often times these historians are intimidated by a real working dog and have no idea how to handle a highly capable working K9 from an array of working breeds. God bless America...
                                          • The best ebts would probably be the cheapest ones.
                                            • [quote1320881533=LeeRobinson] ...the APBT wins in performance. [/quote1320881533] You have no way of knowing that. [quote1320881632=Tonedog] The best ebts would probably be the cheapest ones. [/quote1320881632] Not necessarily, especially without qualifying "best" first. The EBT is loved by two groups of people; the folks who love the breed as is and those who love what the EBT brings. Everyone else falls under general dog fan. Crossed and "low type" EBTs are better workers by default, since the "top shelf" pure stuff doesn't get worked in 99% of cases. But a quality EBT is a juggernaut for working dog programmes, it's not rarely employed because it's crap, it's just not as available as the alternatives. That doesn't make the breed awesome or "better than" anything, it's just what's behind it. When EBTs were more available and before BSL and accompanying restrictions forced their fancy to get über-responsible, they were used a LOT. For a lot. The EBT deserved its reputation. Doesn't make it better than anything, it just makes it something. Or at least - more than nothing, opposed to what's routinely being ignorantly spread by pit-fan wannabes. It's just lack of education. P.S. I'd simultaneously agree and disagree with your assessment of any bull-n-terrier being just a bull-n-terrier when crossed regardless of breed. In general, sure. But there are breeds and there are differences, especially in what can be offered in a cross. It's not just little things.
                                              • [quote1320885227=Wolf] [quote1320881533=LeeRobinson] ...the APBT wins in performance. [/quote1320881533] You have no way of knowing that. [/quote1320885227] Only in the dreams of an ostrich that has his head in the sand would someone make such a foolish statement.
                                                • Okay just let me clarify, I AM the original poster and I ALREADY own an AB so I have no interest or NEED to look at breeders, shows and anything else. My reason behind starting this thread, and it HAS been VERY interesting, but I was only curious about other's opinions regarding the better POTENTIAL protection dog, Johnson or Scot. It did get SERIOUSLY sidetracked, LMAO but I'm REALLY curious as to HOW did it STRICTLY turn into a discussion about EBTs?
                                                  • Well, we took 1 left turn, so why not 2? LOL
                                                    • It has been interesting AND FUN, LOL.
                                                      • In all honesty, its good to learn about all things that may or may not have been added into the breed you own. I mean, wouldn't you wanna know why you're dog may do certain things? Could be passed on from something in the woodpile ;-)
                                                        • LOL, I don't know if I'll get deeply enough involved doggiedom to THOROUGHLY dig into the history of dog breeds, even my own. It IS interesting to read here on MD though!
                                                          • [quote1320900173=LeeRobinson] [quote1320885227=Wolf] [quote1320881533=LeeRobinson] but if you compare them average to average...the APBT wins in performance. [/quote1320881533] You have no way of knowing that. [/quote1320885227] Only in the dreams of an ostrich that has his head in the sand would someone make such a foolish statement. [/quote1320900173] Not trying to argue one way or the other, just asking. Lee, what do you mean exactly, performance in what? And compared to EBTs exclusively or in general? For example, performance could be relating to bite force, or fighting ability or perhaps even performance in gene penetrance when bred? Or performance in every aspect? I think it's safe to guess you didn't mean show ring performance. But what did you mean? It's not very clear to me. The only comment I'd make at this point is that it's generally very hard to compare average to average of two dog populations. I mean, what's average? Statistically speaking, you'd first have to define two large enough and representative sample sizes to measure what each respective 'average' really entails. Otherwise it's merely a subjective guess, no?
                                                            • [quote1320903143=LeeRobinson] Only in the dreams of an ostrich that has his head in the sand would someone make such a foolish statement. [/quote1320903143] Ostriches don't do that. Also, what?
                                                              • It's a well known bit or sarcasm. That's all. Take your pick...You could be either. Astibus, performance in work.
                                                                • Performance? What work? The word performance is vague and has no context. Everyone keeps flashing that word everywhere these days like people used "game" back in the day. Frankly, it is silly.
                                                                  • [quote]It's a well known bit or sarcasm.[/quote]
                                                                    • [quote1320938370=Igmuska] Performance? What work? The word performance is vague and has no context. Everyone keeps flashing that word everywhere these days like people used "game" back in the day. Frankly, it is silly. [/quote1320938370] Seriously...do you REALLY WANT to get hung upon specifics or somantics. You pick the TYPE of work. Is there any field of competitively and objectively measured working event or task that the EBT can consistently outperform the APBT in? ANY? If not, then lets not worry about specifics or somantics. It only clouds the conversation with a verbosity smoke and mirrors.
                                                                      • [quote1322292674=Pauly] And about the good ones coming from straight hunting stock...I guess that'd be dependant on what you consider good. Some of my favorite ab's in the breed didn't come from a hunting dog for 40 years. Most standard/scott american bulldogs don't even come from a strictly hunting background. [/quote1322292674] Oh I agree. That's why I said: [quote1322292635=Wolf] IF the breed is a boardog, then every single AB should be of such heritage. [/quote1322292635] The "if" part is there for that. Just classify them as multipurpose working dogs and be done with it, ya know? Good post, btw. Missed it on the first glance-over.
                                                                        • isnt the boxer supposed to have a lot of stamina? i thought thats the reason it was used in the dogue brasilerio
                                                                          • Stamina and spunk, same reason why the Boxer is a huge part of the traditional Fila Brasileiro. With the Dogue Brasileiro, you have this idea of giving the Boxer a functional head and the Bullterrier a functional body, since wind is of no use without a mouth and the mouth is no use without wind.
                                                                            • " Oh and the structure of the Boxer, with it's exagggeratedly deep and narrow chest...Well the resultant diminished lung capacity that comes with that form was also reproduced in these dogs. As was its weak heart." then what is this guy talking about? when I see boxers in person their build looks like they are very agile etc. not so short and wide like my dogs. im sure everyone has seen this as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eg2wGKzdc8
                                                                              • [quote]Just classify them as multipurpose working dogs and be done with it, ya know? Good post, btw. Missed it on the first glance-over.[/quote] Thanks, and I agree, I think putting them into one hat is sort of short changing them. I do think catchwork will tell you a lot about a dog, and I think its an important aspect of the breed. As for the op's reply to me, that he's already got a bulldog and doesn't need to see any more. I think you're wrong there fella. If you got out some more and saw some more dogs, you'd have already known that neither a "johnson" or a "scott" dog is inherently better at being a pp dog. What you're asking is a loaded question...do you mean actual pp work, as in a fully proofed dog that walks around with you everywhere under real threat, or do you mean a dog to walk your property's fence at night, or a dog to take out to the training field? "Protection work" is a broad term, and the american bulldog is a broad breed. I stick by what I said originally...get out and see some dogs if you want an answer to your question that you can see with your own two eyes. The best potential protection dog is not one type or another, its an individual dog with the traits your looking for.
                                                                                • Cawkazn, some breeds are good for crossing. That's all there is to it. All the stuff about individual dogs, working and show bloodlines, health selection and everything else is implied, but it boils down to the fact that some families produce better than others and that certain breeds within them are of better use for mixing than perpetuating their own pure form. You can take two crappy dogs of two proper breeds and produce a "bottom" litter of their mutts, but you can take those same lousy mutts and work and test the living daylights out of them and breed them until all the health issues and whatever else genetic ugliness rises up to the top, then cull even harder and select for genuine improvement until you have a bona fide elite worker with stable genetics to which you can forever refer as a cross of "A" and "B" ruined breeds. Or you can only use the best examples of whatever "ruined" breeds thinking that puts you ahead of the curve, by whichever criteria.
                                                                                  • [quote1322367835=Wolf] Cawkazn, some breeds are good for crossing. That's all there is to it. All the stuff about individual dogs, working and show bloodlines, health selection and everything else is implied, but it boils down to the fact that some families produce better than others and that certain breeds within them are of better use for mixing than perpetuating their own pure form. You can take two crappy dogs of two proper breeds and produce a "bottom" litter of their mutts, but you can take those same lousy mutts and work and test the living daylights out of them and breed them until all the health issues and whatever else genetic ugliness rises up to the top, then cull even harder and select for genuine improvement until you have a bona fide elite worker with stable genetics to which you can forever refer as a cross of "A" and "B" ruined breeds. Or you can only use the best examples of whatever "ruined" breeds thinking that puts you ahead of the curve, by whichever criteria. [/quote1322367835] right, so basically you can take some non working dogs, selectively breed them etc. and produce good dogs eventually. i have said the same thing before, though not the same way you said it. and have gotten a definite "no that cannot be done." you can work a crap dog, it just might do crap work..lol
                                                                                    • [quote1322427113=Pauly As for the op's reply to me, that he's already got a bulldog and doesn't need to see any more. I think you're wrong there fella. If you got out some more and saw some more dogs, you'd have already known that neither a "johnson" or a "scott" dog is inherently better at being a pp dog. What you're asking is a loaded question...do you mean actual pp work, as in a fully proofed dog that walks around with you everywhere under real threat, or do you mean a dog to walk your property's fence at night, or a dog to take out to the training field? "Protection work" is a broad term, and the american bulldog is a broad breed. I stick by what I said originally...get out and see some dogs if you want an answer to your question that you can see with your own two eyes. The best potential protection dog is not one type or another, its an individual dog with the traits your looking for. [/quote1322427113] Okay, I AM the OP, once again and as you can see IF you don't choose to look, that my name is acamper, the A stands for ALAN so don't refer to me as fella that sounds condescending. I started the thread as a HYPOTHETICAL AND to get a discussion going, if I recall it was slow at the time. As far as me OWNING an AB, yes I DO and he's ONLY 18 months and I'm VERY satisfied with him so WHY would I NEED to go see other dogs when I'm not in need of one NOW. To clarify I asked in regard to the better NATURAL protector and being a teacher doesn't ALLOW me to GET OUT and see dogs that takes travel AND money but thanks for the suggestion. I guess I also agree with not breed SPECIFICALLY but since I own an American Bulldog I was only concerned with what others thought of MY chosen breed and I'm satisfied no VERY satisfied with MY boy.
                                                                                      • [quote1322429021=Pauly] [quote]Just classify them as multipurpose working dogs and be done with it, ya know? Good post, btw. Missed it on the first glance-over.[/quote] Thanks, and I agree, I think putting them into one hat is sort of short changing them. I do think catchwork will tell you a lot about a dog, and I think its an important aspect of the breed. As for the op's reply to me, that he's already got a bulldog and doesn't need to see any more. I think you're wrong there fella. If you got out some more and saw some more dogs, you'd have already known that neither a "johnson" or a "scott" dog is inherently better at being a pp dog. What you're asking is a loaded question...do you mean actual pp work, as in a fully proofed dog that walks around with you everywhere under real threat, or do you mean a dog to walk your property's fence at night, or a dog to take out to the training field? "Protection work" is a broad term, and the american bulldog is a broad breed. I stick by what I said originally...get out and see some dogs if you want an answer to your question that you can see with your own two eyes. The best potential protection dog is not one type or another, its an individual dog with the traits your looking for. [/quote1322429021] THIS
                                                                                        • [quote1322429806=cawkazn] " Oh and the structure of the Boxer, with it's exagggeratedly deep and narrow chest...Well the resultant diminished lung capacity that comes with that form was also reproduced in these dogs. As was its weak heart." then what is this guy talking about? when I see boxers in person their build looks like they are very agile etc. not so short and wide like my dogs. im sure everyone has seen this as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eg2wGKzdc8 [/quote1322429806] Cawkazn, I have to give MY take on what the poster MAY mean and an observation as well. The Boxer DOES have a REALLY big chest and a VERY small waistline which may be what the poster meant. It's almost like, for those that remember Dudley Do-Right really big upper body no lower body, LOL.
                                                                                          • how does a large chest relate to diminished lung capacity?
                                                                                            • Don't know I'm thinking the PHYSICAL make-up deters their working ability with the BIG front side and SMALL back side. This is JUST my opinion I'm no dog expert only guessing. Hey, YOUR dogs look good from front to back and APPEAR sturdy, only you know your boys and girls? but they appear to be better worker specimens than a dog with a HUGE front side and mini legs.
                                                                                              • Also, the boxer is a bracephalic (SP) which I also hear has an affect on breathing and working ability.
                                                                                                • BRACHYCEPHALIC
                                                                                                  • To Mr. Alan Camper, I did not mean to sound disrespectful, sorry if it came across that way. I often refer to strangers as fella...as do many other folks. If it seems condescending thats on you. I'm glad you're happy with your AB. Frankly, that has nothing to do with anything I've said. I've not tried to sell you on anything. When a person asks a question, usually they are looking for an answer. To get a proper answer often times you're best served by seeing things firsthand. If that somehow is offensive advice, then it'd be a first for me. Right now you're picking at the minutia and missing the meat...which is that your question is too broad to be accurately answered, so a broad response was warranted. Judging by your response, you have no real interest in the answers anyway, so that about does it for me.
                                                                                                    • FYI, Most of the problems with "brachycephalic syndrome" seen in breeds of the head type do not have anything to do with the chest and lung capacity. This can happen as well, but that is another conformational defect that can happen with or without the brachycephalic syndrome problems. Stenotic nares: pinched or small nostrils. Elongated soft palate: Too much soft tissue between naso- and oropharynx. Irregularly small trachea, larynx and epiglottis. These are the primary issues with brachycephalic head conformation. I have seen many cases of airway reconstruction here for these issues. Also, if these issues are kept in mind, these issues can be avoided while still having a clear breathing brachycephalic breed, though the selection against them is a constant and vigilant battle. Diminished wind capacity/lung field can also add to the deficits of the syndrome, but is not exclusive to brachycephalic breeds. There are many conformational faults that can decrease lung capacity/field, but that is another thread...
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