outcross or german boxer?

i know very little re: boxers but have never seen a boxer look that substantial. To me it looks like the addition of some ddb or ab blood.

Looks like a typical european boxer to me, they breed them bulkier over there, as they do with danes. Also agree with workman that it seems a bit cow hocked, think it would be found out if it was used as a pig dog, also due to the short nose to thickness ratio, bad combo for stamina and heat tolerance. Anyway yeah, no need to think it's outcrossed, I think if it was it would have more muzzle. Even if it was outcrossed with a shortfaced dog. A bit more substantial body is not hard to breed for, and that's what europeans have done with boxers and danes. It's automatically applauded but I question whether it's a genuine improvement.

[quote1324110948=Tonedog] Looks like a typical european boxer to me, they breed them bulkier over there, as they do with danes. Also agree with workman that it seems a bit cow hocked, think it would be found out if it was used as a pig dog, also due to the short nose to thickness ratio, bad combo for stamina and heat tolerance. Anyway yeah, no need to think it's outcrossed, I think if it was it would have more muzzle. Even if it was outcrossed with a shortfaced dog. A bit more substantial body is not hard to breed for, and that's what europeans have done with boxers and danes. It's automatically applauded but I question whether it's a genuine improvement. [/quote1324110948] I'm curious if this is indeed JUST a German Boxer with NO outcross, how do the Europeans get the...THICKNESS, and for lack of a better word that more RUGGED look? I'm not doubting I PERSONALLY have NO knowledge about this subject just an interested dog lover looking in. I DO know what cow hocked means though, LOL.

I don't think it's that extreme of a level of thickness. You have to understand the boxer and ambull and alano and etc (and english bulldog for that matter) were all the same dog not too long ago. It's just that these different breeds went in different directions in accordance with the whims of their breeders. The boxer just happened to go in a racey direction with an extremely f'd up muzzle, but it's ancestors were just like the ambull's ancestors, and etc, so it's not such a big deal to breed them back towards that direction of being more solid in the body. Mind you I'm not convinced european boxer breeders have done more than that, more than just getting back some sturdiness/durability/etc by favouring the aesthetic appearance of more solid muscular dogs. I think european boxers are still essentially just as ruined as boxers from elsewhere, just not as lean, which really to me was the last remaining strength of the boxer as a breed- it's athleticism.

[quote1324272114=Tonedog] I don't think it's that extreme of a level of thickness. You have to understand the boxer and ambull and alano and etc (and english bulldog for that matter) were all the same dog not too long ago. It's just that these different breeds went in different directions in accordance with the whims of their breeders. The boxer just happened to go in a racey direction with an extremely f'd up muzzle, but it's ancestors were just like the ambull's ancestors, and etc, so it's not such a big deal to breed them back towards that direction of being more solid in the body. Mind you I'm not convinced european boxer breeders have done more than that, more than just getting back some sturdiness/durability/etc by favouring the aesthetic appearance of more solid muscular dogs. I think european boxers are still essentially just as ruined as boxers from elsewhere, just not as lean, which really to me was the last remaining strength of the boxer as a breed- it's athleticism. [/quote1324272114] LOL, I hear you but is there a way to SPECIFICALLY breed for that musculature? I have also heard that they all have similar backgrounds. LOL at the muzzle but what the American Boxers and their bodybuilder chest and backside that doesn't actually appear to go with the breed.

Agree with you about the DROOL, YUCK! With THAT being said, and it COULD be obvious but is brachycephalic a direct correlation to the drool? English Bulldogs, Bullmastiff, Boerbol/Bullmastiff, (Same dog), Johnson type ABs ALL bracycephalic and BIG DROOLERS.

Oh YEAH and the Boxer, LOL.

Awesome explanation Betsy. I was wondering how the alano could perform the way it does, since it seems to have a shorter muzzle :)

[quote1324475964=Igmuska] After seeing many surgical corrections for brachycephalic syndrome, I am well aware of the anatomical deficiencies of the construction. Interestingly enough, the problems with brachycephalic syndrome is in stenotic nares (pinched nostrils), elongated soft palate, and everted saccules as well as undersized or collapsed tracheas. I have intubated a 60# dog with an endotracheal tube small enough to be the proper size for a cat. These dogs also have decreased lung fields, and this can be an issue in any breed with poor sternebrae and thoracic construction. This is why breeding for excessively stout, barrel chested or "sprung" dogs can cause wind deficiencies regardless of muzzle length. Boxers have a remarkably well constructed thorax; the thorax of a runner. This combined with no soft tissue issues in their upper respiratory tract, means a functional short nosed dog. Boxers have their plague of genetic issues, but BS is typically not one of them. This is why they are considered (to those who know) a great outcross for the bulldog "look" but not the "issues." Here is a link showing these anatomical upper airway deficiencies and the surgical corrections: http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/BrachycephalicSyndrome/ ...just ignore the "short-nose" comment, as that is actually incorrect. :) [/quote1324475964] You are an asset to this forum Betsy. It is actually scary what I read in the article concerning my Bernie. When he gets excited he is starts coughing and clearling his throat very loud :( I always thought it was maybe dry throat or simple excitment but I assume there is a weak construction of his respiratory system. He also favors sleeping with his legs up and he snores like an older drunk man when he is sleeping. The only possitive thing I can say is that he has been able to be exercised in temperatures up to mid 80's. I have done hiking with him, weight pulling and spring workouts in those temperatures and he has never had issues performing. I worked him up to that slowly however, but I never had issues with him over heating during exercise. He might have a mild case of it but it is interesting to know that there is something wrong with him so I can be more careful.

[quote1324483797=Igmuska] After seeing many surgical corrections for brachycephalic syndrome, I am well aware of the anatomical deficiencies of the construction. Interestingly enough, the problems with brachycephalic syndrome is in stenotic nares (pinched nostrils), elongated soft palate, and everted saccules as well as undersized or collapsed tracheas. I have intubated a 60# dog with an endotracheal tube small enough to be the proper size for a cat. These dogs also have decreased lung fields, and this can be an issue in any breed with poor sternebrae and thoracic construction. This is why breeding for excessively stout, barrel chested or "sprung" dogs can cause wind deficiencies regardless of muzzle length. Boxers have a remarkably well constructed thorax; the thorax of a runner. This combined with no soft tissue issues in their upper respiratory tract, means a functional short nosed dog. Boxers have their plague of genetic issues, but BS is typically not one of them. This is why they are considered (to those who know) a great outcross for the bulldog "look" but not the "issues." Here is a link showing these anatomical upper airway deficiencies and the surgical corrections: http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/BrachycephalicSyndrome/ ...just ignore the "short-nose" comment, as that is actually incorrect. :) [/quote1324483797] Okay, I appreciate the explanation but it was ALL Russian to me, and I don't SPEAK Russian, LOL. But I get it Boxers aren't as bad as I've been hearing BUT, I hear it so MUCH.

Okay I'm sorry for repeating the quote didn't see it RIGHT above me, LOL. I CAN admit I am TRULY computer illiterate.

Honestly guys i struggle with the Boxer I know they can be a good PP dog well rounded... Ive seen it..... I'm just not sold i think there are better for the same tasks